Tier List Speculation

[Terotrous]

Okay, so I figure that I should finally try an actual tierlist that includes everyone. Not ordered within tiers.

S Tier:




A Tier:




B Tier:




C Tier:




D Tier:




Of all characters, Falcon and Toon Link were hardest to place, I feel they're both very borderline between B and C. Ivy, Mewtwo, and Lucas all might prove to be S, I feel that these three plus Fox and Falco are top 5.

Basically, S tier represents characters who are a little too good. A tier are all the really good characters. B tier is also good, but they either are slightly outclassed by someone in A tier or their matchups just aren't quite as good. C tier is okay but has significant matchup trouble. D tier is just bad and loses to most of the cast.

A and B tier represent optimal balance. Characters in C tier need a little bit of help. Characters in D tier need a lot of help. Characters in S tier need to be toned down a tad.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

With regards to Luigi, I don't think he's that bad at all. He has a good combo game and is simultaneously resilient to any combos you throw his way, so in any given matchup (save a few) he's likely capable of better combos than his opponent.
I'd say his biggest flaw is that (and this is a bit speculative), while he covers lots of ground quickly and threatens large areas with strong hitboxes, he isn't particularly good at doing both at once. That is, he sacrifices the option to use his best hitboxes for mobility and when mobile he does not have access to his biggest or easily convertible hitboxes since they're often aerial. In my experience this makes his combo game feel a little underwhelming at first, since a consistently safe pseudo-approach might only lead to a knockdown at best, and it takes a good chase off of that to get something good started (luckily Luigi's great on the chase, thanks to his WD). It's easy to see where this might lack compared to the top dogs that can keep the same kind of large, high-duration, draggable hitboxes glued to their person while staying far more mobile all the while.
Not to say Luigi's movement capabilities can't be used to fix these shortcomings in the future (Maybe with WD ftilts? At least if he can manage to threaten space with them without overcommiting. That's probably for a better Luigi player than me to answer).
If anything, Luigi just takes a lot more patience than you'd expect, given his wacky, undpredictable feel. I'd sort of relate him to Falcon in that sense.

 

[kevinw0w]

I agree with almost all of this, besides a few exceptions:

I think Lucas should be in S tier, Peach and MK in B, Snake and Lucario in A, Olimar in D, G&W in C

 

[DontHate-]

I know my opinion might not mean much, but I strongly believe that the idea of fox/falco being best characters in game might have to be reconsidered for project M. Yes they are good, and yes, their frame data was taken directly from melee, but the match up is extremely different now. Since there are now so many good characters that have amazing recovery and amazing on stage game, they can deal with falco/ fox on stage and destroy them as soon as they are off. In melee, getting falco/ fox off stage was not easy because their on stage game was amazing relative to the other characters. It is nowhere near the same now. There are most certainly characters that can not only keep up, but simply out play them both on and off stage and do very well vs. the rest of the cast.
Look at a character like MK. He is extremely fast and can keep up with fox/falco on stage and absolutely destroy them the moment they get off stage regardless of how a falco/ fox may try to mix up recovery. Fox/falco were Gods in melee, but with characters like Pit, MK, and even mario, it's not so easy to say that Falco/fox should be S tier by themselves. They should either be put in High A tier or have some other characters join the S Tier with them. Just my opinion and I'm sure many will disagree :/.

 

[Terotrous]

I agree with almost all of this, besides a few exceptions:

I think Lucas should be in S tier, Peach and MK in B, Snake and Lucario in A, Olimar in D, G&W in C

I can't see any argument that puts MK anywhere less than A. He's just so fast, has good disjoints, and great recovery. He's not quite a spacie, but he's getting there. I also feel Peach is safely A because of float, it gives her one of the best and safest approaches in the game, and now that projectiles have gotten so much better that's more important than ever.

Lucario is a big question mark. He's got a million tools to work with, and seems like he could potentially walk all over you, but somehow no one's quite managed to put it all together yet. I could definitely see him moving up but I feel the evidence is not there for it yet. I feel Snake is safely B tier. His stage control is among the best (even then Diddy and Ivy match him here, as does ROB, who is also B tier), but I feel his normals and combo game just aren't up to A tier standards.

I was originally of the opinion that Olimar was C. He is clearly no higher than B, because Ivy is better than him in almost every way. However, even being a worse Ivysaur is not terrible because Ivysaur is so good. His side B and UpSmash are still huge threats, and he has good aerials too. I'm still not happy about the 4 pikmin nerf, but he can clearly still be used well.

Personally, I think G&W is the dead last, even after Jiggs. There are no words to describe my seething hatred for what they did to this character, because I really enjoyed him in Brawl. I want absolutely everything about him that was changed put back how it was.

