Tier List Speculation

[Ace55]

Spacies secretly have among the best recoveries in the game.

Not secretly, I hope. I thought smart players were intelligent enough to recognize how many options they have and how you have to guess very well because you can't cover every option.

God this thread is going downhill.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Really? Those are the posts you pick and not the one where the dude compares nerfing Foxco to the spread of communism?

 

[Ripple]

its actually secretly going uphill

 

[SixSaw]

He made a pretty valid point tbh, somewhat inappropriate analogy aside.

 

[Ace55]

Really? Those are the posts you pick and not the one where the dude compares nerfing Foxco to the spread of communism?

He had his attention. But 'intelligent people know spacies have some of the best recoveries' really rubs me the wrong way.

 

[Paradoxium]

He had his attention. But 'intelligent people know spacies have some of the best recoveries' really rubs me the wrong way.

in Melee they had some of the best recoveries, in pm not so much

 

[CyberZixx]

in Melee they had some of the best recoveries, in pm not so much

This is how I see it. In PM many characters have that great peach floaty recovery status or great teather mix up potential. Spacie recovery is by no means bad and vastly underrated and it does annoy me when people say they have bad recoveries.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

He made a pretty valid point tbh, somewhat inappropriate analogy aside.

What valid point? That nerfing spacies would lead to negative power creep because everyone is being balanced to that power level? Slippery slope aside it more seems to me that each character is being designed with a particular kit focused towards a certain kind of playstyle (Snake, Pit and Charizard being the best examples of this) and then extensively playtested to make sure they're not overly under or overpowered. Shooting them to spacie levels would involve making everyone like 2.5 Sonic or 2.1 Luke, with ridiculous diverse tools and an overwhelming neutral.

Plus, the analogy was poorly worded and borderline racist. Nothing about that post was valid in the slightest.

 

[Snowbird]

Hear about project M, how it attempts to recreate melee and balance things out, making other character good.

Get really excited about how there is finally balance in a game where the same 4-5 characters totally dominated it. Hear its been a work in progress for the last few years, that its really awesome, etc. Even play it at a few times at a friends house and have a lot of fun, seems really great and way more balanced.

Log on to this thread, look at first page.

Speculated tier list:
High Tier
1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Shiek
4. Marth
5. Peach


.... what the? Yeah something obviously hasn't been done right -_-

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Hear about project M, how it attempts to recreate melee and balance things out, making other character good.

Get really excited about how there is finally balance in a game where the same 4-5 characters totally dominated it. Hear its been a work in progress for the last few years, that its really awesome, etc. Even play it at a few times at a friends house and have a lot of fun, seems really great and way more balanced.

Log on to this thread, look at first page.

Speculated tier list:
High Tier
1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Shiek
4. Marth
5. Peach


.... what the? Yeah something obviously hasn't been done right -_-

That thing is so outdated it ain't even funny.

No one agrees on an actual tier list, but there is a sort of consensus on the top 15.

Pretty sure Foxco are still the best though.

 

[JCOnyx]

1/24/13... yeah. They should at least take that list down, so that people don't get confused. If not, change it to the top 15 we've mostly agreed upon.

I didn't open that spoiler before since I knew no one here agrees on anything tier list wise within these forums or on our Reddit page.

EDIT: Lucas at 19, where am I and what game am I playing. xD

 

[Ripple]

I don't even think peach is considered a good singles character anymore.

she's like solid mid

 

[Plum]

Hear about project M, how it attempts to recreate melee and balance things out, making other character good.

Get really excited about how there is finally balance in a game where the same 4-5 characters totally dominated it. Hear its been a work in progress for the last few years, that its really awesome, etc. Even play it at a few times at a friends house and have a lot of fun, seems really great and way more balanced.

Log on to this thread, look at first page.

Speculated tier list:
High Tier
1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Shiek
4. Marth
5. Peach


.... what the? Yeah something obviously hasn't been done right -_-

and why exactly can't these characters still be among the best?
please by all means

 

[SixSaw]

What valid point? That nerfing spacies would lead to negative power creep because everyone is being balanced to that power level? Slippery slope aside it more seems to me that each character is being designed with a particular kit focused towards a certain kind of playstyle (Snake, Pit and Charizard being the best examples of this) and then extensively playtested to make sure they're not overly under or overpowered. Shooting them to spacie levels would involve making everyone like 2.5 Sonic or 2.1 Luke, with ridiculous diverse tools and an overwhelming neutral.

