Tier List Speculation

[B.W.]

So let's say you have a matchup where Zelda dominates the on-stage game but struggles to edge-guard yet for Sheik it's the other way around. Any time you knock them off stage far enough you transform, edgegaurd, then switch back. How are you not using 'Sheilda' at that point?

Even in melee where Zelda's only use is a longer recovery, you're not just using Sheik, you're using a combination of the two to maximize your options.

Doesn't matter. Just cause you're using both doesn't mean you're using an all new character. You're just switching characters mid match cause Zelda/Sheik can do that. Matchup data literally just changes when you hit down-B.

Just cause Sheik might be better off stage vs a character with Zelda being better on stage doesn't mean you're using some all new character. And so it's stupid to list things as such.

 

[Time2Play]

Doesn't matter. Just cause you're using both doesn't mean you're using an all new character. You're just switching characters mid match cause Zelda/Sheik can do that. Matchup data literally just changes when you hit down-B.

Just cause Sheik might be better off stage vs a character with Zelda being better on stage doesn't mean you're using some all new character. And so it's stupid to list things as such.

Your logic is incorrect if you just want to use Zeldas MU chart once you switch. It's not that simple. If you switch to Zelda, for example because she has a really good edgeguard game vs character x, her overall MU against this character might be really bad because of the neutral game. So while Sheik (bad edgeguard) and Zelda (bad neutral) might have a bad matchup against this character, Shielda, on the other hand, would have a really good matchup. Sheik would dominate the onstage game and Zelda dominates the edgeguard game. This is off course only a theoretical example, but it still proves my point.
By only taking single MU charts you block out the possibility to combine positive aspects of both characters for a specifig MU.

 

[B.W.]

Matchup charts represent a matchup overall, not the entire character matchup. If you use each character to cover weakness vs other characters you're still not using a new character.

Just cause one is better in one area while the other is better in another and you use both in their stronger areas doesn't mean you're changing Zelda's or Sheik's matchups. Their matchups as different characters stay the same, whether they can cover each other or not.

 

[Time2Play]

Yes, but Shielda would have her own MU chart and it would differ to Sheik and Zeldas chart.
And while Sheik and Zelda might have a bad MU vs Character x, Shielda might have a good MU against this character. So you can't just take the single MU charts and transfer it to Shielda, that doesn't work.

 

[Dakpo]

I totally agree that I would like to hear his thoughts on the matter. Does he frequent smashboards?
.

Every day! I just enjoying reading what you guys say

 

[Terotrous]

Every day! I just enjoying reading what you guys say

So how do you feel about GW in the current version of PM?

 

[Ali Baba 177]

Can you show us what the results are so far?

No cause then people that would vote after I posted results yet far wouldn't vote honestly. - lets say they honestly think anonymous character is mid tier, but the current results show him as near to last, then he might be voted near to top in order to bring him up in the list. I want people to vote honestly so I will post the results probably near the end of the month so it can kinda show the community opinion of march.

 

[Vashimus]

The problem is that SSB is NOWHERE NEAR LIKE ANY OTHER FIGHTING GAME IN THE HISTORY OF EVER. In this game, health is NOT as important as stock. They CORRELATE, but you can lose a stock, which ultimately leads to losing the game, regardless of health. That is why decreasing akuma's health in every update won't make any sense because health in that game is STRICTLY PROPORTIONATE to winning the game.

Note: Caps are not to scream, I just want to emphasize the point.

Smash still follows character archetypes of fighting games despite not having the same core fundamentals. You have your glass cannon characters, you have big burly bruisers that are hard to kill, you have your defensive zoning characters, etc. The same way Bowser can take a lot of punishment before losing a stock is the same way Zangief can take a lot before losing the round. Smash is not a unique snowflake in that department.

