Tier List Speculation

[Fenrir VII]

Link is better in the neutral than Samus, but she can't be comboed nearly as easily, and while Link has a good recovery, it's nowhere near hers...

So essentially I'm saying Samus = Link - some offense + some defense...

Until a Link starts stomping the tournament scene, I really don't get where the OP comments are coming from. He's a hard matchup for certain characters, but he has his counters too, so essentially, he's another Smash character.

 

[Terotrous]

Close to the ground zair stuff is pretty legit. The range zair covers is ridiculous.

Yeah, I use Zair a lot against anyone who's not too short to get hit by it.

The main reason I'm a bit uncomfortable rating Samus right now is because of Ice Beam. So far, Fire Beam seems better for pretty much everything. Has anyone found any situations where Ice Beam is clearly the better choice?

 

[Denti]

ivysaur is broooooooookeeeeeeeeeeeeennnnnnnn

 

[Vashimus]

Rarely ever use Ice. Ice f-smash and d-tilt are practically useless, and the old fire moves are buffed and a lot more usable now.

Samus's main advantages over Link are largely in the defense department. Better camping ability, high survivability, invincible Up-B OoS, etc. But even then, bomb glide-tossing makes Link live pretty damn long, and having better comboability, not having to rely on his grab as much to start offense with, and having a damn sword just wins out.

 

[Terotrous]

ivysaur is broooooooookeeeeeeeeeeeeennnnnnnn

Actually my friend is riding the Ivy is broke train now, after my Ivy blew up all of his characters by at least a full stock. He says he just can't figure out how to fight that matchup, since "Ivy seems to have superior options at all ranges and her survivability is godlike". I definitely agree that Ivy is really good, but I think some of it is that he's not capitalizing hard enough when he does hit me, against zoners it's always key to make your hits count.

That being said, as a strong Ivysaur player, I'm curious to hear what you think are her worst matchups / biggest flaws.


Off-topic, but I would like to give praise for the punish you did on Hungrybox's Puff at Shuffle V. Sweetspotting the balloon to build extra solarbeam charge? Who would even think of doing that?

 

[Seagull Joe]

ivysaur is broooooooookeeeeeeeeeeeeennnnnnnn

>Till she fights a character with a better projectile.

 

[Denti]

saur has no bad matchus she whips all her problems bc she is bdsm master race

 

[Nguz95]

People don't seem to know this yet, but Diddy is ready to take the world by storm. Just wait, he's crazy.

 

[Paradoxium]

Yeah, I use Zair a lot against anyone who's not too short to get hit by it.

The main reason I'm a bit uncomfortable rating Samus right now is because of Ice Beam. So far, Fire Beam seems better for pretty much everything. Has anyone found any situations where Ice Beam is clearly the better choice?

Ice beam has dat up smash, and my friend telling that it makes missiles better but I'm not to sure

 

[Terotrous]

>Till she fights a character with a better projectile.

Razor Leaf eats a lot of other projectiles, so even if they have fast projectiles you can try to back them up towards the edge with it. Ivy is also in no way limited to zoning, she's got a pretty solid approach too with stuff like Fair and Nair.

saur has no bad matchus she whips all her problems bc she is bdsm master race

It's a huge missed opportunity that the Ivy matchup thread isn't called "When a problem comes along, you must whip it"

Ice beam has dat up smash

This does seem to be the best part of Ice Beam, but even then Fire Beam UpSmash is still decent, now that it links properly.

 

[Empyrean]

I think ice f-smash might have a lingering hitbox and lasts longer than plasma, but plasma has more knockback. As for ice d-tilt, I have no idea what its use is.

 

[Ripple]

plasma?

its fire

 

[Terotrous]

I think ice f-smash might have a lingering hitbox and lasts longer than plasma, but plasma has more knockback. As for ice d-tilt, I have no idea what its use is.

There's also Ice fair, but it doesn't seem great either. It seems like it should be a meteor smash / spike, but it's not.

 

[SixSaw]

while Link has a good recovery, it's nowhere near hers...

Link's recovery is better than Samus' tbh. He's got more mix-up options and is generally safer during it.