 

[Terotrous]

I know my opinion might not mean much, but I strongly believe that the idea of fox/falco being best characters in game might have to be reconsidered for project M. Yes they are good, and yes, their frame data was taken directly from melee, but the match up is extremely different now. Since there are now so many good characters that have amazing recovery and amazing on stage game, they can deal with falco/ fox on stage and destroy them as soon as they are off.

In practical terms it's just not quite as easy as it sounds. First of all, you have to get the space animal off the stage. At low percentages, this basically requires a throw off the edge, because due to their fast fall they do not fly far when hit by regular attacks. Since spacies know this is so dangerous for them, they'll try to avoid this situation. You can't just wait at the edge, they'll fire lasers at you rather than coming in. Spacies also tend to like big, flat stages, like Pokemon Stadium 2, Smashville, and FD, where they can stay towards the middle and avoid potential gimps, and will pick these levels whenever they can.

In high level play, you typically see a spacie gimp about 75% of matches, costing them one stock at maybe 40% or so. The problem is, the spacies tend to kill at lower percentages than the rest of the cast (typically 100-120%, whereas the rest of the cast is more like 120-140%), so they basically make up the percentage they lose from the gimp on their other stocks.

If you brought the spacies' kill power in line with the rest of the cast, then the threat of the gimp would start to become pretty significant, and it'd probably put them in line with the rest of the cast. Right now, it's not so much the case that a gimp can give you an easy win so much as you absolutely have to get a gimp to keep up.

 

[DMG]

Fox is god. Falco has a better argument for being much worse off than Melee.

 

[Terotrous]

Fox is god. Falco has a better argument for being much worse off than Melee.

I agree that if one was to drop to A tier, it'd be Falco, but even then Falco is still very scary in his own right. Dair is still totally ridonkulous, and lasers are still great.

I could MAYBE see Falco as low as 6th overall, after the aforementioned Fox, Ivy, Mewtwo, Lucas, and Metaknight. No lower though.

It's worth noting that my proposed Falco adjustment (Dair requires sweetspot hit for spike) does not really nerf his overall potential, it just forces you to be more precise with him. This is less severe than the change I want for Fox (UpSmash has less kill power), which is a straight nerf.

 

[Kati]

Yeah, I use Zair a lot against anyone who's not too short to get hit by it.

The main reason I'm a bit uncomfortable rating Samus right now is because of Ice Beam. So far, Fire Beam seems better for pretty much everything. Has anyone found any situations where Ice Beam is clearly the better choice?

Floaty characters like zelda, puff, or a camping peach have trouble with ice missiles. Obviously, the ice upsmash also helps as an anti-air attack when facing those slow airborne characters. Against a character like Ganon, I find I don't need the power of a regular super missile, so the speed of an ice super helps increase pressure. Ice d-tilt, or as I call it, the ice spreader, edge-guards Ganon with little to no thought required.

Ice missiles can also gimp Ness hard, but I'm sure a player could adapt by using pk2 closer to the stage (but very low).

Otherwise, flamethrower all the way (so far).

 

[DontHate-]

In practical terms it's just not quite as easy as it sounds. First of all, you have to get the space animal off the stage. At low percentages, this basically requires a throw off the edge, because due to their fast fall they do not fly far when hit by regular attacks. Since spacies know this is so dangerous for them, they'll try to avoid this situation. You can't just wait at the edge, they'll fire lasers at you rather than coming in. Spacies also tend to like big, flat stages, like Pokemon Stadium 2, Smashville, and FD, where they can stay towards the middle and avoid potential gimps, and will pick these levels whenever they can.

In high level play, you typically see a spacie gimp about 75% of matches, costing them one stock at maybe 40% or so. The problem is, the spacies tend to kill at lower percentages than the rest of the cast (typically 100-120%, whereas the rest of the cast is more like 120-140%), so they basically make up the percentage they lose from the gimp on their other stocks.

If you brought the spacies' kill power in line with the rest of the cast, then the threat of the gimp would start to become pretty significant, and it'd probably put them in line with the rest of the cast. Right now, it's not so much the case that a gimp can give you an easy win so much as you absolutely have to get a gimp to keep up.

Ok, from my understanding, the object of the game is to increase the characters percentage to make it easier to knock them off stage. The implication im getting from you is that because you is that because it is hard to kill fox and falco at low percentages, then therefore, it is not easy to kill them at all.
We'll, following that logic, Metaknight is not easy to kill at low percentages, but MK is not being talked about for getting a nurf. Why? Well there are several, but many times it is easy to kill MK from the top (not so much with falco but definitely with fox), right? We'll now I'll simply use your argument and say that metaknight knows this and will play keep away with his gazillion jumps or camp on the ledge etc. We can go back and forth and we won't get anywhere.

