Tier List Speculation

[V3ctorMan]

That is an old video. Of Vectorman. Literally playing P:M for the first time.

Hey everyone!

I'm unsure if this topic is still important/relevant to anyone, but I did/do want to clear up a few things with everyone...

Indeed it has been stated, that I have no intention of "focusing" on PM, and sadly I do hold true to that... Again I don't believe i'm "talented" enough as a player to play "multiple" games without damaging/ruining my mindset for one of the games... (ex: I might start actually trying to jump oos in melee or something ) (it's this exact reason why I STILL can't remember that I can jump OoS in P.M) <--- Again i'm not very talented, to remember such fundamentals, I've been trained too long in one of the games) I'm not like many of you who can play multiple games and be very competent... I'm kinda good at one or the other. but im working on it.. but Im not going to sit here and lie to you if i can/can't do something.. I'm simple

Anyway to go on what I was saying, please don't get it twisted, of me not playing P.M. I live in a VERY small town here in AZ. About 3.5 hours from the rest of AZ's finest players that most of you know of... Sadly I am, the "lone ranger" of my city. As I am the only competent player in my area, so the "lack of exposure" I get compared to the rest of AZ is very noticeable.. The closest to me is well, 1.5 hours away from me, and it's basically one person otherwise it's the 3.5hours, so I do admit, the me "purely focusing on melee" has also been very difficult, but i'm one of the most motivated players that you will NEVER talk or hear about.. I like it that way And I like to keep "under the radar" It keeps "expectations" low from people, and gives other players the exposure they may/may not desire.. and gives other(s) a chance to show their skills ^^

I admit, I probably have only played P.M. the 2 times with Calabrel, and Apex 2014. I have yet to play again vs another player, since then. (not necessarily because I don't want to. I actually can't. Calabrel is rather busy, it seems? I work 2 jobs that MAYBE gives me one day off a week... HOWEVER, I can say I've played P.M. maybe vs a few CPU's.. maybe once a week (haha bragging about playing vs CPUs, wooot) I will definitely say it's False, that I don't play P.M. I indeed do... I simply don't attempt to show myself to the world, and who'd want to watch Yoshi vs a CPU? ya know? You gotta use what you have, and well, I don't have the luxury of people, but that's ok. Don't get it twisted though, I have stated, and promised that I will continue to further, help all the thriving P.M. players that want to play Yoshi, and further his outstanding potential. I might just not have a way to do so yet. It doesn't mean this guy isn't in the lab figuring things out for you guys though.. I'm indeed doing what I can, nobody knows it yet (well I guess till now)

At the end of the day, again I'm a competitor, and up until recently was in a sense the "lone Yoshi" (that attended nationals, people knew of/heard of/placed etc... aMSa, is the greatest gift, competitor, motivation, rival, idol, student, I could go on, and on.. that has happened to me... and he is achieving things that I eventually want to also achieve. Sure I got a 1up on him in P.M. but he has a 1up on me in melee, <--- (and hey this is the one I want) We in a sense need each other to push each other to the next step/level to push us further and further... and of course ANY/ALL aspiring P.M/melee Yoshi players...

TLDR: in short, I'm around, lurking, playing... Hidden.....but I'm around, alot more than you guys may think or may know...

I'll leave it with this... You haven't seen my Yoshi REALLY play yet... but you will... I promise. I'm not going to sit here and say, I'm the best Yoshi P.M. player or aMSa, or whomever, I will say though, there will be one of you out there that will surpass us, or show us, whatever you wanna call it... and I'd hope, that we'd be a large help/influence on your way to get there though. aMSa, and I talk, (alot actually) and we hope and we KNOW one of you out there, at least one of you, will surpass anything that we are in P.M. that's for sure. and hopefully we get to help you get there.

 

[JOE!]

Vectorman is the Yoshi P:M Deserves... but not the one it needs right now...

So we'll keep asking him to play. Because he can take it.

Because he's not our hero.

He's a lone guardian.

A watchful dinosaur.