If a character has lower health/easier than kill than almost anyone in the cast (on paper), but have among the best offensive capabilities of anyone in the game, guess what? They're still one of the best characters in the game. Whether it's Fox, Akuma, Zero, Phoenix, Magneto, Taokaka, Millia, Akiha, whatever. Fraility DOES NOT completely balance out a character's extreme offensive capabilities. It never has, never will. So I'm not trying to hear because Fox can die and be comboed so easily (again, on paper. Never mind he's one of the fastest characters in the game and you have to catch him first), it justifies having a ridiculously strong and very safe up-smash.

 

[guedes the brawler]

Matchup charts represent a matchup overall, not the entire character matchup. If you use each character to cover weakness vs other characters you're still not using a new character.

Just cause one is better in one area while the other is better in another and you use both in their stronger areas doesn't mean you're changing Zelda's or Sheik's matchups. Their matchups as different characters stay the same, whether they can cover each other or not.

Let's say that hypothetically this is how the match-up with Falco looks like (cause i don't really know that, it's just an example)

Shiek can easily deal with Falco offstage, but she has trouble with actually sending him there.
Zelda can easily send Falco offstage but she has trouble with KO'ing and gimping him.


This would mean that one could use Zelda, send falco away, transform and gimp Falco. That method would be more effective than sticking with one or the other.

 

[The_NZA]

Let's say that hypothetically this is how the match-up with Falco looks like (cause i don't really know that, it's just an example)

Shiek can easily deal with Falco offstage, but she has trouble with actually sending him there.
Zelda can easily send Falco offstage but she has trouble with KO'ing and gimping him.


This would mean that one could use Zelda, send falco away, transform and gimp Falco. That method would be more effective than sticking with one or the other.

Consider how fast Falco's jump to side b is and how slow transform is, and I think this edgeguard methodology becomes impossible. In some matchups though it could work (takes a while for ganon to down b to up b).

 

[Dakpo]

So how do you feel about GW in the current version of PM?

He's fine. His entire metagame changed when they nerfed bacon by adding lag. He became a lot slower imo and a lot of match ups became a lot harder :/ I hate that they nerfed such an important part when it wasnt needed. Much like they did with DDDs Up B nerfs. He needs at least 1 fast throw and I wish bacon didn't go so high, or would fall lower, but the character is pretty much done. It would be great if he was still heavier, but that might be asking too much.
His aerials are great. I never really thought about brawl Dair. I can't remember if it pops them up or not. I do like the idea of the fast fall and how you can change the speed in brawl. But his dair is pretty good as it is. Nair is super necessary.
He's great against big characters and ok against the rest of the cast ( besides ivy and any character with a sword). So besides the faster throw, the character should be done. We just need better players for the character. Look at fly and DDD or me and GnW. It just takes a good player to make the character.#strongbad #linkbuffs

Speaking of which, I wouldn't call Wario one of G&W's worst matchups. Let's see him do this to MK, Lucas or a Space animal.

Ask Mouse, K9, and Pink Fresh how there match's against me at apex went. Space animals are tough though.

 

[guedes the brawler]

Consider how fast Falco's jump to side b is and how slow transform is, and I think this edgeguard methodology becomes impossible. In some matchups though it could work (takes a while for ganon to down b to up b).

hypothetically...

 

[Ripple]

Look at fly and DDD

for real though, I don't like not being being known apparently. on the Xanadu stream last night, people had never even heard of me playing DDD but they were all over Fly being the one and only DDD

 

[Warhawk]

Would anyone NOT say they were broken in Melee? 80% of Melee's cast is not viable because Fox and Falco are just way too good.

Honestly I think that Sheik had way more to do with around 16/26 of melee's cast being unviable than Fox and Falco did. Decent characters like Ganon and Samus, while disadvantaged still at least had a chance against Fox and Falco, but against any competent Sheik they have basically no chance. Characters that had impossible space animal matchups was due more in part to them being so bad then the space animals being so good. Bowser and Kirby get destroyed by basically anybody Link tier and above, that's hardly the space animal's fault. They're still really good, but they hardly alone ruined the rest of the cast.