Even if my analogy was horrible, the point I'm trying to make is that getting a kill at low percentage should be considered more of a fluke rather than a consistent option because you simply can't kill the majority of the cast at low percentages; it is simply how the game of super smash brothers is played. So this idea of not being able to kill fox and falco at low percentages practically applies to most of the cast. The fact that the spacies have this massive hole in their game (i.e being able to die at 0% in the first place) pretty much balances out their good onstage game. Not to mention their recovery options become obsolete once they are at a distance where it's almost depressing that they couldn't come back. Oh and one more thing, their onstage game is not as lopsided as it was before because of the amazing play styles of the rest of the cast on stage in pm. The best I can say is that we truly need to wait till the metagame evolves and I'm almost certain that we will soon be laughing at the idea of nurfing fox/falco

Also, I was a bit confused about how you equated fox/falco losing a stock to the advantages they have at killing at about 10-20% less than the cast. First and foremost, to say that the 10-20% kill advantage is equivalent (in any way) to the loss of a stock seems very out of place. It is almost as if we forgot that the opponent can still apply mind games and wreck havoc at 160-200%. Not to mention, they can even kill fox and falco while they have 160% and falco/fox with 10%. You don't win by having lower percentages, you win by taking stocks, which become easier as the percentages become higher. But simply because it becomes easier does not mean it is guaranteed, especially in high level play. Thanks a lot for clearing things up though and giving me a different perspective. I appreciate it! And although we may not agree, I think we both know that this is going to have to be waited out before it is even taken into consideration.

 

[Terotrous]

Ok, from my understanding, the object of the game is to increase the characters percentage to make it easier to knock them off stage. The implication im getting from you is that because you is that because it is hard to kill fox and falco at low percentages, then therefore, it is not easy to kill them at all.

But you can kill every character when you get them to high percentage. That's not a weakness specific to Fox and Falco.

The fact that the spacies have this massive hole in their game (i.e being able to die at 0% in the first place) pretty much balances out their good onstage game.

Anyone technically "can" die at ~40% (you can't die at 0% without an SD, it takes at least one hit to knock you offstage and a second to gimp). The question is how likely this is to happen. Fox and Falco are among the most likely to die at low percentages (Ness is worse), but even then it's still not all that common in high level play.

Also, I was a bit confused about how you equated fox/falco losing a stock to the advantages they have at killing at about 10-20% less than the cast.

If they kill 20% earlier per stock, they're saving about 80% damage over the course of the match. Assuming both characters damage each other at the same rate (they don't, Spacies are among the highest damage dealers, and this is also a problem, but that's beside the point for now), and the other character typically kills at 120%, this allows them to lose a stock at 40% and not be at a deficit. 100 x 4 = 400, 120 x 3 + 40 = 400.


Of course, characters can survive to 140% on occasion, but Fox and Falco can do this too. It's not something that happens consistently and it's more about the player's inability to land a kill move than the opponent's ability to survive.

 

[DontHate-]

But you can kill every character when you get them to high percentage. That's not a weakness specific to Fox and Falco.

I think this was simply a miss understanding on my part of what you where saying. Yes, you can kill every character at high enough percentages but you CAN NOT kill every character in percentages as low as fox/falco/Ness. Try killing a MK or a snake at 20% in a regular match and you'll realize that it's pretty hard. The fact that the option is even available to kill fox and falco at these percentages balances them out somewhat. Since they can die so quickly, one mistake can lead to an instant death. Other characters who have pretty good on stage game can make dozens of mistakes and not suffer the loss of a stock as easily because they have better recovery. You mentioned that since fox/falco know this, then they cover that option by lasering. My argument against that was that pretty much any character (I used MK) can cover the obvious ways of dying if they know them.

Anyone technically "can" die at ~40% (you can't die at 0% without an SD, it takes at least one hit to knock you offstage and a second to gimp). The question is how likely this is to happen. Fox and Falco are among the most likely to die at low percentages (Ness is worse), but even then it's still not all that common in high level play.

You are right about not dying at 0% lol. That was kind of an exaggeration on my part but I guess you know what I mean. One thing I think we are forgetting is that because fox and falco are easy to kill at low percentages (even though it might not happen that often...although I personally believe it does but I guess it depends on our definition of "often"), then by definition, they become even easier to kill as percentages go up RELATIVE TO the rest of the cast. That is, a side smash on a 50% falco might kill him because of the weak recovery vs a side smash or up smash on snake at 50%. Now imagine at 70% falco and a 70% snake. A well placed back air and falco is dead while a back air on snake in the same place on that stage won't kill him.

If they kill 20% earlier per stock, they're saving about 80% damage over the course of the match. Assuming both characters damage each other at the same rate (they don't, Spacies are among the highest damage dealers, and this is also a problem, but that's beside the point for now), and the other character typically kills at 120%, this allows them to lose a stock at 40% and not be at a deficit. 100 x 4 = 400, 120 x 3 + 40 = 400.

