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Tier List Speculation

MagnesD3

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I think the dudes Oracle mentioned benefit a lot from being able to more easily escape Up throw -> Up air. But their floatiness still hurts them because when it connects, it kills and it will connect sooner or later.

I honestly think it wouldn't be awful is a character had mostly even match-ups across the board. I feel like that's the sort of characters the spacies are intented to be - but they're not. Fox at the very least is above average in all respects - offensive options, OoS options, shield pressure, camping, kill power, combo power, and even recovery. No, his recovery is good, and being made of combonium hardly hurts when he has the tools to not get hit more often than he gets hit.

I don't know, I feel like this game can live with him and Falco being as they are, but they will skew viability charts a whole lot.
But Lording if the spacies are rebalanced anymore all the melee players will drop Fox and falco and not play their "non main" game PM that they dont even practice anyway, and that would be just so horrible for them to drop a game they dont even really care about...
 
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Terotrous

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Dude.

Mew2King. Versus. DEHF. Apex 2014. Loser's Finals.

This isn't even obscure.
Oh yeah, I've seen this before, I just couldn't find it again. I blame the fact that the thumbnail shows Marth vs Fox.

Definitely a godlike performance in any case. I feel like the stage choice was a mistake though. Mewtwo gets combos here all day, and Fox gets fairly little out of it. I think FD probably would have been a better choice, and try to sneak in more UpSmash. He started going for it later on but by then it was too late.


But Lording if the spacies are rebalanced anymore all the melee players will drop Fox and falco and not play their "non main" game PM that they dont even practice anyway, and that would be just so horrible for them to drop a game they dont even really care about...
Maybe sarcasm, but I don't think this is true. It's important for the spacies to feel like they did in Melee, because people enjoyed playing as them, but they don't have to be quite as powerful. No one would suddenly drop Fox (and PM) if his upsmash had 25% less knockback, for example.
 

Thane of Blue Flames

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But Lording if the spacies are rebalanced anymore all the melee players will drop Fox and falco and not play their "non main" game PM that they dont even practice anyway, and that would be just so horrible for them to drop a game they dont even really care about...
Word.

A good chunk of the melee community does support us ... but I feel like the ones that do would understand that a) PM intends to play like a Melee sequel, not 1:1 mapping. Frankly it's absurd how much of the Melee top 10 carries over already. b) Nerfs to certain characters for the sake of overall balance are good, positive and reasonable.

Or IDK, maybe they'll set their SD cards on fire if Foxco get even the slightest adjustment. I don't know at this point and I don't know if it's a risk P:M can afford to take. We'll see.

Maybe sarcasm, but I don't think this is true. It's important for the spacies to feel like they did in Melee, because people enjoyed playing as them, but they don't have to be quite as powerful. No one would suddenly drop Fox (and PM) if his upsmash had 25% less knockback, for example.
Also this. Spacies can be touched up while having identical playstyles but made more reasonable. But whatever, enough people have complained about the spacies already. The PMBR's hands are pretty tied on this one, so whatevs.

Side note, it's mild but it doesn't really help that M2K spreads misinformation about PM whenever he's on stream. "Sheik sucks. Link is top. Ivy and Pit are broken. Pit beats Fox. Ike beats Fox 70-30." Etc. Dude means well but forms perceptions quick and is hard to convince otherwise, seems like.
 
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Strong Badam

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ike loses to a lot of chars esp ones with projectiles but does well against most others, hes pretty mid-tier.
 

MagnesD3

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Oh yeah, I've seen this before, I just couldn't find it again. I blame the fact that the thumbnail shows Marth vs Fox.

Definitely a godlike performance in any case. I feel like the stage choice was a mistake though. Mewtwo gets combos here all day, and Fox gets fairly little out of it. I think FD probably would have been a better choice, and try to sneak in more UpSmash. He started going for it later on but by then it was too late.