An Egg Knight.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

Im really iffy on toon links whole design. It feels like hes got the whole amazing spiderman deal going on with him, in that hes trying to be two completely different things at the same time. Hes like a hybrid of the most hardcore camp character in pm mixed with some of the craziest combo potential in the game, and bad gimpable recovery. Its like hes not stellar at either camp or offense yet he has no inbetween equilibrium between the two?

Have you watched Aero's Toon Link? That recovery is not easily gimped....

 

[Jacob29]

char

 

[Terotrous]

Is wolf underpowered or something?

He seems totally viable, just not quite as dominating as Fox and Falco because they put reasonable thought into his design. Fox and Falco's movesets just contain some really questionable decisions.

Doesn't Pikachu's UpSmash come out just as quickly (if not more so) and kills off the top even earlier than Fox's? Not to mention she has Thunder which can help finish the job if you catch your opponent off guard. These people and their excessive complaining of Fox's UpSmash...

Yes, Pika UpSmash is almost just as good as Fox UpSmash. The difference is that Pika isn't significantly above average in every other respect as well, so for him to have this one super strong aspect to his toolset isn't as broken.

If Pika somehow came to dominate the metagame, UpSmash would probably be the first thing to be looked at.

 

[Axrz]

If Pika somehow came to dominate the metagame, UpSmash would probably be the first thing to be looked at.

Have you seen Quick Attack? it's already ridiculous enough to warrant a look at.

 

[Terotrous]

Have you seen Quick Attack? it's already ridiculous enough to warrant a look at.

That too, but in any case until Pikachu starts pulling in the tournament results there's no real proof that it's necessary.

 

[XXXX1000]

Yeah, while Pikachu's up-smash doesn't really make sense, it is definitely not driving out a lot of other characters or polarizing gameplay around Pikachu as much. Characters having randomly strong moves isn't a bad thing in itself.

The main problem with Fox's usmash is that he already has so much to work with. He's super fast, can kill off the top with both usmash and uthrow-uair, has a ridiculous shine that can punish shield pressure or whatever else you want it to, and also a decent gimp game due to shine. he has SO many options. To the guy complaining about usmash changing how you play fox: honestly that's bull****. If you had to wait 20% longer to fish for an up-smash, your game would hardly change. Changing Shine mechanics, or uthrow knockback, or running speed, those could change your game, and honestly I think touching Shine mechanics IS serious, changing the way a move functions shouldn't be taken lightly. Reducing knockback on kill moves like usmash and uair would just mean you'd need to work a little bit harder for your kills. Changing uair or usmash would actually affect Fox the least out of all the other proposed changes I've seen.

 

[Time2Play]

Can you guys please stop talking about moves that possible have to be nerfed? It's really annoying and leads to nothing. It's just hilarious that people want his QAC to be looked at. Seriously lets nerf all moves before we even see how good they truely are.

 

[lordvaati]

I think the diff lies in that Melee all characters were built around Mario for design, while P:M it was more so Fox.

 

[Axrz]

Can you guys please stop talking about moves that possible have to be nerfed? It's really annoying and leads to nothing. It's just hilarious that people want his QAC to be looked at. Seriously lets nerf all moves before we even see how good they truely are.

I was commenting specifically on Terotrous' post saying that upsmash would be the first thing looked at. QAC is far more centralizing to his gameplan than his upsmash is. I didn't say it needs to be nerfed.

it's also difficult to really talk about anything worthwhile in this thread because people are constantly saying that the metagame isn't developed enough (or whatever) to get a good idea about a tier list.

 

[Terotrous]

Well I think it's fairly obvious that if a character is too good, the first things you would look into is things they have that are unusually good compared to the rest of the cast. The key part is "if they are too good", though. There is nothing yet to suggest that Pika is too good. On the other hand, the fact that spacies are dominating the top 8 of every tournament ever definitely makes them a bit more suspect.

I also don't think the spacies need a major adjustment. They're not THAT much better than other good characters, if you could evaluate total character effectiveness they maybe have a 5% edge overall. However, that 5% is enough to be significant over a lot of matches, like a tournament with a lot of players.

 

[Jarbinks9/11]

Have you watched Aero's Toon Link? That recovery is not easily gimped....