If a character has lower health/easier than kill than almost anyone in the cast (on paper), but have among the best offensive capabilities of anyone in the game, guess what? They're still one of the best characters in the game. Whether it's Fox, Akuma, Zero, Phoenix, Magneto, Taokaka, Millia, Akiha, whatever. Fraility DOES NOT completely balance out a character's extreme offensive capabilities. It never has, never will. So I'm not trying to hear because Fox can die and be comboed so easily (again, on paper. Never mind he's one of the fastest characters in the game and you have to catch him first), it justifies having a ridiculously strong and very safe up-smash.

I am not very knowledgeable in those other games, but I would say that just because a character has great offensive abilities doesn't mean the character is automatically going to be broken or even top 5. The issue with Fox (and its probably the same issue with a lot of those characters if I had to guess) is that he's not really completely "frail". His recovery and tech rolls are actually good and his shield is as well. I think that weakening his tech rolls or recovery will do more for the other characters in this game against him than some upsmash nerf will. He's still Fox, its not that much more difficult for him to get a nair and a laser more per stock or whatever to kill you.

 

[Dakpo]

for real though, I don't like not being being known apparently. on the Xanadu stream last night, people had never even heard of me playing DDD but they were all over Fly being the one and only DDD

I know of you, I second DDD. In fact, I watched the set with you vs hungry box, but Fly has a special place in my mind because he bested Sethlon not once! but twice! Its still overwhelming to think of people being able to beat sethlon -__-. He also got into top 8 at apex. When people see amazing results like that, its hard to watch anyone but the best. (I'm not saying your not a great DDD)

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

UpSmash/Uair is not really the problem. Link's Dthrow -> Dair kills at around the same percent. Mario's Dthrow -> Fair too, and can't be SDI'd out of (slightly easier to DI though). The issue is more how Fox can easily land that grab, or that Up-Smash. His neutral is overpowering and he has the ability to really force your hand, whether it's by Dash-Dancing, run-away lasers or whatever. Fox's neutral is too good and he's above average in every department. Dude has no weaknesses and Falco is scarily close.

If you don't think Fox is borked in Melee, watch M2K v/s HBox at RoM7. Yes, his execution was on point because a mistake against a heavy punish character is costly, but even with the gimp queen in Melee he was able to emply the same laser to 160% strategy over and over again.

@ Ripple : Your match against Zinoto was really fun to watch, and your friendly with Metroid is the most hype thing I've ever seen. No tournie, no stakes, but I was screaming in my chair during that fight.

 

[B.W.]

Let's say that hypothetically this is how the match-up with Falco looks like (cause i don't really know that, it's just an example)

Shiek can easily deal with Falco offstage, but she has trouble with actually sending him there.
Zelda can easily send Falco offstage but she has trouble with KO'ing and gimping him.


This would mean that one could use Zelda, send falco away, transform and gimp Falco. That method would be more effective than sticking with one or the other.

Which is fine, but that doesn't make either character Sheilda. Let's take a look at this with another set of characters. Samus/ZSS vs Marth and assume that they can switch back and forth willingly.

Let's say that hypothetically
Samus vs Marth is a bad matchup on stage but Samus does better keeping Marth off stage
ZSS vs Marth is a good matchup on stage but she has some trouble keeping Marth off stage.

Should we call the use of both "Sometimes Suit Samus?" No because if you switch to Samus mid match for any reason you're talking away your on stage advantage vs Marth. So if you're edgeguarding Marth, and he makes it back you're going to be stuck as Samus unless he gives you breathing room or you manage to get him away from you again.

The only way this matchup could be considered drastically different is if the character's transform method lasted 1 frame, thus making changing characters a safe action allowing you to do it literally any time. But because it doesn't, you are forced to keep those weaknesses until you can make space to change back to the other character.