Maybe sarcasm, but I don't think this is true. It's important for the spacies to feel like they did in Melee, because people enjoyed playing as them, but they don't have to be quite as powerful. No one would suddenly drop Fox (and PM) if his upsmash had 25% less knockback, for example.
Id hope they wouldnt quit but you saw how much an uproar there was about taking the invincibility away from shine, they cant stand change..
 

Ripple

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I didn't see 1 actual person who wasn't trolling complain about the spacie nerfs
 

Thane of Blue Flames

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ike loses to a lot of chars esp ones with projectiles but does well against most others, hes pretty mid-tier.
Yeah, I just feel that in match-ups where I should be doing well I can still get clobbered and in the ones I'm losing I still have a fighting chance*. His MUs are prolly more skewed than I give it credit for, though.

*Except Falco. Fork Falco right in the dishwasher.
 

SpiderMad

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We've already shown that matchup charts voted by the community are things nobody agrees on in the end. I don't main Fox or Falco, so I shouldn't really have a say in their matchups besides Samus and like, Peach.
If someones able to utilize or find the technology, a well designed match-up chart poll thing would be great. You just have to provide 1 link of proof that you attended a tournament, and you only get to pick 5 match ups or less to rate your opinion on: and it all gets factored in the community average.
 
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Ace55

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In Melee, Fox doesn't have a negative matchup. I'm just saying that a number of chars didn't lose that hard... (6-4 in fox's favor, I meant)
Ok, gotcha. And agreed.

Crouching against lasers doesn't help you when Falco uses them to approach with a dair.
On top of the things Ripple mentioned, even if you're slow with reacting Falco's dair is still gonna have a tough time breaking through crouch armor.
 
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The_NZA

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But Lording if the spacies are rebalanced anymore all the melee players will drop Fox and falco and not play their "non main" game PM that they dont even practice anyway, and that would be just so horrible for them to drop a game they dont even really care about...
This attitude is toxic and needs to stop. Any PM TO will tell you, the ease with which Melee players can play PM is a huge incentive for them to sink their time into the game when there is a chance. Many of those players eventually start playing PM characters and enjoying themselves. If we keep propogating this stupid attitude--that somehow, people playing melee characters in PM are the enemy--we significantly limit not only our current playerbase (which you don't value because they don't play new characters) but you also limit our potential playerbase (which might actually engage with the game in the way you want them to).
 

MagnesD3

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This attitude is toxic and needs to stop. Any PM TO will tell you, the ease with which Melee players can play PM is a huge incentive for them to sink their time into the game when there is a chance. Many of those players eventually start playing PM characters and enjoying themselves. If we keep propogating this stupid attitude--that somehow, people playing melee characters in PM are the enemy--we significantly limit not only our current playerbase (which you don't value because they don't play new characters) but you also limit our potential playerbase (which might actually engage with the game in the way you want them to).
All im saying is that if Melee characters get touched some-more balance wise the Melee players dont need to quit or whine. Everybodies characters are subject to change in this game, no exceptions.
 

The_NZA

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All im saying is that if Melee characters get touched some-more balance wise the Melee players dont need to quit or whine. Everybodies characters are subject to change in this game, no exceptions.
And all I was saying was--yes--it WOULD be horrible if a ton of the playerbase felt alienated and left. That's not imaginary, that's a real concern. Those people play the game too, and many of them go on to play PM seriously. So, while I advocate making characters fair, I don't think you should be so dismissive of the importance of retaining the interest of Melee players who keep a skeptical side eye but still play PM at tourneys.

It's the people who will never give the game a chance that can be ignored. Everyone else is still a potential player waiting to happen.
 

Fenrir VII

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Agreed with @ The_NZA The_NZA .

PM is exciting to a lot of us as a brand new game, but in the grand tourney scene, it's currently a side-event to Melee. That may change at some point... I really have no idea, but if you remove enough Melee players, the PM scene will be significantly hurt.