Well if toon link is below the stage he has trouble surviving, even with a jump because itll usually be exhausted just to get him near the ledge in the first place to compensate for his short spin attack. The bomb jumps only really allow him to extend his recovery further but not really aid his susceptibility to being edgegaurded like with luigis missile and falcons falcon kick

 

[JCOnyx]

wolf isn't underpowered, it's more like he was done correctly and doesn't have a neutral game that warps his interaction with the rest of the cast, as opposed to say fox/falco. wolf is probably how fox/falco should be play out ideally.

edit: this game's pacing is already more offensive than melee's. i think it's fine to regulate characters that are blatantly over the cast average in terms of goodness.

If I was somehow convincing people that Wolf is underpowered, that wasn't what I was going for at all. I was just trying to say that, unlike certain other characters, the properties on his moves have more options for the opponent to deal with them. And in turn makes the Wolf players have to be more cautions or pay closer attention to how the opponent DI's when comboing them. The only move in his arsenal I find that doesn't follow that trend (and happens to be one of his best) would be his Uair. The amazing disjointed hitbox/reach/juggling capabilities that move has is just sweet.

I'd take it one step above you and say that all characters should be balanced to about Wolf's level. He's probably has one of the greatest, most interesting, and balanced movesets the PMBR has made to date.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Well if toon link is below the stage he has trouble surviving, even with a jump because itll usually be exhausted just to get him near the ledge in the first place to compensate for his short spin attack.

Bull****. AGT and bomb jumps enable Tinks to save their DJs and get close to the ledge at the same time, at which point they can DJ to spin, DJ to Airdodge, DJ to stall to Airdodge to tether, airdodge to tether, DJ to walljump to airdodge, etc. etc. etc. Tink's do not want for versatility and only get more options depending on the stage.

The bomb jumps only really allow him to extend his recovery further but not really aid his susceptibility to being edgegaurded like with luigis missile and falcons falcon kick

See above. Tink's bomb jumps give him distance, and his tether and walljump (which Link, who gets flak for an amazing recovery, lacks) give him versatility and options. What the hell more do you want?

Aero's Tink has managed to work around being edgeguarded by Fly Amanita's Dedede and Sheik. i.e. an Apex top 8 player who uses two of the best edgeguarders in the game.

No johns.

 

[Strong Badam]

the dude has 9 posts calm down bro.
just link this and be done with it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITdM66k3AE0

 

[Jarbinks9/11]

Im still not convinced that we need to nerf fox and falco. I dont think that there is any character that has any moves or attacks that make matches polarizing or annoying in the current build, and i feel that the best designed characters currently are already on par with the best melee top tiers, like at least 10 pm characters. When i hear that balancing around the two is destructive and only promotes skilless gimmicks and auto combos i just think its absurd. I personally think that anybody who holds this belief that the only way you can keep up with them is to add broken options to characters and that balancing below them is ideal doesnt understand fox and falco truly and how they compare in relation to other characters. You dont need to make things like pikachus thunderjolt have 10 second hitstun just to keep up with them. Characters like meta knight and link and marth are already on par with them without having broken tools.

The way i see it the moment that fox and falco are brought down to wolf or pikachu level of badness people will lose all understanding of character balance, and chaos would ensue. Now with fox and falco nerfed and people unsure of where to aim with character design, everyone with a seemingly broken design will be gradually nerfed down to melee mario level, like a reverse power creep. I remember reading something in school about a domino effect of communists where by living near communists you would eventually become a communist yourself. Because they had no government or authority to tell them how they should behave many asian countries became communist, and each of the surrounding countries were made to be communist as well. Everything plummeted just because people forgot their identity and way of life. Now you may disagree with my opinion but id personally like to avoid a situation like that with project m. I say leave them around for a bit and pay a little more attention to how fox and falco perform, and see how many randoms make top 8 instead of just top players like weon x and mango etc.