 

[didds]

Link's recovery is better than Samus' tbh. He's got more mix-up options and is generally safer during it.

I don't know if I agree with that.

Samus has tether, bomb stall, and up b which can have varied timing to throw off edgeguards.

Link has tether, agt, and up b which can have varied timing to throw off edgeguards.

They seem pretty equal to me as far as recovery goes. Samus' tether might be longer too, but I'm not positive. In the end, I'd take Samus' recovery over Link's just because of the floatiness she has.

buuut.. when it comes down to it, it's probably more dependent on player intelligence rather than the character; both have plenty of mixup and overage coptions.

 

[Denti]

Oracle got on my laptop and posted on my account! lolol

 

[Jolteon]

AGT is a much better tool than Samus' bomb jumping for recovery. Doesn't give you as much distance (which is honestly pretty extraneous at that point), but the vastly increased options to mix-up with, not to mention the ability to cover yourself with Link's bombs while recovering are highly significant advantages.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I was already wondering why you were complaining about Ivy being broken

 

[didds]

I'm not familiar with Link, is there time to pull a bomb if you've been hit without a midair jump?

 

[Empyrean]

plasma?

its fire

Plasma is stronger, and more fancy. Get on my level.

Also, there has never been a "fire beam".

 

[Ali Baba 177]

I used to think Link's boomerangs were op, but then I took an arrow to the knee oh god I'm so sorry

I don't even care about tiers anymore tbh. I'm certain Diddy doesn't have mad matchups outside of maybe a select few (sheik, lucas, maybe falco or kirby/olimar) so If I'm losing I know its just because I'm not playing optimally. If we were ever to make a matchup spread I swear Diddy's would be almost comparable to spacies, If its a matchup he doesn't straight win I'm sure its nothing much worse than 50-50. Even the rougher matchups are more like 45-55, 40-60 at absolute worst (sheik on smashville or FD).

Is there a matchup-chart being compiled by a few people? I saw a link to a servery somewhere but I was on my phone, and I know there is one person going around in all the character threads asking for a general consensus on matchups systematically, asking for 1-2 matchups at a time.

I think you may be talking about my posts,, I started to try to get character MU charts, planning on 2 at a time. However as I started to ask in character threads I got thrashed as I was told MU charts are usless as the game is young, things change, the game could be updated, and there would still be inexperienced people influencing the chart even though its on the character thread. So i stopped trying. I think tier speculation is more debatable and less useful, however it is easier to make and still somewhat useful and fun to talk about.

 

[B.W.]

I'm not familiar with Link, is there time to pull a bomb if you've been hit without a midair jump?

DI correctly and yes.

 

[didds]

Perhaps I spoke too soon, but I still see them having pretty even recoveries, maybe Samus suffers more with the loss of her tether though.

 

[Downdraft]

ivysaur is broooooooookeeeeeeeeeeeeennnnnnnn

One of the Smashers that's a part of the Huntsville group mains Ivysaur, and I don't have an answer for him.
I probably should seriously look into maining a couple of other characters.
I've played with Sheik and Meta Knight a little, but they don't get near as much time as my Zelda.

 

[Nguz95]

Sheik is a heartless monster who beats almost all of the Brawl characters. She's probably a pretty good bet. MK too. You can't really go wrong with either one, but needles mess up tethers pretty bad.

 

[Downdraft]

Sheik is a heartless monster who beats almost all of the Brawl characters. She's probably a pretty good bet. MK too. You can't really go wrong with either one, but needles mess up tethers pretty bad.

Thanks. I'm not sure how to use Meta Knight since he's drastically different and significantly worse than his Brawl incarnation.
I really wish I could post some videos of me playing, but I haven't found a simple way to record good or high quality video without costs getting too expensive.

 

[Nguz95]

I know what you mean. The best way imo is to go to a tourney where you know they will be streaming. Beyond that there's not much else you can do besides try and pool the cost of a recording device so you can start streaming from your regular tournament group.

 

[Paradoxium]

Noob questions over here

1-what's the best way to di fire?

2-best way to di Marth's F throw?

 

[Soft Serve]

Noob questions over here

1-what's the best way to di fire?