I think the important part is that the Melee characters feel like Melee... there are a number of ways to make small nerfs to characters without changing their overall gameplay or neutral game.

For Fox, as an example, take away a bit of kill power from usmash and uair, and the character is lessened without really affecting the way he feels to a Melee player.
Make him slower, or adjust the priority on Nair-shine or something, though, and a lot of Fox players will suddenly hate the character and stop playing him, or even PM altogether... To me, that would be sad.

There's a way to correctly balance the game without just screwing characters and souring the current players of that character. All that said, though, I don't agree with a Spacie nerf at this point. I think they have negative matchups regardless of their strong neutral games, and I think the metagame will even out with a bit more time.
 
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MysteryRevengerson

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I just wish people would adapt, build a knowledge bridge, and GET OVER IT

Like, I can't believe people can complain about Sheik when all they did was fix some stupid that she had going on while she is STILL PRETTY DAMN GOOD. I believe Project M will continue to grow bigger and bigger and while it already warrants solo/main events (And has several times already) I feel it create a staying power as time goes on, ESPECIALLY once the game is finished.

Once players (and this isn't just limited to Melee peeps) develop patience and willingness to understand things and grind out match-ups and learn to play their characters to the fullest (This takes a while!) THEN we can start ******** and moaning about things and calling for nerfs or buffs or what a tier list would look like.
 

KayB

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Plenty of people complained about Sheik because she wasn't Melee Sheik. Not necessarily in the way because it made Sheik worse, but more were mad because the throw change was drastic and people had to relearn and learn new techniques and set-ups. Not saying it was a bad change, I'd take mix-ups and the like over anything Melee d-throw presented, but people didn't necessarily hate how much worse she become as much as the fact that she just changed. Just thought I'd point that out.
 

Tlock

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Agreed with @ The_NZA The_NZA
For Fox, as an example, take away a bit of kill power from usmash and uair, and the character is lessened without really affecting the way he feels to a Melee player.
Nerf his up smash sure, but you can't nerf his up air without messing with what makes it so good. If up air kills 10% later, up throw up air kill combo would stop working on some of the cast. That 10% more damage required to get the kill would put the character out of follow up range from the throw. Besides, dieing up air is completely avoidable 100% of the time if you SDI out; unless your opponent is good enough to only hit with the second hit all the time. If that is the case just accept the person is better than you anyway.
 

JOE!

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unless your opponent is good enough to only hit with the second hit all the time. If that is the case just accept the person is better than you anyway.
Uhm, what?

Hows does that make him a better player with how he handles his character most advantageously, without mention of interaction with you?

If anything, that highlights a way Fox can "fix" a solution found to his Uair being SDI'd and thus kinda resetting the field with it, so to speak.
 
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Ripple

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Nerf his up smash sure, but you can't nerf his up air without messing with what makes it so good. If up air kills 10% later, up throw up air kill combo would stop working on some of the cast. That 10% more damage required to get the kill would put the character out of follow up range from the throw. Besides, dieing up air is completely avoidable 100% of the time if you SDI out; unless your opponent is good enough to only hit with the second hit all the time. If that is the case just accept the person is better than you anyway.
1st off. fox's up throw has such low growth that 10% is not going to matter ever. so no, it wouldn't put them out of range of dying.

2nd off. No, fox's up-throw up-air is not avoidable 100% of the time. fatter characters literally cannot move far enough away even with SDI.
 
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XXXX1000

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Heh, back to spacies. ~the cycle of life and death continues~

characters with some of the best offensive options should not also have some of the best defensive options. Simple design philosophy. I don't even think shines are truly the core problem with spacies, or at least if they are then they can be worked around. fox usmash still being one of the best in the game and falco's dair rewarding you whether you sweetspot it or not are completely stupid design choices, even more so than shine. From a design standpoint, those are the only things I'll complain about because they literally don't make sense on the kits of those characters (pikachu usmash also makes like no sense but pikachu's power level is not an issue so I won't get into it)

Honestly, with the reduction in laser damage and the amount of characters who have significantly better recoveries, I think Fox/Falco are close to being acceptable, and when more characters get developed (or possibly buffed) then they'll slowly get better at defeating spacies. Frankly y'all should be worrying more about Lucas, who seems to be able to compete with Fox/Falco but has had a fraction of the player base and development time that they got.
 