 

[Jarbinks9/11]

the dude has 9 posts calm down bro.
just link this and be done with it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITdM66k3AE0

O.o i havent seen that happen before from either tournament matches or cpus. What is a an AGT? Is it like a wavedash in the air?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Now with fox and falco nerfed and people unsure of where to aim with character design, everyone with a seemingly broken design will be gradually nerfed down to melee mario level, like a reverse power creep. I remember reading something in school about a domino effect of communists where by living near communists you would eventually become a communist yourself. Because they had no government or authority to tell them how they should behave many asian countries became communist, and each of the surrounding countries were made to be communist as well. Everything plummeted just because people forgot their identity and way of life.

Wat

Spoiler

Am I being enlightened

 

[Jarbinks9/11]

Wat

Spoiler

Am I being enlightened

Well, only if you havent read about it before. They talk about the cold war in 10th grade world history but if you dont have an american education i cant be certain that they give courses on that. :/

 

[Deleted member]

Here is my tier list of project M 3.02. Please note that this list is completely in my opinion:


S Tier
(Characters that are above average)

A Tier
(Characters that are average)

B Tier
(Characters that are below average)

If anyone wants to make there own using these images I made, they are in alphabetical order below.

Spoiler

 

[Kaeldiar]

Very few people take issue with Wolf. Usually when people refer to spacies in this context they refer to Fox & Falco specifically and aren't including Wolf.

Funny that you say that, because I find that Wolf might be the best spacie. The only thing missing from his repertoire is a solid shine game. I don't know yet how much of a problem this is going to be, but looking at guys like Rat make me think that Wolf could possibly outrank Fox and Falco.

 

[Jarbinks9/11]

Here is my tier list of project M 3.02. Please note that this list is completely in my opinion:


S Tier
(Characters that are above average)

A Tier
(Characters that are average)

B Tier
(Characters that are below average)

If anyone wants to make there own using these images I made, they are in alphabetical order below.

Spoiler

Nice list ^_^ i agree with almost everything on here. Whats your reasoning for placing toon link so high?

Funny that you say that, because I find that Wolf might be the best spacie. The only thing missing from his repertoire is a solid shine game. I don't know yet how much of a problem this is going to be, but looking at guys like Rat make me think that Wolf could possibly outrank Fox and Falco.

Why do you think wolf might be better than them? I think he looks really strong imo but Strong bad was saying that most people think hes lacking compared to the rest of the cast and i feel that when that many people believe in something that it must have some merit. I think his shine is bigger than fox and falco so that could potentially make him able to use it more often than fox.

 

[Vashimus]

Wolf's only legitimate drawback is that he gets suffers a lot of collateral damage since most of the cast are given tools to combat Fox and Falco better. Other than that, he's honestly the most well-designed Brawl character by far.

 

[JOE!]

Dis somebody really just compare nerfing space animals to the spread of communism?

 

[Deleted member]

I feel toon link is high, because he's one of those characters with good recovery + weight, hard to approach because of the projectile festival, his down grab is a murderous tool, and his aerials are good to boot.

 

[MagnesD3]

Very few people take issue with Wolf. Usually when people refer to spacies in this context they refer to Fox & Falco specifically and aren't including Wolf.

Exactly because Wolf is very well designed. Fox and Falco's design on the other hand need some deep thought put into them when they are eventually rebalanced some.

 

[Jarbinks9/11]

I feel toon link is high, because he's one of those characters with good recovery + weight, hard to approach because of the projectile festival, his down grab is a murderous tool, and his aerials are good to boot.

Doesnt he have the same weight as roy and wolf and the same fallspeed as sheik ganon and link? Wouldnt that make him easy to combo/chaingrab?

 

[Deleted member]

Idk I'm not a toon link player, this is just based on players I've faced and a ton a vg boot camp vids I've watched.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Wouldnt that make him easy to combo/chaingrab?

Fox and Falco are the easiest to combo and chaingrab. See how bad they are?

 

[Jarbinks9/11]

Fox and Falco are the easiest to combo and chaingrab. See how bad they are?

I dont think theyre too bad tbh. Their punish games help offset their comboability. Its like 50-50 punish wise with the entire cast imo. So while i agree that they dont have any good mus i disagree that they lose to most of the cast.

