Tier List Speculation

[DMG]

Not just that, but frame data is severely lacking on many characters. I dunno why we're so behind, minus Brawlbox being bad?

 

[SixSaw]

Results may vary, effectiveness of "The Finger" depends on victim's ability to hold down on the control stick.

fix'd

 

[\Apples]

Trade Utilt for Dtilt, and you describe 80% of Wario players before 3.0

I pretty much never used the finger unless my opponent was airborne, even back in 2.1. Everyone knew to CC it.

Reflex, Idk what you're talking about nobody ever runs into Utilt. >_> In a world with hedgehogs, foxes, wolves and chimps, it is perhaps Wario's poorest option in the neutral game. Where I'm from, Utilting gets you killed.

In the case of Yoshi, I have NO FREAKING IDEA. I haven't even seen a good Yoshi. I've watched all the supposedly good Yoshis, and honestly, I am less than impressed

#FreeToby's Yoshi is good, but there isn't really any footage of it 'cause he's pretty much 100% Charizard in tournament. I've seen some crazy good stuff Yoshi can do, but he's just pretty unrefined at this point. Wait a good 6 months until people start really figuring out some of these "low tier" characters and I'm sure you'll see they're no slouches. Yoshi, Squirtle, Sonic... Sonic is super duper good, but naysayers bury him on the boards, same with Squirtle. Both characters are phenomenal and truly annoying to fight against when their tools are not only understood but felt.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

I disagree with what people have stated about a MU chart.

EVERY character thread should work on a MU list of their characters. I know the PMBR actually wants us to do such a thing and not talk about arbitrary views or opinions.

Do you know if there is a lucario thread? I can't seem to find a lot of character threads where one would talk about MU's, but I would be specifically interested in lucario if you knew of one.

 

[jtm94]

Do you know if there is a lucario thread? I can't seem to find a lot of character threads where one would talk about MU's, but I would be specifically interested in lucario if you knew of one.

The problem is that a lot of people discuss their character's MUs, but they're in just the general discussion threads. As of now there is not a dedicated thread for Lucario MU discussion. I say you just make one if you are interested.

I haven't delved too deep with Lucario, but as a lot of chars he lacks some approaches and I would say he loses to disjoints in general, but he can punish shielding/crouch cancelling pretty well with the on-hit-cancel system.

 

[Deleted member]

1 the game isn't finished
2 the finer nuances to the characters themselves are poorly understood

general discussion threads are probably fine for now

 

[jtm94]

1 the game isn't finished
2 the finer nuances to the characters themselves are poorly understood

general discussion threads are probably fine for now

Then we shall see how the game progresses with time and how matchups alter with knowledge and new technology.

 

[Burnsy]

nah, it could be nice on everyone.

yes, even Squirtle or olimar.

If Squirtle had Fox's usmash it would be whined about instantly and removed in the next patch. You don't give a character like Squirtle a move like that.

Besides, I dont know how someone could say Squirts needs a better usmash. His is pretty damn capable lol.

 

[Deleted member]

Then we shall see how the game progresses with time and how matchups alter with knowledge and new technology.

you'd be wise to develop that stuff for yourself. it gives huge margin when the game is new. research is broken lol

 

[Burnsy]

"Research is broken"

Understatement of the day

 

[Nguz95]

Squirtle's usmash is awesome. It's so much cooler than fox's anyway.

 

[SpiderMad]

Isn't Fox.

With the fireball increase he feels like a Falco Kirby

Besides, I dont know how someone could say Squirts needs a better usmash. His is pretty damn capable lol.

Didn't it get nerfed in some past version? How does it compare to Lucas'?

 

[Player -0]

It hits below the stage I'm pretty sure, and it goes super high, and hits both sides. You can also Hydroplane it or SS it. Squirtle seems good, everyone seems good except Jiggz. It also kills like.... 110-130? Not sure the exact percents, I'm probably off.

 

[DMG]

Usmash can kill early if you land the strong part of it. It's fairly weak near the end of the blast, but on the ground if you catch someone they get boned hard

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

Ali Baba, you should really stop pushing that. It won't be long before the ignorant start pushing it as fact, and not long after that until it starts to affect character choice and meta development. The best answer to the question "Is there a tier list?" is not "Here's a subpar inaccurate one made mostly from people's kneejerk opinions!" but rather "No, there isn't, pick anyone." Because 90% of the time, people want to know so they have an answer to why they are losing or who they should pick, when the real answer to both should be for the solution to the problem to be up to them rather a half-baked tier list.