This is why you can't look at the character as 3 different characters. Zelda is Zelda and Sheik is Sheik. Both of these characters just have the ability to switch to each other without the stage select screen.

 

[DontHate-]

The argument that glass cannon characters have their offensive capabilities being "balanced out" by their relative frailty and therefore should be less eligible for nerfs hasn't held much weight in any fighter in the history of ever. They're (almost always) still extremely dangerous characters in spite of that. Capcom never balances Akuma by just lowering his health every update and calling it a day.

Smash still follows character archetypes of fighting games despite not having the same core fundamentals. You have your glass cannon characters, you have big burly bruisers that are hard to kill, you have your defensive zoning characters, etc. The same way Bowser can take a lot of punishment before losing a stock is the same way Zangief can take a lot before losing the round. Smash is not a unique snowflake in that department.

Those last two sentences are where, I believe, you are misunderstanding the concept of health CORRELATED with losing the game and health CAUSING you to lose the game. Also, stocks and rounds are not the same.

Bowser can take a lot of punishment before losing a stock, however, Bowser can also take very little punishment before losing a stock.

To put it into perspective, bowser can take two punches at the beginning of a stock--> grabbed--> thrown off--> then gimped on his last stock which leads him to losing the game. Zangief can take 2 jabs at the beginning and NOT LOSE THE ROUND for all the rounds he is given. As I mentioned before, the probability of you losing a round after losing all your health in a SF game is 100%. In melee, you can lose a stock no matter what the percentage is and you can also keep a stock no matter what the percentages is. Because of this, we can not compare the two games because even though, as you stated, CHARACTERS may have similar fundamentals between melee and SF (which I also disagree with but we wont get into that), the fundamentals of WINNING AND LOSING are not the same.

If a character has lower health/easier than kill than almost anyone in the cast (on paper), but have among the best offensive capabilities of anyone in the game, guess what? They're still one of the best characters in the game.

One thing I want to point out is that it is fine if fox is one of the best in the game. BROKENESS is what we are concerned with not whether a character is extremely good. We all know fox is beast, but is if he is "broken" is a different argument.

Whether it's Fox, Akuma, Zero, Phoenix, Magneto, Taokaka, Millia, Akiha, whatever. Fraility DOES NOT completely balance out a character's extreme offensive capabilities. It never has, never will. So I'm not trying to hear because Fox can die and be comboed so easily (again, on paper. Never mind he's one of the fastest characters in the game and you have to catch him first), it justifies having a ridiculously strong and very safe up-smash.

Frailty does balance out the extreme offensive capabilities. That is why most characters you mentioned (I don't know all of them) are simply considered extremely good BUT NOT BROKEN. BROKEN was Sentinel (Im not sure if he is different now from day 1 sentinel in MVC3 vanilla) because he had INSANE offensive and INSANE defensive capabilities. Falco does not fall under that category. falco has AMAZING offense but **** recovery RELATIVE TO the MAJORITY of the cast in ProjectM (very important that I am not referring melee here). Unfortunately , people now a days group fox and falco so much because of melee that they actually believe that because fox has good recovery, then so does falco. That is not true at all, ESPECIALLY in pm where there are NEW gimping and/or off stage scenarios that falco CAN NOT come back from but fox STILL can. So in PM ,Falco has **** recovery. In melee, it was decent/ good at best because these new characters and scenarios were not available. So nerfing Falco's offense will hurt him much more than a lot of people think.

I believe people need to get the idea of "melee falco= PM falco because of frame data" out of their heads.

Now nerfing FoX 's upsmash specifically, on the other hand; I can reason with.

He has better offense than falco and OBJECTIVELY much better recovery than falco, putting fox at a category where he has INSANE offense and VERY GOOD recovery RELATIVE TO the MAJORITY of the cast.

