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I don't afraid of anything or anyone.
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Paradoxium
Smash Master
Adapt to what? Can you please elaborate I have no idea what you're implying here
Fox has been the same beast for a long time and if changes come to him so might the way he is played.I just think if characters like Ivy get nerfed for her reach so should fox.
Zekk
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2014
- Messages
- 180
Did you forget ice climbers?My opinion after playing a lot of Project M.
S Tier:
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Paradoxium
Smash Master
Any changes to Fox will not change the way he plays, they will probably just be slight tweaks. I'm crossing my fingers for a punishable up smash in the next update
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
YES.
Burning Boom
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2013
- Messages
- 149
DontHate-
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2013
- Messages
- 65
saying that they should be nerfed because characters in the passed have been nerfed for less, is kind of invalid. Even if we don't know it now, those past nerfs could have been a mistake and/or it isn't enough to nerf another character based on a nerf done on another. Once again, Fox's upsmash being nerfed I can understand, but Falco doesn't have anything as crazy as that. His dair, although freaking amazing, is not as safe as fox's upsmash. It gimps amazingly, but so does fox's shine and mario's cape and we don't seem to have a problem with that (as far as I know). It is also much more punishable on stage where as fox can practically throw out up smashes all day and be fine. Wait, what is it that people want to nerf about falco in the first place? Not to mention, I dont see falco played that much on pm or winning tournaments. Can anyone point me to some videos of falco destroying everyone at highlevel play in project M tournament? not that im saying videos justify nerfing/not nerfing, I just need examples. I really do not think it is the same as melee even with the frame data
I know it's M2k, but this is what I mean when I say that falco is much more manageable now. Some characters can deal with him both on and off stage. Fox on the other hand probably would have made it back on the stage in some of those stocks and had more of a chance of winning.
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jtm94
Smash Lord
I like how when I talk about bacon not being that useful anymore and how it could be better I get IMMEDIATELY redirected to a video of Dakpo playing.
THEN, Dakpo himself comes in and is like... yeah bacon could be a lot better because it sends to **** high.
People act like A LOT of the stuff posted here isn't from actual experience. It isn't like I haven't tried playing the character for months or anything. I'm not saying every post is entirely valid, but they are usually based on something.
GnW vs Mewtwo is somewhat more manageable than Marth or Roy, Marth and Roy can combo GnW to the ends of the earth because he is the perfect combo weight for them says my friend who walks me across the stage with fair while I am DIing away in the hope he messes up. Of course spacies are good vs GnW, especially Fox because of how light GnW is, but at least he has guaranteed moves on them like upthrow chaingrabs and dtilt into nair/anything.
Someone said something about Squirtle's SideB. You can grab him out of it. Most people throw stuff at him like it will stop him, just grab him or shield and nair out of shield.
THEN, Dakpo himself comes in and is like... yeah bacon could be a lot better because it sends to **** high.
People act like A LOT of the stuff posted here isn't from actual experience. It isn't like I haven't tried playing the character for months or anything. I'm not saying every post is entirely valid, but they are usually based on something.
GnW vs Mewtwo is somewhat more manageable than Marth or Roy, Marth and Roy can combo GnW to the ends of the earth because he is the perfect combo weight for them says my friend who walks me across the stage with fair while I am DIing away in the hope he messes up. Of course spacies are good vs GnW, especially Fox because of how light GnW is, but at least he has guaranteed moves on them like upthrow chaingrabs and dtilt into nair/anything.
Someone said something about Squirtle's SideB. You can grab him out of it. Most people throw stuff at him like it will stop him, just grab him or shield and nair out of shield.
I think I may have mentioned Squirtle's sideB, I was probably making a joke, but yea, it's not impossible to counter by any means.
On a related note, if anyone struggles with Yoshi's sideB it's the same case with squirtle, you can grab him right out of it.
On a related note, if anyone struggles with Yoshi's sideB it's the same case with squirtle, you can grab him right out of it.
Nguz95
Smash Lord
I know what you mean man. Bacon isn't good in neutral (advantageous positions though). People with swords are a pain to deal with. All that disjoint... Ike isn't so bad imo. I feel that Fox is slightly easier than falco, but that just might be me.
SixSaw
Smash Journeyman
Maybe those nerfs were unnecessary then?
Buffing the rest of the cast up to the level of Melee's best (Fox) seems preferable to me over normalizing the best and worst towards an arbitrary middle-ground, by virtue of the assumption that it's generally more satisfying to play a good character than a bad one.