2-best way to di Marth's F throw?

1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzGFooXC-1U

2: Down and away or up and away, depending on percent and positioning, and your characters weight. Generally down and away allows for the least amount of follow ups. So they won't get a re-grab on most characters and no f-smash, while they can wavedash dtilt or run>dtilt you if you go off stage. AWAY is the important part, but don't get caught in the DI trap. If they dthrow and you DI away then bam you land right next to them. If he reads the DI and b-throws then its an F-smash.

A lot of characters (a lot of the brawl characters, the PK kids sometimes, and the heavy characters) can't escape Marth's follow-ups at mid percent even with good DI though.

Edit: listen to DMG tho, his advice is better

 

[DMG]

DI fire? PK Fire? SDI away from it, or SDI up to jump out.

How to DI Marth's Fthrow entirely depends on your character, %, and stage positioning factors (is he right at the edge? Is there a platform above me?). The short answer is that DI into Marth sends you higher, but not as far from Marth. This usually gives Marth a free hit, but the lethality of that hit can vary quite a bit. Neutral DI is probably your worst option overall. DI away from Marth sends you away + lower trajectory. However, on certain floaty or light characters (including a few around Marth's own weight), this still sets them up for tipper Fsmash/dashing pivot Fsmash a lot of the time.

The vast majority of the time though, DI away is the best option against this throw because it tends to force Marth to use the most movement and to consider how fast you will hit the ground/if he can reach you in time before this happens. If he still has a punish from say a dash pivot Fsmash or Dtilt, you at least force him to react and do those actions well, compared to no DI or DI in where you usually give him very easy hits

 

[Downdraft]

I know what you mean. The best way imo is to go to a tourney where you know they will be streaming. Beyond that there's not much else you can do besides try and pool the cost of a recording device so you can start streaming from your regular tournament group.

I never even thought of that. Our group is a pretty decent size; I may suggest this once I can settle on a few devices to present to the main people.
I'm not sure that I'm ready for a tournament. There are several disadvantageous matchups for my Zelda.
Additionally, less than half the roster is well represented in our group, and there's some overlap between character choices.
I wouldn't mind doing friendlies at a tournament, but I feel like I'd just be throwing my money away if entered a few.
I don't have a car, and to my knowledge, my group doesn't travel much.

 

[DMG]

You should go to tournaments regardless. If you don't enter the bracket, you can at least hopefully play other people that came, whom you might not have gotten the chance to otherwise.

 

[Nguz95]

I'll second what DMG said. Going to a tournament is what will get you to the next level the fastest. Feeling the heat of a competitive environment will help you improve faster than friendlies will.

 

[guedes the brawler]

Plasma is stronger, and more fancy. Get on my level.

Also, there has never been a "fire beam".

she had a flamethrower, tho

 

[Player -0]

Why is Ivy's Up B sweetspot so big? It's like a bit bigger than shine size.

 

[jtm94]

Why is Ivy's Up B sweetspot so big? It's like a bit bigger than shine size.

I've been saying this for weeks. And it is active while moving. Please nerf. And Ivy can heal in All-Star mode. That is ridiculously busted.

 

[DMG]

Diddy's MU chart is inflated for a lot of people, based on the notion that peanuts + bananas have less counterplay than what is actually offered.

 

[Touching_Everything]

How is Luigi terrible(Or out of the Neutral Zone)

He has great recovery and on the ground hes really good at controlling the stage with good wave dashes and the air game is pretty decent. Only thing that I see no reliable gimps and no killing power at low presents.

 

[Paradoxium]

How is Luigi terrible(Or out of the Neutral Zone)

He has great recovery and on the ground hes really good at controlling the stage with good wave dashes and the air game is pretty decent. Only thing that I see no reliable gimps and no killing power at low presents.

He is very under explored and very underutilized, and based on current knowledge of the metagame he is deemed "Bad"

HOWEVER

you never know what a character as awkward as Luigi might be capable of, give him time to develop hes probable better than we think

 

[GP&B]

Every perception is based on the current view of the metagame, not what they could necessarily become (most cases usually). I do feel that Luigi has utterly nasty combos, but maybe not the best ways to make them happen.