 

[Strong Badam]

for real though, I don't like not being being known apparently. on the Xanadu stream last night, people had never even heard of me playing DDD but they were all over Fly being the one and only DDD

happened for years with DK for me. I eventually surpassed all of the DKs that were playing at the time, before realizing that being the best DK wasn't something I cared about anymore, and people still didn't recognize me for my accomplishments. sad to say but you'll prob always live in the shadow of Fly until you get comparable results, it's just how it goes. people are quick to latch on to 1 player, but very slow to latch on to another.

B.W.: Samus and ZSS cannot transform.

DontHate: It's "nerfing" not "nurfing". Just had to mention that lol.

 

[Ripple]

I know of you, I second DDD. In fact, I watched the set with you vs hungry box, but Fly has a special place in my mind because he bested Sethlon not once! but twice! Its still overwhelming to think of people being able to beat sethlon -__-. He also got into top 8 at apex. When people see amazing results like that, its hard to watch anyone but the best. (I'm not saying your not a great DDD)

I got top 8 at the second largest PM tournament though .

 

[Saproling]

I got top 8 at the second largest PM tournament though .

I remember watching you play.

 

[Terotrous]

He's great against big characters and ok against the rest of the cast ( besides ivy and any character with a sword). So besides the faster throw, the character should be done. We just need better players for the character. Look at fly and DDD or me and GnW. It just takes a good player to make the character.#strongbad #linkbuffs

Space animals are tough though.

To me, a character that has trouble with Ivy, sword users, and space animals probably needs a little help, cause that's a pretty substantial portion of the cast (I assume he also has trouble with Mewtwo because his tail is kind of like a sword). Particularly if his only advantage matchups are vs the big guys.

I still think the return of Brawl Dair should be looked at. I don't think it would lose any utility over his current Dair, and it helps out in a number of situations.

 

[Vashimus]

@ DontHate- If you honestly think a character has to reach a point of "brokeness" before they can eligible for balance changes, then we are beyond reaching any sort of middle ground, because that's just not how things work.

2.6 Ivysaur, 2.1 Ike and 2.1 Lucario were not broken by the way, yet were still given balance changes that were for the most part justified. Not to mention normal characters get nerfs all the time. At this point, you might as well be picking favorites.

 

[didds]

I got top 8 at the second largest PM tournament though .

I always thought your melee DK was nice.

maybe if you change your name from Ripple to Ocean you'll be able to make more waves....



Edit: that was uncalled for and I've brought shame to my family

 

[GP&B]

For that matter, Ike wasn't broken at any point. He had dumb design elements about him, but he still had all of the same exploitable weaknesses he had before (dealing with pressure).

 

[Vashimus]

Yeah, kinda like Fox has right now. HOW 'BOUT THAT SH*T

 

[didds]

I don't like the sh*t one bit, I prefer making Ripple jokes consisting of pathetic puns

 

[Strong Badam]

i feel like 90% of the reason fox/falco players are so against changes is because when you nerf a character you kind of imply that wins earned and skill displayed with those characters were illegitimate and fraudulent

kinda makes you wonder how the players of literally every other character in the game must feel

 

[didds]

i feel like 90% of the reason fox/falco players are so against changes is because when you nerf a character you kind of imply that wins earned and skill displayed with those characters were illegitimate and fraudulent

kinda makes you wonder how the players of literally every other character in the game must feel

makes me feel mighty for slipping around with squirtle

 

[GP&B]

Yeah, kinda like Fox has right now. HOW 'BOUT THAT SH*T

Exactly. Having an exemplary neutral game is a trait about Fox that should never be changed, even if it is a bit on the extremely powerful side. It's the tools he gets out of conversions that are just silly. Having one of the strongest and simultaneously close to safest USmashes in the game on a character that has very few issues leading into it, let alone getting away with whiffing on a lot of the slower characters is stupid.