MLGF

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I swear, Lucas is top tier. I think at max potential, he should be able to get a kill off of a single PK freeze.
Can we give PK freeze a few more startup frames? Just so he doesn't have ridiculously easy combos, or we can punish it the Lucas player gets to spammy with it? It's insane as it is now.
 
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have to agree with the spacie nerf. maybe not falco as much as fox, fox is absurd. all the sheik players in melee dislike her in PM and they all stayed. i think it's fair to say that some rebalancing won't hurt here.
 

Hylian

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I swear, Lucas is top tier. I think at max potential, he should be able to get a kill off of a single PK freeze.
Can we give PK freeze a few more startup frames? Just so he doesn't have ridiculously easy combos, or we can punish it the Lucas player gets to spammy with it? It's insane as it is now.
You can beat freeze with almost every move in the game, and you can CC it on reaction and it's not great against shield. Learn options to beat good stuff, the melee community has been doing it for years.
 

MLGF

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Heh. My apologies, I've have not played Lucas' players (at least PK freeze happy ones) in a while, I just remember it being an extremely potent tool and I suppose I haven't played against them in recent enough times to reevaluate the matchup.

I guess I should have done more research before I made my claim, I apologize.
 

Paradoxium

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I swear, Mario is top tier. I think at max potential, he should be able to get a kill off of a single fireball.
Can we give fireballs a few more startup frames? Just so he doesn't have ridiculously easy combos, or we can punish it the Mario player gets to spammy with it? It's insane as it is now.
It sounds like your describing Mario and fireballs
 
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Terotrous

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Id hope they wouldnt quit but you saw how much an uproar there was about taking the invincibility away from shine, they cant stand change..
Admittedly this was before I joined, but there's still loads of Melee players playing Spacies in P:M, so even if they were initially upset (really, everyone has an initially negative reaction to any nerf to a character they use) it didn't make them quit the game.

I also agree with XXXX1000 that I think Fox UpSmash and Falco Dair are the core of the problem. Those two moves are just inordinately good compared to the rest of the cast, and on characters who are already super strong.
 

Soft Serve

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I was about to say that SDIing out of fox's up-throw uair was really easy and once you react/become aware of when they are going for it its not hard to time. But then I realize I play a little baby monkey and its stupid easy. I feel bad for charizard players, they have to deal with that stupid ass tail.
 

DrinkingFood

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Increasing the SDI multiplier for Fox's uair would make it easier for fatties to SDI out
although it would make the combo a lot harder on small characters
but I'm sure they don't mind
 

JOE!

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I was about to say that SDIing out of fox's up-throw uair was really easy and once you react/become aware of when they are going for it its not hard to time. But then I realize I play a little baby monkey and its stupid easy. I feel bad for charizard players, they have to deal with that stupid *** tail.
Its not the tail



its those big, floating wing hurtboxes
 

SunJester

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As much as its atypical of the PMBR, I wouldn't mind having a community vote on the Spacies. Perhaps people could put in a well thought-out argument for each side and the community could have a vote on it.

Though I'd honestly wait until the remaining five characters are added into the game, and for the metagame to develop a bit more. I don't think we have to worry about a bunch of people quitting the game, P:M is fairly well established. But, If the average player does or doesn't want nerfs, I think its fair to say we could all roll with that.


Plus the two worst things about the spacies have already been addressed. The shine invincibility was stupid, and the laser camping has been addressed as well.
 