I think it is interesting to see what ideas people bring to the table and summarize them in one opinion-based/result-based tier list. I think it is interesting to see the progression evolution of data tier lists as time goes on. Also, assuming that there is no bias and a large sample size, a community made tier list would show an accurate tier list. AND BEFORE YOU QUOTE ME ON THE NO BIAS THING, tier lists are going to be biased because tier lists are mostly based off of peoples opinions. But that bias (such as everyone thinking that Olimar sucks etc) shows the peoples thoughts during that time period and thus accurately reflects the communities thoughts on the tier list at that time.

 

[Burnsy]

It's also fast. Sort of. On frame 6 his head pops people up (similar to his utilt) and on frame 11 the water hotboxes come out.

It's true to kill with it you can't tipper it but the range of sweetspot hitboxes that do kill on it are pretty good. They extend to maybe a little more than half of the columns' height.

 

[guedes the brawler]

If Squirtle had Fox's usmash it would be whined about instantly and removed in the next patch. You don't give a character like Squirtle a move like that.

Besides, I dont know how someone could say Squirts needs a better usmash. His is pretty damn capable lol.

Imagine Squirtle's tiny leg becoming something able to match fox's up smash in range

it would be hilarious.

 

[Terotrous]

I disagree with what people have stated about a MU chart.

All you need is moderate experience with a character and you can make at least an educated observance on how a character feels versus another.

Well no, you need one other important thing - to have played someone who is good with that character. Even for people who go to tournaments, some areas just don't have a lot (or even any) players for some members of the cast. Unless you've actually fought the matchup, you just have to theory fighter based on match videos you've seen of the character and that's not really accurate.


It would be way easier if this game had competent online and you would just encounter everyone on random wifi.

 

[Vashimus]

In the case of Yoshi, I have NO FREAKING IDEA. I haven't even seen a good Yoshi. I've watched all the supposedly good Yoshis, and honestly, I am less than impressed

If Vectorman still played this game...

 

[Nguz95]

Why did he quit? Is the parrying thing still bothering him?

 

[Ripple]

the thing that made Vman good at yoshi was his ability to use yoshi's shield correctly in melee.

now that it no longer applies, he's merely ok

 

[DMG]

There were also some other differences that he had trouble getting used to iirc. Egg toss angles, some stuff involving the edge, etc. He had a post elaborating that switching between PM Yoshi and Melee Yoshi was a lot to get used to, shield aside

 

[Vashimus]

He said having success in Melee has always been his goal, and that Melee just naturally takes priority over Project M for him. It's why he never jumps out of sheild playing PM Yoshi; Melee Yoshi can't, so don't get used to it. Maybe when he retires from Melee and PM fix some of Yoshi's stuff, he'll transition to PM fully, but who knows.

 

[WINK ;)]

I dunno, it just seems like these players are really good, not Wario himself... I mean in no way do I feel like Wario is low tier, but maybe its just that he has a high learning curve.... I mean I'm no pro but I'm not a scrub... I don't know. Maybe Wario just isn't for me. I love his move set and what not but maybe its just the high learning curve.

I love the mix up you can do with side b/grab. Badass.

 

[Kaeldiar]

I disagree with what people have stated about a MU chart.

All you need is moderate experience with a character and you can make at least an educated observance on how a character feels versus another.

There is bound to be more disagreement on a tier list than MU chart, a chart can actually be backed by evidence, a tier list without a MU chart is only backed by arbitrary opinion.

EVERY character thread should work on a MU list of their characters. I know the PMBR actually wants us to do such a thing and not talk about arbitrary views or opinions.

Bolded part is why I want to do a MU chart. A definitive MU chart will easily translate into a tier list.

Italicized part is probably the only way the former can be adequately handled. We get the experts on each character to come up with their own MU charts. Disagreements can be handled through some solid debate. When the Link players say they have it 60-40 against Olimar, but the Olimar players say it's actually 60-40 in THEIR favor, we look at Apex 2015 where M2K has become a Link main and HBox is establishing dominance as the best Olimar player this side of the equator, and see that HBox beat M2K 3-0 by spamming bair and decide that Olimar really does have something on Link.