 

[Soft Serve]

Fox and falco aren't the easiest to combo. expecially at low percents, continuing combos on them requires a lot of resets and tech chases, things that are hard to do against them due to good tech-rolls (among the fastest/safest in melee) and a first frame hitbox on wakeup. They are easy to juggling into finishers at mid/high percents, but zero to deaths are not guaranteed without good reactions/reads.

That would be an interesting place to hit them actually, hitting their tech-rolls and other wakeup options could be a decent roundabout way to tone them down, if the PMBR decides to go that route.

The easy to combo characters are the fatties like ROB/DK/DDD/bowser/zard, etc. These guys don't go anywhere when you hit them and dont have fast moves to break out of combos.

 

[Burning Boom]

I dont think theyre too bad tbh. Their punish games help offset their comboability. Its like 50-50 punish wise with the entire cast imo. So while i agree that they dont have any good mus i disagree that they lose to most of the cast.

Sarcasm my friend, learn it.

 

[bolt.]

I think fox and falco are decent, but not anything special in this game.

Everyone seems to forget how easy it is to combo/gimp them in P:M.

Also, it's really hard to pick up fox and falco compared to other characters. I think most P:M characters are super easy to pick up and be solid with.

Every character I have played so far has the tools to beat everyone and nobody seems unplayable or way too good.

My point is, let the game flesh out a bit and see if you can develop the characters more before talking about nerfing/buffing.

 

[Ripple]

No, everyone remembers how hard it is to touch them in the first place without an unfavorable trade

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Daily reminder that characters being 'given tools to combat Fox/Falco' isn't a thing and is a result of them being fast fallers.

No one ever says people were given tools to beat Captain Falcon. DansGame

 

[MagnesD3]

Daily reminder that characters being 'given tools to combat Fox/Falco' isn't a thing and is a result of them being fast fallers.

No one ever says people were given tools to beat Captain Falcon. DansGame

You mean "FloeNiggaFloe"

 

[Plum]

Gimping spacies isn't easy.
They have a disgusting amount of options when recovering and gimping them involves guessing right.
The only time you really have an actual easy gimp is when they are forced to Up B below the stage. If they are even or above the stage they have 172834574182584 possible recovery routes and you have to guess which one they are going to use... and if you guess wrong they probably get back on stage for free. There are dozens of different Up B angles (technically 352...), four different Side B variations (three cancels and no cancel), Shine stalling, they can go for the ledge, land onstage, land on a platform, ledge canceling, blah blah blah

Spacies secretly have among the best recoveries in the game.
Each individual option they have is super easy to gimp but it doesn't matter much when you have a million options.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Spacies secretly have among the best recoveries in the game.

Not secretly, I hope. I thought smart players were intelligent enough to recognize how many options they have and how you have to guess very well because you can't cover every option. Smashville is secretly an amazing spacie stage: Moving platform can take their shortens/Fire angle/airdodge mindgames and options to a new level.

Falco does have it slightly worse due to his short Up-B length and (I'm pretty sure) higher fallspeed that forces him to uses Side-B a lot of the time, or bones him a certain point past the stage. Even so I've seen clever spacies use walljumps to their advantage on Yoshi's/GHZ etc. They're a lot less boned offstage than people make it out to be.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Eh let's not get out of hand.
Spacies essentially have the choice of illusioning on stage or to the edge, or firefoxing. If they Firefox, you have about a second of lag, then sweetspot, wall-hug, or go high onstage. Both b moves have crap priority and get brutalized by any sort of lasting aerial. Also, wall-hug doesn't work as well as it did in Melee because of the curving.

Their recoveries are only really good against opponents who refuse to jump off stage. A DJ lasting aerial near ledge height completely covers the illusion options. Then because of the lag in Firefox, you STILL have time to get back to stage and either hit it directly during startup or cover the sweetspot and get a grab/punish if they go high (depending on platforms).

I'm not saying that they have a bad recovery really, but they aren't among the best in the game and are very susceptible to gimps.

Thinking about it, I'm not sure where wolf's recovery compares to the others... I'm leaning towards thinking he has better options and timing but *shrug