His point was the nerfing spacies isn't necessarily a good idea because they represent the prototypical "good smash character". Project M is basically founded on the assumption that there is something desirable about the Melee metagame that is worth preserving for Brawl's new content. Like it or not, Fox and Falco pretty much ARE that metagame, along with Marth, and maybe a few other top tiers. These characters being (largely) unchanged provides a concrete, familiar foundation for balance, in addition to a sense of relativity and transferability of experience between the games that helps to unite the PM and Melee fanbases which are always going to be closely associated. As much as the PMBR may understandably desire to create something that exists independent of Melee, eliminating such a meaningful 'sacred cow' as the spacies' decades of meta development, which have undoubtedly been vital to PM's general meta developing as fast as it has, in the interest of short term balance issues is only inviting whatever possibility of a slippery slope there may be. Bringing the rest of the cast up to their level instead is a much safer approach to take. 2.5 Sonic and 2.1 Ike are not examples of that. They were much, much more powerful than spacies. It's not even debatable. At least a handful of characters are pretty much already on their level right now. MK and Mewtwo being two examples imo.

Speaking of which, people are really exaggerating how dominant spacies actually are in this game anyway. The argument about tournament placings is in particular just outright dishonest in that it ignores the fact that the best players tend to have years of Melee background and consequently often feel most comfortable playing Fox and Falco.

and borderline racist.

lol what

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

You're right, nothing remotely racist about saying "asian countries had no government"

Edit: I couldn't find a quote but a lot of people say the balancing is around the level of Marth/Peach/Falcon. Who have only be improved and have just as much metagame development than Foxco without being at their 'cut above the rest' level. A lot of people do agree that spacies are too much and nerfing them does not eradicate a 'balancing goal' of any kind.

 

[Jarbinks9/11]

What valid point? That nerfing spacies would lead to negative power creep because everyone is being balanced to that power level? Slippery slope aside it more seems to me that each character is being designed with a particular kit focused towards a certain kind of playstyle (Snake, Pit and Charizard being the best examples of this) and then extensively playtested to make sure they're not overly under or overpowered. Shooting them to spacie levels would involve making everyone like 2.5 Sonic or 2.1 Luke, with ridiculous diverse tools and an overwhelming neutral.

Plus, the analogy was poorly worded and borderline racist. Nothing about that post was valid in the slightest.

Like i said in a post earlier you seem to believe that a character needs to be overpowered and broken to be on the same level as fox and falco. This is because any people do not understand the duo or how they function. Spacie level of balance has already been achieved with most characters in this game, its just that some people just can seem to learn to adapt to 13 year old characters with buffed low tiers smh.

Also fox and falco have been your scapegoats for as long as pm has been around, with people always undermining them and their players. Once they are brought down to as bad of a level as you want them to be, then there shouldnt really be anything left to keep several of the more unpopular characters unnerfed either. Every person whos complained that current ivysaur is unbalanced would now be able to more comfortably push for nerfs. People already dont understand many characters places in terms ofhow strong they are, and without the ability to say "well at least theyre not as op as fox and falco" to dismiss claims of brokenness, people will quickly become even more confused and lose sight of where they wanted characters to end up strength wise. I could honestly believe that arguments of fox upsmash too strong and falco down air too brain dead could transition to marth fsmash too strong puff back air too brain dead in a moments notice, and it would apply to pm characters as well. If you still believe fox and falco are too strong then at the very least let them linger as a sort of cap on character balance that should not be surpassed until everything else is figured out, and then do with them as you please.

On a side note however marth and sheik have very even mus with spacies in melee, try to figure out what it is that makes them work so well against them instead of characters like dk or falcon before simply saying stuff like predicting is too hard and lasers are unavoidable. If for whatever reason you cant understand why marth and sheik do well just ask someone like mango or m2k who have figured the characters out more than anyone. Personally i feel like fox and falcos recoveries are the example of a recovery done right, several options that are all beatable and heavily punishable if you predict correctly, which isnt too hard considering that several attacks can cover many options at once making chances of failure slimmer. Besides fast paced, read based gameplay where control never leaves the players fingertips even as the victim (having options at all times) is what people were drawn towards in melee in the first place.

 

[Paradoxium]

This is how I see it. In PM many characters have that great peach floaty recovery status or great teather mix up potential. Spacie recovery is by no means bad and vastly underrated and it does annoy me when people say they have bad recoveries.