You are going to have to explain this a bit further for me. I think I understand what you are saying, but do not want to assuming anything. When you get the chance, give me a clear example of a fox/falco vs. a character where your scenario applies. I want to mention that the easy of killing falco/fox at 40% applies to all stocks and not just 1. Also, although I would love to apply math and statistics into the game such as you did, the game is simply not that linear. characters do not survive to 140 "on occasion"...they survive into 140's and 160 constantly and sometimes there's a trend of characters dying at 110 and 120.. We also need to take into consideration the falco mains that play this game and are not God like. Anything less than a very good falco/ fox main will lead to mistakes consistently and get punished/ die consistently within a single match. Then again, I'm assuming I know what you meant by those numbers so please feel free to explain.

 

[Burning Boom]

Anyone technically "can" die at ~40% (you can't die at 0% without an SD, it takes at least one hit to knock you offstage and a second to gimp). The question is how likely this is to happen. Fox and Falco are among the most likely to die at low percentages (Ness is worse), but even then it's still not all that common in high level play.

I'm pretty sure Ivy's windbox technically "could" kill you at 0%. It really should never happen, but it can.

 

[XXXX1000]

As much time as I like to spend complaining about Fox Usmash and Falco Dair, I do think that other characters will be able to compete, or maybe they do already, since the general consensus is that Lucas and Ivysaur are also super strong. At the very least, Fox and Falco are not as dominant as they used to be, and a lot of the cast will have a lot of development in the future. I think any character could work their way up with a lot of time and optimization.

Except Ganondorf lol

 

[Vashimus]

The argument that glass cannon characters have their offensive capabilities being "balanced out" by their relative frailty and therefore should be less eligible for nerfs hasn't held much weight in any fighter in the history of ever. They're (almost always) still extremely dangerous characters in spite of that. Capcom never balances Akuma by just lowering his health every update and calling it a day.

 

[CORY]

I
I'm not sure that I'm ready for a tournament. There are several disadvantageous matchups for my Zelda.
Additionally, less than half the roster is well represented in our group, and there's some overlap between character choices.
I wouldn't mind doing friendlies at a tournament, but I feel like I'd just be throwing my money away if entered a few.
I don't have a car, and to my knowledge, my group doesn't travel much.

You should go to tournaments regardless. If you don't enter the bracket, you can at least hopefully play other people that came, whom you might not have gotten the chance to otherwise.

this is a good answer. i'd like to follow up with: if you go to a tourney, you start playing with something on the line. even if you know you're going to lose in the end, you'll at some point find matches that you can conceivably win, but also have the chance to lose (aka, you and your opponent are on similar levels). when that happens, you'll start to feel your tourney nerves, as it were, and you want to get used to that asap, since that's where a lot of loss johns happen.

it's also easier to find more varied matchups, as dmg said. you might be secretly super used to your friends and not realize it, or vice versa.

 

[Terotrous]

I think this was simply a miss understanding on my part of what you where saying. Yes, you can kill every character at high enough percentages but you CAN NOT kill every character in percentages as low as fox/falco/Ness. Since they can die so quickly, one mistake can lead to an instant death. Other characters who have pretty good on stage game can make dozens of mistakes

You can't make dozens of mistakes against Fox / Falco, because they've got very powerful combos that they can convert into kill moves, and they usually start from very fast moves, like shine, nair, or throw. This is also true of a few other characters, like Marth and Falcon, but they have a few holes in their game to make up for it.

by definition, they become even easier to kill as percentages go up RELATIVE TO the rest of the cast. That is, a side smash on a 50% falco might kill him because of the weak recovery vs a side smash or up smash on snake at 50%. Now imagine at 70% falco and a 70% snake. A well placed back air and falco is dead while a back air on snake in the same place on that stage won't kill him.

It's important to note that their recovery is only bad when they're forced to recover low. They're actually pretty competent at recovering high as they have two fairly distinct recovery options. As such, most side-smashes aren't really a huge threat to them due to their launch trajectories. DSmashes and throws are your main gimp tools against spacies.

I want to mention that the easy of killing falco/fox at 40% applies to all stocks and not just 1

Of course it does, but you won't get it on every stock. The hits that lead into the gimp opportunity are situational, and if you base your entire gameplan around aiming for a gimp, you'll telegraph your offense and the opponent will be able to defend against your attacks easily.

If you watch tournament videos I think a gimp rate of once per match (which was implied in the math above) is more than fair. It generally doesn't even happen quite that often.

We also need to take into consideration the falco mains that play this game and are not God like. Anything less than a very good falco/ fox main will lead to mistakes consistently and get punished/ die consistently within a single match.

No we don't. Tier lists are always based on the highest level of play currently known to be possible. You also never want to use "ease of use" as a balancing mechanic, because once people become highly skilled at the game it no longer matters. A character who is super strong but difficult to use well will have no weaknesses once people become adept at the game.

 

[Downdraft]

You should go to tournaments regardless. If you don't enter the bracket, you can at least hopefully play other people that came, whom you might not have gotten the chance to otherwise.

There will be a tournament on campus in a few weekends; I'll go.