It's important to distinguish "good" from "broken". Fox is very good, but not broken. He still plays the same fundamental neutral/conversion/punish/techchase/edgeguard game that all the other characters do, just with generally superior options at his disposal in most situations. Being broken means subverting those core principles, ie "breaking the game", which Fox certainly does not. I'm unsure as to whether there's ever been a truly broken character in smash, but traits that might distinguish a character as such could include a truly un-edgeguard-able recovery (negating off-stage play), an inescapable infinite combo with an extremely reliable setup (negating the interactive nature of punishes), some abusable momentum canceling glitch/mechanic that makes them un-KO-able by normal means, etc.
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MagnesD3
Smash Master
I know the spacies where changed slightly but it barely affects anything....
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,550
literally no one wants to play that game. it's full of bull**** and stupidity.
Dude, when I found out that shine wasn't invincible anymore, I dropped fox real quick. I mean, I'm not a f***ing barbarian.
SixSaw
Smash Journeyman
idk, Melee is doing pretty well.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,550
92% of the cast in that game does not fit your description.
Daftatt
"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
This doesn't make any sense in the context of strongbad's post.
MagnesD3
Smash Master
facepalm, sarcasm is hard to read online plz be sarcasm.
Vashimus
Smash Master
Once again for emphasis.
A character does not have to be broken to be eligible to receive balance changes.
SixSaw
Smash Journeyman
My point is that Melee continues to be massively popular despite Fox being more prevalent than ever. It's clear that there are more than a few people perfectly content with that level of "bull**** and stupidity".
...and before someone says it: no, not just Fox mains.
...and before someone says it: no, not just Fox mains.
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Daftatt
"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
haha, that's an understatement. 3.1 hype train is rollin out of the station soon enough.
I think strong bad was making a different point than you thought he was making.
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Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
It is.
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
It doesn't have to do with Fox overall being broken; it's having easy access to stupid bull**** like an incredibly powerful USmash on top of his already incredible neutral game. It's completely unnecessary.
Because it is what it is. The problem here is that we have not only have the ability to change but have been using it as soon as the PMBR decided to redesign all the Brawl characters. If Ike could do dumb **** like triple Fair a character across the stage (because he could in 2.1 which was part of why he was changed), it would have been acceptable in Melee. People would learn to deal with it, yes, but it's undeniable how ******** that is. There's no justifiable reason why, in a game where changes are actively being made, that Fox and Falco are entirely immune to real, impacting changes.
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Nguz95
Smash Lord
Guys, PM is about design, not balance. True balance is a function of good design, not the other way around. It's not that complicated...
SixSaw
Smash Journeyman
I never implied that. Wanting to nerf Fox for being too good is fine although I personally disagree with it. Calling him broken however is inaccurate.
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
This game's goal is character balance, however. Melee's isn't. It doesn't have a goal but to be played and it can't be changed. I feel like a comment about Hax dropping Falcon for Fox is also necessary to put here. Fox is the uncontested best.My point is that Melee continues to be massively popular despite Fox being more prevalent than ever. It's clear that there are more than a few people perfectly content with that level of "bull**** and stupidity".
...and before someone says it: no, not just Fox mains.
Look, character balance and design in Melee was a complete crapshoot. Sakurai wasn't balancing around Wavedashing; he didn't know it could be applied that way. It wasn't balanced around Dash Dancing; Fox and Falco are supposed to be campy characters with a get-off-me move and good speed to get AWAY from their opponents. Shine's comboability together with their good dash speed letting them dominate neutral together with all of their other options were kind of all things that were discovered and flowed together to make these characters really godlike when the meta fully developed. It can't be helped in Melee, but fixing **** like that is the entire point of this mod.
Stop saying bcuz Melee. Melee has not ever been nor ever will be a paragon of large-cast balance.
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Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
"Project M is a community-made mod of Brawl inspired by Super Smash Bros. Melee's gameplay designed to add rich, technical gameplay to a balanced cast of characters"
http://projectmgame.com/en/about
Don't split hairs. And even so, Fox IS a poorly designed character.
Ali Baba 177
Smash Journeyman
So what about wolf? All this talk about fox and some on falco, wolf is in the top ten or top 5! Is wolf better than mario lucas metaknight pit sheik marth? Or does he lack the easy kill power that fox and falco have.