Well on the spectrum of pm recoveries, fox's is decent, falcos is complete ****. But i think the buff in recoveries is a result of trying to balance the spacies

 

[Jarbinks9/11]

You're right, nothing remotely racist about saying "asian countries had no government"

Edit: I couldn't find a quote but a lot of people say the balancing is around the level of Marth/Peach/Falcon. Who have only be improved and have just as much metagame development than Foxco without being at their 'cut above the rest' level. A lot of people do agree that spacies are too much and nerfing them does not eradicate a 'balancing goal' of any kind.

I have many asian friends and none of them get offended when i say they have no government. Stop fighting a battle that doesnt exist.

 

[Vashimus]

I'm seeing too much of this right now.

Spoiler

None of us have actually tested nerfed P:M spacies in a vacuum, and saying they should be left alone because other characters will end up being nerfed along with them is ridiculous. If the PMBR has shown us anything with the shine nerfs, it shows they're already willing to experiment with small tweaks to the spacies if it betters the quality of the game. I don't have a problem with it either way.

 

[Terotrous]

O.o i havent seen that happen before from either tournament matches or cpus. What is a an AGT? Is it like a wavedash in the air?

"Aerial Glide Toss", do an air dodge while holding an item, then immediately press a button to throw it, you'll continue moving in that direction but it won't consume your air dodge.

Note though that that level of extreme stalling was only possible because there's a wall down there that he was repeatedly wall jumping from. AGT isn't that ludicrously broke on its own.

I think fox and falco are decent, but not anything special in this game.

Everyone seems to forget how easy it is to combo/gimp them in P:M.

Fire Fox / Falco is super easy to gimp, but don't forget that you do have to get them off and below the stage first, and smart spacie players deliberately avoid the edges of the stage at low percents to try to prevent you from just tossing them off. They also typically prefer wide stages like Final Destination, Smashville, and Pokemon Stadium 2 where they can stay towards the middle of the screen, reducing the risk of a gimp.

If you watch high level play, spacies usually get gimped approximately once per match. Even then, they're still strong. The gimp is the only thing that keeps them from being ludicrously OP.

 

[Jarbinks9/11]

I'm seeing too much of this of right now.

Spoiler

None of us have actually tested nerfed P:M spacies in a vacuum, and saying they should be left alone because other characters will end up being nerfed along with them is ridiculous. If the PMBR has shown us anything with the shine nerfs, it shows they're already willing to experiment with small tweaks to the spacies if it betters the quality of the game. I don't have a problem with it either way.

But how much is enough? There are people that do in fact believe that the laser nerfs already make them nearlyobsolete, and people are still pushing for nerfs in other areas. How can people who imo dont truly understand the strengths and weaknesses of the characters be trusted to know when to stop with balance nerfs?

 

[Terotrous]

Speaking of which, people are really exaggerating how dominant spacies actually are in this game anyway. The argument about tournament placings is in particular just outright dishonest in that it ignores the fact that the best players tend to have years of Melee background and consequently often feel most comfortable playing Fox and Falco.

I don't think this is true, we seem to have pretty much agreed that only minor spacie nerfs are needed to keep them from being overly dominant. No one is suggesting taking away jump cancel on the shine or anything.

I personally feel the ideal level for balance is around where Peach, Link, Mario, Wolf, Mewtwo, and Ivy are. Each of these characters has something they do really well, while also generally being solid in other areas. This makes them feel unique, while also avoiding them having matchups that they just cannot win.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

But how much is enough? There are people that do in fact believe that the laser nerfs already make them nearlyobsolete, and people are still pushing for nerfs in other areas. How can people who imo dont truly understand the strengths and weaknesses of the characters be trusted to know when to stop with balance nerfs?

Yeah, no one has any idea what game balance or good design is besides you. Please continue to Enlighten us.

Actual constructive point: See Wolf (spacie done right), Ivy, Lucas, Marth, Peach, Pit, Meta Knight (a properly nerfed character), Sheik, Wario, Ike, Zero Suit and I could name a few more. A proper goal for balance exists and spacies are above it. But only slightly.

 

[Vashimus]

But how much is enough? There are people that do in fact believe that the laser nerfs already make them nearlyobsolete, and people are still pushing for nerfs in other areas. How can people who imo dont truly understand the strengths and weaknesses of the characters be trusted to know when to stop with balance nerfs?