I'll second what DMG said. Going to a tournament is what will get you to the next level the fastest. Feeling the heat of a competitive environment will help you improve faster than friendlies will.

There's a tournament in Auburn during Spring Break, but none of the Smashers in my area live near my home, so I'll miss it.
I'll get better when I get a car and can travel around more, preferably with a few friends.

@ Terotrous : Objectively, what makes you believe that Samus belongs in C-tier?
I'm interested in reading such because the best Smasher in our group mains Samus, Sonic, and Link, and his Samus is tough to beat.
Perhaps that's a part of him being the best player and understanding the game better.

Fox is god. Falco has a better argument for being much worse off than Melee.

In general, how do you approach Falco when he's using his lasers? I main Zelda, and it's hard to avoid them.
IMO, jumping through the air isn't the best option since Falco can jump too.
Farore's wind and the Farore's Wind wavedash aren't a good idea, and neither is Nayru's Love since the lasers come out so quickly.

I agree that if one was to drop to A tier, it'd be Falco, but even then Falco is still very scary in his own right. Dair is still totally ridonkulous, and lasers are still great.

I could MAYBE see Falco as low as 6th overall, after the aforementioned Fox, Ivy, Mewtwo, Lucas, and Metaknight. No lower though.

It's worth noting that my proposed Falco adjustment (Dair requires sweetspot hit for spike) does not really nerf his overall potential, it just forces you to be more precise with him. This is less severe than the change I want for Fox (UpSmash has less kill power), which is a straight nerf.

I can agree that Falco isn't a "beast" in this game, but he's still a formidable opponent?
On another note, why are y'all listing Meta Knight so high?
Perhaps I'm overreacting to/dramaticizing his changes from Brawl, but he just doesn't seem like a great character anymore.
I really don't understand him or know how to play him, so I'd like to hear from someone who's more knowledgeable about this topic.

The argument that glass cannon characters have their offensive capabilities being "balanced out" by their relative frailty and therefore should be less eligible for nerfs hasn't held much weight in the history of any fighter ever. They're (almost always) still extremely dangerous characters in spite of that. Capcom never balances Akuma by just lowering his health every update and calling it a day.

Is Zelda an exception? She has plenty of kill moves and a decent combo game, but frailty composes her floatiness, slowness, light weight, and difficulty of approaching several characters. Plus other characters' attacks stretch farther than hers, and I've noticed that few of her moves overtake the opponents'. For instance, when I'm offstage, I'm susceptible to Charizard and Sonic's aerials, which appear to overpower Zelda's. That's just two characters, but I imagine that the same holds true for several others.

edited for new quote

this is a good answer. i'd like to follow up with: if you go to a tourney, you start playing with something on the line. even if you know you're going to lose in the end, you'll at some point find matches that you can conceivably win, but also have the chance to lose (aka, you and your opponent are on similar levels). when that happens, you'll start to feel your tourney nerves, as it were, and you want to get used to that asap, since that's where a lot of loss johns happen.

it's also easier to find more varied matchups, as dmg said. you might be secretly super used to your friends and not realize it, or vice versa.

Yeah, I agree that only playing with about 20 people limits my growth. It'd be nice to play with some new faces and against characters that are underrepresented or not represented at all in my group. I can hang with most of the members of my group, but there are a few that have my number because they're the best, and I'm not knowledgeable enough about the matchups. I have yet to find an answer for one dude's Squirtle, another dude's Ivysaur, and the best guy's Link and Samus. I'm stuck in this situation where I feel that I've kinda peaked in our group and don't know where to proceed.

 

[Terotrous]

Objectively, what makes you believe that Samus belongs in C-tier?
I'm interested in reading such because the best Smasher in our group mains Samus, Sonic, and Link, and his Samus is tough to beat.
Perhaps that's a part of him being the best player and understanding the game better.

It's really a variety of subtle indirect nerfs. For one thing, compared to Melee, projectiles are way better in PM. You might think this would be good for Samus, but it's actually somewhat bad, as a lot of characters can challenge her at range now. There's also a bunch of new short characters, and Samus has always hated fighting short characters since they can go under a lot of her attacks. In particular, I think Squirtle vs Samus is absolutely terrible for Samus, if she attempts to fire any projectile other than full Charge Shot, he can just side B right under it for a combo.

Some of it is also just lower tier characters from Melee getting better. Link, for example, used to be lower than Samus, but he has improved drastically, so he is now above her. By comparison, Samus's main buff was the Ice Beam, but it's not really as useful as it could be. I think if Ice Beam got some buffs she would go up to B.

In general, how do you approach Falco when he's using his lasers? I main Zelda, and it's hard to avoid them.
IMO, jumping through the air isn't the best option since Falco can jump too.
Farore's wind and the Farore's Wind wavedash aren't a good idea, and neither is Nayru's Love since the lasers come out so quickly.

