Tier List Speculation

[didds]

I don't even know anymore.

And it depends on if the PMBR has managed to fix parrying.

Parrying shouldn't affect his placement that much now that he has an out of shield game. I want to say that he's at least mid tier, but I don't exactly have tons of credibility. I will say that he is capable of more than what we've seen through videos though, since Yoshi doesn't really have prevalent top level players working with him (not that's been seen at least). V3ctorman is great, but of course he won't pull out P:M yoshi's full potential simply because he's not familiar with all the new tools and hitboxes Yoshi has to work with now. From personal experience I'll say that I have yet to encounter a matchup that isn't at least manageable for Yoshi. Yoshi's punish game is ridiculous on a lot of the cast and if recovery is what people think keeps him down, myself and a good amount of the Yoshi boards would probably agree that Yoshi's recovery is actually pretty good (granted you understand how to play Yoshi and can preserve his dj).

edit: Yoshi's parry game used to be important just due to having no real out of shield options. Now that he has an awesome out of shield game the parrying just doesn't seem as necessary, it might even be overkill, but it's way to early to say for sure.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Maybe that stems from the fact that no one understands wtf Olimar is doing most of the time.

no it's not just that, it's that he's good. almost all of his hitboxes are incredibly disjointed and his ground tilts seem to have hella priority, plus he has incrediblee
damage racking up skills, really powerful flowered pikmin, and the worlds most annoying nair

 

[Plum]

Olimar's Naircopter got nothing on Nairplane

 

[jtm94]

Good move properties on a bad character don't mean that much. A couple people and myself just discussed this, Lasting hitboxes, high priority, or disjoints don't mean as much on worse character. Look at Ganondorf, and he gets placed very low on tier lists consistently.

 

[Soft Serve]

Olimar can litterally force people to use moves that he can then punish, or he gets free percent. He has good mobility, good disjoints, and is better at forcing aproches than shiek and other characters. He is bland and uninteresting, but definetly not a bad character.

 

[didds]

Olimar and all of his pikmin should have swords

 

[JOE!]

Out of sheer curiosity, how many characters lack both a projectile and/or significant disjoint?

 

[jtm94]

his aerials aren't that disjointed and his grounded moves are slow.

His usmash/uair are amazing however.

Out of sheer curiosity, how many characters lack both a projectile and/or significant disjoint?

Captain Falcon, DK, Bowser, Sonic to an extent, I think of GnW's bacon as less and less of a projectile everyday.

 

[didds]

Out of sheer curiosity, how many characters lack both a projectile and/or significant disjoint?

Depends, do you consider puff's bair a significant disjoint? or swords, hammers, and giant tails like I suspect?

All that come to mind are sonic, falcon, wario, and puff. All happen to be characters who can use their mobility to negate the limitation. Well, maybe not P:M puff? That's not my personal opinion, but puff's design and weaknesses seem to be a hot topic on the boards so ya.

 

[JOE!]

Captain Falcon, DK, Bowser, Sonic to an extent, I think of GnW's bacon as less and less of a projectile everyday.

Falcon, but not Ganon?

Also, Bowser has a Firebreath and DK has the groundpound... which kinda counts?

Depends, do you consider puff's bair a significant disjoint? or swords, hammers, and giant tails like I suspect?

All that come to mind are sonic, falcon, wario, and puff. All happen to be characters who can use their mobility to negate the limitation. Well, maybe not P:M puff? That's not my personal opinion, but puff's design and weaknesses seem to be a hot topic on the boards so ya.

Puff's Bair I wouldn't count since it is really only 1 move (and its also janky in general...)

Anywho, just thought about doing a sore of role call on disjoints / projectiles since people always seem to list "Sword and projectiles" as huge advantages / problems in matchups. If most of the cast seems to have either/or, wouldnt the issue be with those that don't?

 

[didds]

Falcon, but not Ganon?

Also, Bowser has a Firebreath and DK has the groundpound... which kinda counts?

Puff's Bair I wouldn't count since it is really only 1 move (and its also janky in general...)

Anywho, just thought about doing a sore of role call on disjoints / projectiles since people always seem to list "Sword and projectiles" as huge advantages / problems in matchups. If most of the cast seems to have either/or, wouldnt the issue be with those that don't?

My reasoning for ganon/falcon is simply ganon has a tool like fair which, although only one move, is prevalent and can be used as a zoning tool the same way a sword would be used. I'm not sure but I think DK's neutral B may also have a disjoint? Possibly the same with bowser and his fair? I don't want to claim that though because I'm really not too familiar with those characters. I might still consider Puff's bair a viable disjoint, I mean, there was a reason it was a stable in her melee zoning game (I know this isn't melee), and it's used pretty similar to say, Marth's fair. I just don't really see how only having one disjoint would make it not count. I could see how a situational move like squirtle's usmash would be dumb to consider for neutral play, but Puff's bair can be abused pretty safely, well, maybe not so much anymore due to everyone's increased zoning ability.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

So it has been almost a month and a half sense I last put out the community tier list survey and more tournaments have happened and opinions changed. Here is the community vote #2 below, if you have 5 minutes in your day then itd be awesome if you could fill this out with your opinion instead of a game of PM and then get back to it This way I can try to keep track of Smashboards Community opinion and try to combine with more tournament results or something to create a new tier speculation list.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/KTHY88S

Thanks for your time!