This is why these changes get tested in a vacuum first. You don't think the PMBR gets bored and one day some guy comes in like "Hey guys look. I made a version of Fox with a slightly nerfed Up-Smash. Anyone wanna FT5"?

 

[JCOnyx]

I don't think this is true, we seem to have pretty much agreed that only minor spacie nerfs are needed to keep them from being overly dominant. No one is suggesting taking away jump cancel on the shine or anything.

I personally feel the ideal level for balance is around where Peach, Link, Mario, Wolf, Mewtwo, and Ivy are. Each of these characters has something they do really well, while also generally being solid in other areas. This makes them feel unique, while also avoiding them having matchups that they just cannot win.

God, it's probably just my tournament inexperience (have only attended 2 so far), but I find Mario to be more infuriating then the spacies by far. That obnoxiously good recovery combined with tools to handle damn near everything besides Marth tier spacing. Most likely the matchup I struggle the most with by far (I seriously need to learn how to power shield reliably).

But I'm not going to lie, he's most likely a good base to work from. I still think Wolf is a better base though...

 

[Jarbinks9/11]

Yeah, no one has any idea what game balance or good design is besides you. Please continue to Enlighten us.

Actual constructive point: See Wolf (spacie done right), Ivy, Lucas, Marth, Peach, Pit, Meta Knight (a properly nerfed character), Sheik, Wario, Ike, Zero Suit and I could name a few more. A proper goal for balance exists and spacies are above it. But only slightly.

I wasnt saying that. Only that people didnt understand fox and falco. M2k has talked about this on several occasions in the past. Id also argue that many of those characters are all already on par with fox and falco. And ive seen for months people say that wolf is a properly designed soace animal but i could never get behind that statement when he barely feels similar. How can you call him a spacie when he cant be played as aggresively and has a worse shine game (harder to apply and also to incorporate into punishes) while also being less punishable and has a stronger recovery? He feels like mario if he was given a shine and a faster fall speed. Outside of those two traits and maybe a few others hes pretty much his own breed.

But thats fine. If small tweaks are what youre looking for then i could handle that. However apply them to outside subject testing with a diverse pool of elite players, such as pp md and some mers like oracle instead of letting the community playtest and decide. While i disagree with the inherent need to "balance" spacies, i could make a few suggestions. For fox there is the simple upsmash and upair power nerfs, which shouldnt really be drastic enough to keep him from killing 7% higher at minimum. And you could maybe take the fire off of his up special start up to make gimping him easier without risking a stock offstage just to kill him. For falco just make his dair decay slightly faster to be like his other sex kicks, and make his fsnash a little weaker like fox's. Change his side special from a meteor smash to a something with a 60-45 degree angle of knockback for the same recovery related reasons as foxs fire, while also retaining the same amount of situational use as an attack. Anything more than this is too much.

 

[Terotrous]

God, it's probably just my tournament inexperience (have only attended 2 so far), but I find Mario to be more infuriating then the spacies by far. That obnoxiously good recovery combined with tools to handle damn near everything besides Marth tier spacing. Most likely the matchup I struggle the most with by far (I seriously need to learn how to power shield reliably).

I think the thing is it just feels weird to see Mario being strong. We have 10 years worth of mental conditioning to overcome that tells us that Mario should always be crap. Then you see him being fast and mobile and having big combos and it's just like what game are we playing?

I actually don't think there's anything about Mario that's OP though, he's just really solid, he's going to put in work no matter what the matchup.

 

[Jarbinks9/11]

God, it's probably just my tournament inexperience (have only attended 2 so far), but I find Mario to be more infuriating then the spacies by far. That obnoxiously good recovery combined with tools to handle damn near everything besides Marth tier spacing. Most likely the matchup I struggle the most with by far (I seriously need to learn how to power shield reliably).

But I'm not going to lie, he's most likely a good base to work from. I still think Wolf is a better base though...

Mario gets easier to handle as you become a stronger player, just like marth. While at first it feels like his fireballs are difficult to space around and are too easy to convert off of, and his downsmash is too powerful, as your spacing and punish game improve, the fact that mario is slow with no range becomes a much more apparent downside. Hes still incredible and is fairly easy to use so its not abnormal to get frustrated fighting him.