It's usually not possible to totally avoid laser damage, you just want to keep it low. I would still consider using Naryu's love occasionally just so the opponent knows you will pull it out and they'll have to be a bit more cautious firing lasers. You can also challenge his camp with Din's Fire if you can ever get a moment's piece, if he has bombs to worry about he can't fire lasers with impunity anymore.

I can agree that Falco isn't a "beast" in this game, but he's still a formidable opponent?

Sure, even if he is A tier, the A tier characters are still very formidable.

On another note, why are y'all listing Meta Knight so high?

Fast, strong, good disjoints, great pressure, great recovery.

I think the better question is "what's not to like about Metaknight?"

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

> Meta Knight ain't busted anymore
> Brawl players think he sucks now

Different playstyle is all. And it isn't even that different. Uair chains to Shuttle Loop, Dthrow and his edge game are still stupid.

Short fast sword multijumps with a few recovery options and dat Nair, anyone who argues that MK isn't good anymore hasn't played this game enough.

 

[Downdraft]

> Meta Knight ain't busted anymore
> Brawl players think he sucks now

Different playstyle is all. And it isn't even that different. Uair chains to Shuttle Loop, Dthrow and his edge game are still stupid.

Short fast sword multijumps with a few recovery options and dat Nair, anyone who argues that MK isn't good anymore hasn't played this game enough.

He's not terrible, but all his specials seem nerfed, and his aerial attacks are slightly less effective.
I just don't know how to play him. I'm not that knowledgeable about this game and its characters.
I just play friendly matches of a competitive nature against fellow Smashers.

 

[Empyrean]

Dat nerfed Mach Tornado tho.

I think that might be a reason why Brawl players think he sucks in this game. Neutral B used to be a central part of his game. Dair too. Either way, the character is better this way.

 

[Terotrous]

He's not terrible, but all his specials seem nerfed, and his aerial attacks are slightly less effective.
I just don't know how to play him. I'm not that knowledgeable about this game and its characters.
I just play friendly matches of a competitive nature against fellow Smashers.

He is definitely nerfed, but most of the things that made him strong are still intact.

Basically, what happened to Metaknight is what should have happened to Fox and Falco. Remove the most obviously broken things, but keep the core of the character intact. Most people agree Metaknight is fine now and still really strong. Unfortunately the spacies are considered off the table for balance considerations because apparently there'd be mass ragequitting if we reduced their kill power to any degree.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

MK is around Wolfs level imho, definitely top 10, if not top 5... He just is not brawl-style overpowered. People saying that he only got nerfs forget that the PM environment is a huge buff and makes many moves better (for example the d-throw).

 

[Hashtag]

Diddy's MU chart is inflated for a lot of people, based on the notion that peanuts + bananas have less counterplay than what is actually offered.

I also think that the counter play for diddy's items can be countered. Diddys match ups will be hard to determine. Move set wise, I think he's solid.

It will mostly come down to how the opponent handles items. Even so, there is a counter item game to the opponents counter item game.

Though, currently it is inflated. Still a really solid character in my opinion.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

Okay, so I figure that I should finally try an actual tierlist that includes everyone. Not ordered within tiers.

S Tier:




A Tier:




B Tier:




C Tier:




D Tier:




Of all characters, Falcon and Toon Link were hardest to place, I feel they're both very borderline between B and C. Ivy, Mewtwo, and Lucas all might prove to be S, I feel that these three plus Fox and Falco are top 5.

Basically, S tier represents characters who are a little too good. A tier are all the really good characters. B tier is also good, but they either are slightly outclassed by someone in A tier or their matchups just aren't quite as good. C tier is okay but has significant matchup trouble. D tier is just bad and loses to most of the cast.

A and B tier represent optimal balance. Characters in C tier need a little bit of help. Characters in D tier need a lot of help. Characters in S tier need to be toned down a tad.

I like the way you described what the tier lists mean. I usually think of it as S is a little too good as you said. A and B are the really good characters that would only require minor tweaks not affecting their gameplay. A just being more developed/played characters or also just better than B in someway. C representing characters that struggle and could use some assistance in development/buffs or can't compete in a tournament on there own. And then whatever the lowest tier is being characters that should be improved.

 

[Soft Serve]

I really don't think its fair to compare characters to their brawl counterparts. Its a different game, and while the playstyle can carry over, most wont, so saying that the character is nerfed because what worked in previous games don't work now is frustrating and irreverent. Take GnW for example. He is built more around his melee self than his brawl self, so saying he is nerfed from brawl is like saying fox got nerfed in the transition from 64 to melee because shine doesn't land cancel anymore and he no longer has the best projectile in the game. It just doesn't transfer because they are different entities.