Soft Serve

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The main issue I have with some nerfs on spacies is that they start to emphasize certain playstyles over others. I know that on top of the laser nerf, If up-throw>uair or raw up-smashes got nerfed my entire fox game would be obsolete as I play fox by lasering and dash-dancing until I get a grab or can up-smash them through their pattern. Spacies are flexable characters and I feel that just straight nerfing one side of their possible playstyles won't turn out well. You'd get a lot more complaints and people not playing spacies in PM if you removed the viability of the non-rushdown spacie players, expecially because most successful fox's in melee aren't the super aggro ones. Falco can get away with blind aggression but fox can't if he doesn't want to just get anti-aired or baited and lose a stock.

I don't have a solution to avoid said problem tbh, but I think it should be something to be taken into consideration. People will get more mad if their entire playstyle doesn't work anymore than if their character got small nerfs spread around.
 

Blade-Fox

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As much as its atypical of the PMBR, I wouldn't mind having a community vote on the Spacies. Perhaps people could put in a well thought-out argument for each side and the community could have a vote on it.

Though I'd honestly wait until the remaining five characters are added into the game, and for the metagame to develop a bit more. I don't think we have to worry about a bunch of people quitting the game, P:M is fairly well established. But, If the average player does or doesn't want nerfs, I think its fair to say we could all roll with that.


Plus the two worst things about the spacies have already been addressed. The shine invincibility was stupid, and the laser camping has been addressed as well.
There was already a big debate about spacies that ended up going in circles and getting locked. The only way they'll be receiving changes now is probably once the meta game develops more.

Personally, I don't believe the spacies have received any actual nerfs yet. At least not Fox. The shine is still awesome and its uses really haven't changed from the invincibility being taken away and laser camping is still very much a thing.

Besides, the shine invincibility and laser camping are hardly the worst things Fox has to do to people.
 

Ripple

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I know that on top of the laser nerf, If up-throw>uair or raw up-smashes got nerfed my entire fox game would be obsolete as I play fox by lasering and dash-dancing until I get a grab or can up-smash them through their pattern.
Fox, arguably one of the best characters in the game, should not be able to win tournaments using only lasers, up-throw up-air, and up-smash. which is how a MAJORITY of how all fox's play
 

Time2Play

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Honestly, I thought Fox and maybe Falco should get nerfed too. But then I realized that they are not only the best in Melee, but also the most developed ones. PM actually changed alot. And it takes more than a few months or a year, to fully understand a new/heavy changed character. So before we start nerfing any characters we should give the game some time to develop. You saw what Armada can do with Pit and he isn't even considered to be Top Tier by most people. So why shouldn't people like M2K be successful with Fox. That doesn't mean that Fox is too strong, it just shows that M2K is a Top Player and Fox is fully capable of placing high in tourneys.

Short Form: Let the game develop and don't nerf just for the sake of nerfing.
 

SunJester

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Laser camping is definitely still a thing, but its less of an issue since it does about 1/3 of the damage. I frequently will see 1/2%'s being tacked on from far enough away. While it doesn't eliminate the problem, it at least down-grades it. The shine nerf means you can shine out of combos anymore (which is absolutely absurd).

Also for the debate (this is my bad, I didn't specify), I would prefer if seasoned, knowledgeable players made the arguments for either side, and the community had a definitive vote on it. Right now its kinda this ugly thing hanging over PM's head that needs to be addressed at some point.

Even if the spacies get nerfed or not, I don't think its going to effect the metagame all that much. It might just mean that a few spacie mains might not play their character in P:M. I think the game is established enough at this point that Melee players recognize it as a good game (even if they don't like it as much as Melee), and still play it.
 

Burnsy

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People also need to remember that Falco got a pretty big unintentional buff to his reflector with being able to jump out of reflector lag instantly. His reflector in P:M is the only one out of all absorbing/reflecting moves that can normally skip this lag.
 
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