 

[Jarbinks9/11]

I think the thing is it just feels weird to see Mario being strong. We have 10 years worth of mental conditioning to overcome that tells us that Mario should always be crap. Then you see him being fast and mobile and having big combos and it's just like what game are we playing?

I actually don't think there's anything about Mario that's OP though, he's just really solid, he's going to put in work no matter what the matchup.

Mario isnt bad in melee lol. And hes barely different from mario and doc in melee. Its just that people believe that hes good in pm, and the absence of a mental block helps push them to discover his dormant skills from melee. His combos arent any different from melee outside of his dtilt being useful, having incredible projectiles, and docs grab.

 

[Rᴏb]

But thats fine. If small tweaks are what youre looking for then i could handle that. However apply them to outside subject testing with a diverse pool of elite players, such as pp md and some mers like oracle instead of letting the community playtest and decide. While i disagree with the inherent need to "balance" spacies, i could make a few suggestions. For fox there is the simple upsmash and upair power nerfs, which shouldnt really be drastic enough to keep him from killing 7% higher at minimum. And you could maybe take the fire off of his up special start up to make gimping him easier without risking a stock offstage just to kill him. For falco just make his dair decay slightly faster to be like his other sex kicks, and make his fsnash a little weaker like fox's. Change his side special from a meteor smash to a something with a 60-45 degree angle of knockback for the same recovery related reasons as foxs fire, while also retaining the same amount of situational use as an attack.

Anything more than this is too much.

Dude, nobody wants more than that; if even all of that.
plz pmbr

 

[Deleted member]

i wish all the social justice warriors would stay on tumblr and stay off of the rest of the internet.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

i wish all the social justice warriors would stay on tumblr and stay off of the rest of the internet.

... is this me you're talking about?

Edit: K, I scanned and didn't see anything SJW-ey. You sure you posted in the right thread?

 

[B.W.]

Mario isnt bad in melee lol.

Mario was pretty bad in Melee. Coming to you from a Melee Mario/Doc main.

Mario's fireball cooldown buff made him a real pain to deal with. He also got slight buffs to his mobility, and one of the biggest buffs he got was to his recovery.

On top of this stuff he literally has all the best stuff from Mario and Doc, and that alone made him a much more solid character base to begin with.

 

[Strong Badam]

man i wish we could talk about tiers instead of star fox romances

 

[Plum]

there's like fourteen posts on every page of this thread that say stuff like "Fox is only doing as well as he in PM is because X, Y, and Z"
but like
maybe
just maybe
and I'm going a bit out there on this one
maybe...
Fox is just insanely good still

 

[9bit]

man i wish we could talk about tiers instead of star fox romances

Team Falco, bruh!

Krystal was always meant to be with him OK!?

(I would continue this Twilight parody, but I have literally run out of information that I know about Twilight)

Real talk, where the hell is Yoshi on the tier list? That dude is like, in a quantum superstate right now.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I don't even know anymore.

And it depends on if the PMBR has managed to fix parrying.

 

[jtm94]

There are a lot of good recoveries in Melee, do not get it twisted.

The buff in recoveries in Brawl comes from characters that are viable that are not Fox/Falco. People underrate their recoveries and overrate the rest. If Falco can have a terribad recovery and still be the best, then recovery clearly is not an issue that we need to discuss. See what I did, I backed up my point with logic. Crazy I know.

Marth is not even with Fox or Falco. I have talked to Mango and M2K at tournies and Sheik is only even with Fox on certain stages, like FoD. And time and time again I hear from top level players that Marth is only legitimate as a counter pick if you can go Final Destination.

I say leave spacies where they are at the top. They're fine, Melee made them that way, Sakurai created them to be good. It was just a shame Melee couldn't have been better with it's extremely unbalanced cast, the lack of tourney variety is what turns me away from Melee, despite it being an almost perfect game.

All I know is that a handful of characters in PM are a little too easy to be decent with. Ivy, Link, Mewtwo, Zelda.
Then there are a few characters who take a lot more than average effort to milk decent results from. GnW, Squirtle, Olimar

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

All I know is that a handful of characters in PM are a little too easy to be decent with. Ivy, Link, Mewtwo, Zelda.
Then there are a few characters who take a lot more than average effort to milk decent results from. GnW, Squirtle, Olimar

why olimar? It seems to me that he is relatively easy to do decently with, from personal experience

 

[Empyrean]

Maybe that stems from the fact that no one understands wtf Olimar is doing most of the time.