 

[Terotrous]

i feel like 90% of the reason fox/falco players are so against changes is because when you nerf a character you kind of imply that wins earned and skill displayed with those characters were illegitimate and fraudulent

kinda makes you wonder how the players of literally every other character in the game must feel

The ironic thing is that players of characters who need help often have the same opinion, but for the opposite reason.

"I'm so godlike with this character that it doesn't even matter if they're good!"

 

[Blade-Fox]

i feel like 90% of the reason fox/falco players are so against changes is because when you nerf a character you kind of imply that wins earned and skill displayed with those characters were illegitimate and fraudulent

It's sort of already like that. You get "sighs" and "looks" as soon as the announcer goes "Fox!"

 

[KhanYe]

Fox's usmash should be nerfed without doubt, so many worse moves on worse characters have been nerfed, I don't see how there's even a debate. He'd still be one of the best characters in the game even if his upsmash was a taunt.

Falco's recovery is so bad relative to the rest of the cast that I don't think he needs to be nerfed, he's easily comboed and easily gimped.

I realize most of this has been said, but I felt like it needed to be repeated.

 

[Deleted member]

i feel like 90% of the reason fox/falco players are so against changes is because when you nerf a character you kind of imply that wins earned and skill displayed with those characters were illegitimate and fraudulent

kinda makes you wonder how the players of literally every other character in the game must feel

yo let's nerf fox

and he'll be mid-tier

like 20th out of 41 characters

LOL

 

[Paradoxium]

i feel like 90% of the reason fox/falco players are so against changes is because when you nerf a character you kind of imply that wins earned and skill displayed with those characters were illegitimate and fraudulent

kinda makes you wonder how the players of literally every other character in the game must feel

I'm 90% sure people don't want Fox/Falco changed because they don't think that they are broken.

It's an idea that has been debated for AGES!!!!!!!

 

[DontHate-]

happened for years with DK for me. I eventually surpassed all of the DKs that were playing at the time, before realizing that being the best DK wasn't something I cared about anymore, and people still didn't recognize me for my accomplishments. sad to say but you'll prob always live in the shadow of Fly until you get comparable results, it's just how it goes. people are quick to latch on to 1 player, but very slow to latch on to another.

B.W.: Samus and ZSS cannot transform.

DontHate: It's "nerfing" not "nurfing". Just had to mention that lol.

Yes it is. I need to start proof reading more lol.

 

[Strong Badam]

I'm 90% sure people don't want Fox/Falco changed because they don't think that they are broken.

It's an idea that has been debated for AGES!!!!!!!

you have to be kidding yourself to think they don't pose a clear threat to the game's balance, especially when characters have been nerfed for much, much less before.

max all i do is play mid-tier characters and make people think they're broken lmao

 

[Paradoxium]

you have to be kidding yourself to think they don't pose a clear threat to the game's balance, especially when characters have been nerfed for much, much less before.

I didn't imply a bias in my previous statement, I was just saying why most people are against changes.

Don't get fresh wit me dawg or ima put yo ass on blast. I ain't afraid to hit a *****

 

[DontHate-]

@ DontHate- If you honestly think a character has to reach a point of "brokeness" before they can eligible for balance changes, then we are beyond reaching any sort of middle ground, because that's just not how things work.

2.6 Ivysaur, 2.1 Ike and 2.1 Lucario were not broken by the way, yet were still given balance changes that were for the most part justified. Not to mention normal characters get nerfs all the time. At this point, you might as well be picking favorites.

What i'm saying is that there is simply a misunderstanding of the definition of broken. You might think broken is defined in one sense while I may think it's another.

I believe that when something get's nerfed it is because it was above a particular threshold that we would not find acceptable. Once we do not find it acceptable, then I categorize it as broken. If it is acceptable, then it should not be nerfed. I think we are speaking about different things but using the same word .

 

[Saproling]

I'm 90% sure people don't want Fox/Falco changed because they don't think that they are broken.

It's an idea that has been debated for AGES!!!!!!!

You just don't want to have to learn to adapt.