Olimar can litterally force people to use moves that he can then punish, or he gets free percent. He has good mobility, good disjoints, and is better at forcing aproches than shiek and other characters. He is bland and uninteresting, but definetly not a bad character.

Are you talking about his pikmin throaw? (side B) And why does everyone say he is uninteresting?! He is really fun to play as for me, maybe if he was more flashy,, the pikmin could be the size of bowser?,.

 

[B.W.]

Olimar actually has some pretty good disjoints. His Pikmin attacks are bigger than T.Link's swords. F-Smash travels far enough to outrange Marth's F-Smash and D-Smash is really strong for how far the Pikmin go out and even hit slightly under the ledge. His U-Smash and U-air also cover his head incredibly well.

 

[Paradoxium]

How come Kirby can act immediately after his dash attack ends? Who was the tyrant responsible for this!

And Yoshis side B, like none of my moves break it, if you shield he can pop out and **** you, he doesn't even have to commit with it. Wtf

 

[didds]

How come Kirby can act immediately after his dash attack ends? Who was the tyrant responsible for this!

And Yoshis side B, like none of my moves break it, if you shield he can pop out and **** you, he doesn't even have to commit with it. Wtf

Projectiles stop side B, and just about every other move in the game clanks with it. You can even grab Yoshi out of side B if your timing is on point. Just keep in mind that it has a small hit box so it can be stopped before he can even reach you. It's by no means game breaking or anything.

 

[bolt.]

Fire Fox / Falco is super easy to gimp, but don't forget that you do have to get them off and below the stage first, and smart spacie players deliberately avoid the edges of the stage at low percents to try to prevent you from just tossing them off. They also typically prefer wide stages like Final Destination, Smashville, and Pokemon Stadium 2 where they can stay towards the middle of the screen, reducing the risk of a gimp.

If you watch high level play, spacies usually get gimped approximately once per match. Even then, they're still strong. The gimp is the only thing that keeps them from being ludicrously OP.

I'm not saying spacies aren't strong, but to call them overpowered is ludicrous. Especially because they are so well developed compared to new/buffed project m characters. Give it more time and I'm sure people will not be talking about fox and falco being overpowered.

 

[jtm94]

Ganon has some significant disjoints. That's why I didn't list him.

 

[Ripple]

ganondorf has no "real" disjoints like other characters. nothing he has is removed or not attached to a bone with a hurtbox

 

[CORY]

what're his significant disjoints? fair has a smallish one (it looks like he has a bowling ball around his fist), and bair has some funky hitboxes, from what i recall. but nothing that seems significant, in terms of disjointed hiboxes.

he has some largish hitboxes that move about him quickly, but that's not disjointed. i also can't consult the ganon hitbox thread, since it's being reconstructed right now, so all the gifs are down : /

 

[Terotrous]

I don't even think peach is considered a good singles character anymore.

she's like solid mid

Her short hop float lets her get over a lot of projectiles that frustrate other characters. She's also got very powerful attacks that start up extremely fast, in particular her jab and nair are some of the fastest attacks in the game. Crouch cancel Dsmash is a monster at low damage and forces you to be cautious about how you attack her. Fthrow is a great kill throw, and she has great recovery too. What's not to like?

man i wish we could talk about tiers instead of star fox romances

Well that's the fault of all the slashers who didn't want Krystal in this game. Without Fox's canon girlfriend, we have no choice but to argue Fox / Falco vs Fox / Wolf for all eternity.
(It's totally Fox / Wolf btw).

I say leave spacies where they are at the top. They're fine, Melee made them that way, Sakurai created them to be good.

Considering he nerfed them in the PAL version and then again in Brawl I think it's quite clear that he did not intend them to be that good.

why olimar? It seems to me that he is relatively easy to do decently with, from personal experience

Yeah, I think I probably underrated him a tad earlier in the thread. The problem is I was trying to be too legit, with shffls and combos and all that crap. Olimar is not a legitimate character. Just run away and throw Pikmin, then do UpSmash. The fact that he has less of them now really doesn't affect the effectiveness of this strategy all that much.

 

[Oro?!]

Ganon's hurtbox stops on his ankle btw for this.

 

[JOE!]

Huh, do his feet just not have hurtboxes? Lol

 

[Terotrous]

Huh, do his feet just not have hurtboxes? Lol

He's got a protective boot!

 

[B.W.]

Pretty sure there are a few characters like that actually

 

[JOE!]

Meanwhile, other folks like Samus have hurtboxes on their shoulders that are nice and special... but Ganon's feet are OK to be intangible lol

 

[Hylian]

I'm pretty sure very few if any at all characters have hurtboxes on their feet.