In the same vein, saying metaknight got nerfed just doesn't work because he is completely different. He doesn't have the amazing dair from brawl, this is true, but he does have an easy way to get out of juggles (and has good hitboxes and crazy presence when still above you, something really rare in a smash game) and the arguably most flexible recovery in the game. I can see why you think his specials are worse than brawl, Up-b doesn't go as high and Tornado isn't as good. However Down-b is rediculously flexible (and i think it and tornado are the highest vertical you can go after your jumps) and Side-b doesn't have the stupid pop-up so using it to recover is still strong and it actually works on stage. He also has one of the best tech chasing games when you combine his throws (forward down and back) with his amazing run speed.


I don't necessarily disagree with the list being discussed but some of the discussion makes me want to tear my hair out haha. Although I don't think GnW ganon or jiggs need help. Jiggs could use some of her power from rest being transfered to the rest of her kit but she still has strong punishes (Rest OoS catches like, most of the cast attacking her now) and can go deep off stage for edge guards which is needed in PM. Ganon kills you in like 5 hits, it doesn't matter if he doesn't actually have a way in because unless we are assuming top 5 level of play or completely perfect, you will make enough mistakes for ganon to capitalize and take 3-4 stocks. High level melee is the perfect example, spacies do make enough mistakes/get out played enough by marths and sheiks for marth/sheik players to win matches.

Spoiler

I feel like I write too many essays in these thread (maybe I'm filling in for bamsey as he lurks instead) but it really bothers me when the discussion is so cyclical. Almost nothing new is ever said, and when it is said it gets ignored for the most part and the same misconceptions keep getting spread. I don't claim to be good at this game (I'm pretty terrible, just ask anyone on az) but I feel like I understand it enough to say that this thread is rarely constructive and 45% of it is the same things just said over and over.

 

[MagnesD3]

He is definitely nerfed, but most of the things that made him strong are still intact.

Basically, what happened to Metaknight is what should have happened to Fox and Falco. Remove the most obviously broken things, but keep the core of the character intact. Most people agree Metaknight is fine now and still really strong. Unfortunately the spacies are considered off the table for balance considerations because apparently there'd be mass ragequitting if we reduced their kill power to any degree.

This I hate the fact Fox and Falco seem to be held on the pedestal of untouchableness, If they were metaknight and wolf level then I would have no problem with them but right now its clear they need a couple tweaks.

 

[Terotrous]

I really don't think its fair to compare characters to their brawl counterparts. Its a different game, and while the playstyle can carry over, most wont, so saying that the character is nerfed because what worked in previous games don't work now is frustrating and irreverent. Take GnW for example. He is built more around his melee self than his brawl self, so saying he is nerfed from brawl is like saying fox got nerfed in the transition from 64 to melee because shine doesn't land cancel anymore and he no longer has the best projectile in the game.

While there are some system changes that can have subtle effects on a character's viability, it's really not hard to tell when a character's toolset has been buffed or nerfed. No one ever had trouble pointing out that G&W was heavily buffed in Brawl and Jigglypuff and Fox were heavily nerfed. I would also like to point you out to the PM character pages, which repeatedly mention that certain things have been improved when talking about Brawl characters (or weakened for Metaknight).


But if you really insist, I can explain (again) why I think the loss of some of the Brawl changes hurts G&W. In terms of startup, endlag, and movement, G&W is one of the slowest characters in the game, and has very few solid answers to pressure from fast characters. Neutral Jump Dair was a very useful defensive move that punished people who came in too recklessly against G&W in Brawl, forcing you to respect his space more and making his other moves (which typically have solid range but not speed) more dangerous in the process. This no longer works as even with fast fall it is too slow and they can usually get out of the way if they don't just hit you instead. Brawl Nair started up very fast and applied solid pressure, something he totally lacks now since his new nair is also pretty slow. Parachute on Up-B is an obvious buff, it lets him recover farther, there's really nothing to say with that one.

Although I don't think GnW ganon or jiggs need help. Jiggs could use some of her power from rest being transfered to the rest of her kit but she still has strong punishes (Rest OoS catches like, most of the cast attacking her now) and can go deep off stage for edge guards which is needed in PM.

The ability to go offstage for gimps is no longer impressive as like half the cast can do this now, and some (like Kirby and Metaknight) clearly do it better. A lot of the new characters are also more resilient against this type of edgeguarding, projectiles are often useful for gimps and Jiggs has none. Rest OOS really isn't a great option, its hitbox is awful, only hitting people who are sticking hurtboxes REALLY deep into your body, and it's totally worthless against disjoints, which are the main things that terrorize Jiggs. Oh, and of course, if you miss, you're dead.

Ganon kills you in like 5 hits, it doesn't matter if he doesn't actually have a way in because unless we are assuming top 5 level of play or completely perfect, you will make enough mistakes for ganon to capitalize and take 3-4 stocks. High level melee is the perfect example, spacies do make enough mistakes/get out played enough by marths and sheiks for marth/sheik players to win matches.