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
It's been stated a lot that Wolf is what a spacie would be like if he didn't have any outstandingly ridiculous factors.
Don't worry, it's sarcasm. unless I'm talking about yoshi or squirtle, it's sarcasm. And even then, it's probably sarcasm. You may remove palm from face now.
Edit: didn't notice Lordling's post
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MLGF
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2013
- Messages
- 1,922
Fox/Falco over-centralizes the Melee meta. Can we agree on that? They're good and as people get better they become more and more centralizing.
As for Project M? I dunno, they haven't been consuming the metagame and generally I see a lot of strong tools to fight spacies, especially Fox, specifically.
Perhaps Fox's Up-Smash is not designed well, I think that appears to be a valid argument. But you guys act like his ENTIRE design is game killing when it's just a few nitpicks.
As for Project M? I dunno, they haven't been consuming the metagame and generally I see a lot of strong tools to fight spacies, especially Fox, specifically.
Perhaps Fox's Up-Smash is not designed well, I think that appears to be a valid argument. But you guys act like his ENTIRE design is game killing when it's just a few nitpicks.
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Vashimus
Smash Master
I love how you're patronizingly trying to drop us knowledge that's not only wrong and misses the point, but also expect to worm your way out of the discussion.
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Nguz95
Smash Lord
Lol. That's not splitting hairs, it's a design philosophy. It's a very important distinction, so remember it.
Also, I never defended Fox. He is poorly designed, but that does not mean everyone else should be brought to his level in order to achieve an arbitrary balance. That's poor design and will shorten the life span of the game. Please don't put words in my mouth.
Edit: I don't care if I'm being patronizing. I'm tired of hearing this conversation come up every few pages. I think the way we are looking at Fox is simplistic at best, and the arguments for and against him reflect that. We tend to focus on individual moves (nerf shine pls. usmash op doe) when we should instead be analyzing the way Fox interacts with the opponent in neutral. Shine doesn't make Fox obscenely good; the way Fox can use shine makes him dangerous. If the PMBR gave Bowser Fox's shine, it would be a cool gimmick, but it ultimately wouldn't affect Bowser that much. Fox can utilize shine (and usmash for that matter) in ways most of the cast can't, which is why he's dangerous.
That's the kind of critical thinking the PMBR is doing. They don't make millions of edits to each character on a move to move basis. They change things based on how the character in question can use them to interact with his opponent.They pursue design first, and let balance follow. That's the mindset that has made PM so successful.
I'm sorry for being harsh. Really, I am, but I'm simply not interested in rehashing the same argument we've gone through a million times already in this thread alone.
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Daftatt
"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
if I could get a reason fox is considered poorly designed, that would be enlightening.
Empyrean
Smash Champion
Fox, causing flame wars in the community since 2014.
Most prolly even earlier than that.
Most prolly even earlier than that.
SixSaw
Smash Journeyman
This is all relative though. You see fox's upsmash as "stupid", but in the context of a game like Melee where there's 0 precedent for any real attempt at balance by the devs, you could just as easily say Fox's usmash is perfectly sensible and every other character is simply lacking. Sure 2.1 Ike would have been acceptable in Melee, because at this point Melee defines what "acceptable" is. The whole reason PM and this community exists is because people liked how Melee did things. However flawed it is, those flaws obviously aren't big enough to stop many people from playing.
All I'm trying to say is that we have an existing formula to build on which has already demonstrated undeniable mass appeal (Melee's comp metagame). Choosing to tamper with it may have unforeseen negative consequences and should not be taken lightly. It's not so much the act of giving Fox meaningful nerfs itself as the precedent it sets for nothing being off limits, and it's my personal belief that PM is better off in the long run if some things are kept off limits. Particularly in the immediate future while there are still characters whom most unanimously agree are in need of buffs, there are much better uses of the PMBR's time.
Daftatt
"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
my impression of the actions of the PMBR so far as in character design is that representation comes before balance. Being that you have to make people want to play a character before anyone knows if they are truly good/bad in the metagame. Even if fox or falco didn't really get creative input from the PMBR in their design, they are so hugely popular that changing anything significantly is a little crazy. Also I feel that in general, the melee top tiers (excluding ice climbers) serve as an anchor in the otherwise wet metagame (and character design!), and thereby are immune to experimentation to a large degree.
http://smashboards.com/rankings/project-m.4/league/teams
http://smashboards.com/rankings/project-m.4/league/teams
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