 

[SixSaw]

Protective boots aren't enough to save him here, unfortunately

 

[jtm94]

Ganon's fair hits pretty far ahead of him. I can and will record it hitting me a distance that I would be comfortable calling disjointed, I've recorded plenty of footage of it hitting me while his fist isn't near me in the past. As well as Sonic's uair hitting me while no part of my char was directly above his shoes or below the peak of where it looks like it hits. I have also recorded Ivysaur hitting me with UpB strong spot(the regular hitbox) while being directly above Ivy.

Ganon's dair also hits through platforms.

 

[Strong Badam]

I'm pretty sure very few if any at all characters have hurtboxes on their feet.

Very few humanoid characters, anyway. The Kirby characters do as do other random ones like Squirtle.

 

[didds]

Squirtle's tail has no hurtbox right? Best disjoint in the game.

 

[JOE!]

@ jtm94 ,

Ivys vine whip does arc from her back and is active right above her flower for about a feame yeah

 

[CORY]

Ganon's fair hits pretty far ahead of him. I can and will record it hitting me a distance that I would be comfortable calling disjointed, I've recorded plenty of footage of it hitting me while his fist isn't near me in the past. As well as Sonic's uair hitting me while no part of my char was directly above his shoes or below the peak of where it looks like it hits. I have also recorded Ivysaur hitting me with UpB strong spot(the regular hitbox) while being directly above Ivy.

Ganon's dair also hits through platforms.

it's not "significantly disjointed" unless you're saying that "extending slightly beyond his fist" is significant. his dair going through platforms is not disjoint, it's his legs (complete with hurtboxes) jamming down through the platform. same thing with falcon's dair.

Ganon's hurtbox stops on his ankle btw for this.

that's almost significant, though : o dat footbox.

 

[SixSaw]

So ftilt impresses you, but not fair? You've seen fair right?

 

[CORY]

hahahaha, oh ****. i never remembered seeing the pm updated ones. i've only seen gifs of the older melee one where it's slightly bigger than his fist. color me wrong : O

@ jtm94 i was wrong about the disjoint on it. i still don't feel that it's necessarily significant, even compared to tink's sword, but maybe his sword is much shorter than i remember as well? that's still a pretty nutty disjoint on a bare fist.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

To be fair, the disjoint is purple magic fire. Which is pretty dang legit.

 

[JOE!]

While impressive, I dont think it is super "significant" unless his arm is invincible?

Charizard's Ftilt is very similar with it's Disjoint at his head, but his entire head and neck are invincible at the start-up making it more or less a real "disjoint"

Anywho, after getting a moment of research:


Significant Disjoint (Prominent throughout a variety of moves / a key move or two with large disjoint):
Ice Climbers
Link
Toon link
Mewtwo
Lucario
Jigglypuff (???)
Squirtle
Ivysaur
Charizard
Zero Suit Samus
Lucas
Ness
Pit
MetaKnight
Dededooze
Ike
Marth
Roy
Olimar
ROB
G&W


Projectile (They shoot something out):
Mario
Luigi
Peach (Turnips)
Bowser (Firebreath)
Yoshi
Diddy Kong
Wolf
Fox
Falco
Ice Climbers
Zelda
Sheik
Link
Toon Link
Mewtwo
Lucario
Pikachu
Squirtle
Ivysaur
Charizard
Samus
Zero Suit Samus
Lucas
Ness
Pit
Kirby (Copy Abilities)
Dededooze
Olimar
ROB
G&W
Snake


Lack Either:
Wario
DK
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf
Sonic


So, that all said... when people complain about projectiles or sword users.... they are complaining about over half the cast?

 

[SixSaw]

Well interestingly enough, Ganon's arm IS intangible for the first 20 or so frames of fair (until the hitboxes disappear)... his left arm that is, the the one not doing the punching.

There also seems to be a general misconception ITT about the meaning of "disjoint".. The only thing that matters is how far hitboxes extend away from active hurtboxes. The specific bone the hitbox is attached to is only relevant to how the hitbox moves durring an animation. For example, IC's, during several of their moves, have hitboxes which are attached to the hammer bone, yet are offset to overlap with their body hurtboxes making them hardly disjointed at all. Conversely, moves such as Puff's bair have hitboxes that are attached to the same bones as hurtboxes, yet are extremely disjointed.

 

[JOE!]

What a weird thing... the arm not being used / that is behind his torso is invincible? PMBR: Buff ganon by swapping arm invincibility

 

[Ali Baba 177]

I have a hard time beating my friend who plays Roy and I play as Lucario. It seems that He is able to hit me with a fsmash at fairly early percents while I have to work and get his percent pretty high. Any advice on being able to kill at earlier percents with lucario, or mainly just how to avoid sword characters range? Or do I just need to work on spacing a lot?
And I think Roy is a lot better than people give him credit for..,

 

[Player -0]

I have a hard time beating my friend who plays Roy and I play as Lucario. It seems that He is able to hit me with a fsmash at fairly early percents while I have to work and get his percent pretty high. Any advice on being able to kill at earlier percents with lucario, or mainly just how to avoid sword characters range? Or do I just need to work on spacing a lot?
And I think Roy is a lot better than people give him credit for..,

Roy's recovery sucks, get him offstage and then edgeguard. It'll help a lot.