Almost everyone kills you in 5 hits or less in this game, including Falcon, who can get in much easier than Ganon. Also, the spacies are not your problem as a character who can't approach, they're actually among the easiest characters to get in against (the problem is when you do get in, they're probably still better than you). The issue is all the new Brawl characters like Ivy, Mewtwo, Link, Zelda, Snake, Olimar, etc, who can just keep you out for days if your approach is lacking.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Yo, just want to say you cannot compare Meta Knight and Jiggs with a straight face. Meta Knight being a fastfaller matters, and hurts, plus his aerials are not conducive to carrying people off a considerable distance. MK has a steller edge-guarding game and this sphere or bubble of influence around the ledge that he can cover and swat people away from with near impunity, and he's safer offstage than most, but he cannot do what Jiggs or Pit do. If you go too low with MK, that is serious cause for concern because you have some diverse tools for getting back up to the stage, but a well-spaced move can cover all your options and swat you away easily if you slip up and your target returns to the stage while you're caught out below stage height.

Squeak's B-Reversed Shuttle Loop where the Loop is interrupted by landing on the stage, though - really creative, and really quick way to get back onto solid ground if someone comes out to gimp you. I don't know if he discovered it but it's a really nice tech.

 

[SpiderMad]

Squeak's B-Reversed Shuttle Loop where the Loop is interrupted by landing on the stage, though - really creative, and really quick way to get back onto solid ground if someone comes out to gimp you. I don't know if he discovered it but it's a really nice tech.

Well there's Brawl right?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Well there's Brawl right?

*facepalm* Right.

You can tell I watch a lot of Brawl videos.

 

[MagnesD3]

I used to main Mr GandW in brawl, RIP G&W

 

[Terotrous]

Yo, just want to say you cannot compare Meta Knight and Jiggs with a straight face. Meta Knight being a fastfaller matters, and hurts, plus his aerials are not conducive to carrying people off a considerable distance. MK has a steller edge-guarding game and this sphere or bubble of influence around the ledge that he can cover and swat people away from with near impunity, and he's safer offstage than most, but he cannot do what Jiggs or Pit do.

Fair can totally do wall of pain too, even if Jiggs is a little better at it, I'd rather have his massively disjointed aerials overall. They make beating recovery moves way easier.

 

[Nguz95]

I used to main Mr GandW in brawl, RIP G&W

Son, G&W is the man:

 

[Terotrous]

Son, G&W is the man

He's playing very well, but I can see lots of places where the Brawl buffs would have helped. Basically every time he did Dair, it would have been much better with the fast fall. Also, the Parachute only got one significant hit. Like I said previously, in almost every situation where you could finish a combo with Parachute, Fair will also work. Tropical Fish isn't really necessary against Wario, but the loss of Parachute wouldn't hurt too much in this matchup.

Speaking of which, I wouldn't call Wario one of G&W's worst matchups. Let's see him do this to MK, Lucas or a Space animal.

 

[MagnesD3]

Son, G&W is the man:

btw I still enjoy G&W its just (as with my other main King D3) they are nowhere near as good as they were and I would kill for them to get some love from the Back Room. I miss fishbowl, fastfall keyblade, better recovery and that godlike turtle, D3 just needs some waddle dee buffs so I can feel like I can control some damn space. (also a guaranteed downsmash from a downthrow with D3 would be nice since he cant Chain grab.)

 

[Nguz95]

He's playing very well, but I can see lots of places where the Brawl buffs would have helped. Basically every time he did Dair, it would have been much better with the fast fall. Also, the Parachute only got one significant hit. Like I said previously, in almost every situation where you could finish a combo with Parachute, Fair will also work. Tropical Fish isn't really necessary against Wario, but the loss of Parachute wouldn't hurt too much in this matchup.

Speaking of which, I wouldn't call Wario one of G&W's worst matchups. Let's see him do this to MK, Lucas or a Space animal.

First off, Vudujin one of Melee's best Luigis. You can't be underestimating Dakpo's opponent. Second, Dakpo is a top player from Texas's toughest region. Finally, I've already talked about why the faster dair would be either overcentralizing or worse than what he has now, so I won't repeat myself.

 

[jtm94]

fishbowl was just ridiculous. I kind of miss GnW melee parachute because that thing was instantaneous, though not as strong I suppose.

I just like the turtle as of late, that and uair are pretty much GnW only combos and finish with fair. There is also dair landing hitbox into stuff. I quite enjoy the way GnW plays even if he isn't that good.

 

[MagnesD3]

fishbowl was just ridiculous. I kind of miss GnW melee parachute because that thing was instantaneous, though not as strong I suppose.

I just like the turtle as of late, that and uair are pretty much GnW only combos and finish with fair. There is also dair landing hitbox into stuff. I quite enjoy the way GnW plays even if he isn't that good.

I just hope someone in the Pmbr knows he isnt that great and tries to fix him, but I agree he is still fun (Brawl Gand W, and Brawl D3 at least give me a reason to play brawl sometimes lol).