Cliffnotes: every character thread should come up with a MU chart, and someone should compile them into a master chart, from which a tier list can be drawn.

If Vectorman still played this game...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD_1NpsRJt4
So a good P:M Yoshi does exist Even so, I can't help but feel that this God of Yoshis is an anomaly. He is almost M2K-esque in his movement, but he still doesn't completely overwhelm the opponent. I try to imagine that Yoshi up against Armada's Pit or M2K's Mewtwo or even Rolex's Snake, and I don't see it going well for Yoshi.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD_1NpsRJt4
So a good P:M Yoshi does exist Even so, I can't help but feel that this God of Yoshis is an anomaly. He is almost M2K-esque in his movement, but he still doesn't completely overwhelm the opponent. I try to imagine that Yoshi up against Armada's Pit or M2K's Mewtwo or even Rolex's Snake, and I don't see it going well for Yoshi.

That is an old video. Of Vectorman. Literally playing P:M for the first time.

 

[Kaeldiar]

That is an old video. Of Vectorman. Literally playing P:M for the first time.

It's only from December. P:M had been out for a while before that. Also, Yoshi remained largely unchanged in play style from Melee to P:M. He can jump out of shield, but almost everything else is just general buffs. "This attack comes out faster, that attack has a little more knock back, etc."

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

The point being that Vectorman doesn't play the game anymore. You're posting a video from before Apex, before he said he would be focusing on Melee, not P:M.

Also, that was him playing P:M for the first time, irrespective of how long the game was out before that. If you think he's good based on his first outing in the game, that says a lot.

Regardless, there really isn't a player at the forefront of Yoshi yet. It ain't Vectorman.

 

[XXXX1000]

It's only from December. P:M had been out for a while before that. Also, Yoshi remained largely unchanged in play style from Melee to P:M. He can jump out of shield, but almost everything else is just general buffs. "This attack comes out faster, that attack has a little more knock back, etc."

this whole post honestly sounds like you know that you don't have an argument but you're trying to stand your ground anyway. Yoshi as a character in PM is only 4 months old, and you're citing a 4-month old friendly of a guy that has openly said he doesn't play PM as proof that Yoshi is a bad character. The fact that you're trying to summarize his changes from Melee to PM in one or two sentences shows that you really aren't qualified to make that call.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Does anyone here think that spacies have bad matchups now? I mean, even with all the buffs that characters got, I still don't feel like Fox, Falco, and even Wolf are at a disadvantage. Of course, it's only been 4 months since the latest version...

 

[SpiderMad]

Wolf and Falco have bad MUs, and I believe Mario can own everyone.

 

[The_NZA]

Does anyone here think that spacies have bad matchups now? I mean, even with all the buffs that characters got, I still don't feel like Fox, Falco, and even Wolf are at a disadvantage. Of course, it's only been 4 months since the latest version...

M2k believes Mewtwo is a spacie slayer. We already know he can't be pillared.

 

[Oro?!]

Kels shares a similar idea. We go pretty even Fox vs Mewtwo, but I definitely feel I have to work a lot harder.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I don't know about bad matchups, but I definitely think the Spacies have negative matchups now...

Fox/Falco had a number of 5-5's to 6-4's in Melee, and it seems like for the most part, most of the other characters have been significantly buffed, which makes those matchups even or negative.

I personally think that as the metagames develop, one or more of the spacies could have serious issues with quite a few characters.. The game is still fairly new, though, and Fox/Falco have by far the most work done on their metagame thus far.

 

[didds]

I think a major problem with Yoshi and Squirtle really comes down to representation. I'm a mid level player who has had success with both character, but until we have an armada or something, there is no one to lend credibility. Of course my yoshi would get wrecked by one of the kings of smash, but doing well at my local scene against certain "known to be good" characters at least hints at the fact that maybe the characters are capable. Granted, matchups are crazy in this game and my scene lacks squirtles and yoshis, so that could be it. My main point is that watching a couple subpar performances of a character can be decieving. From what I've seen, I'd argue that lucas is not that great, which clearly is not the case, I just want to show that actually maining a character and learning their ins and outs gives a certain insight that is invisible to an outside observer. And just to prove I am super credible... Yoshi for upper-middle-lower-s-tier

 

[Terotrous]

I don't know about bad matchups, but I definitely think the Spacies have negative matchups now...

Fox/Falco had a number of 5-5's to 6-4's in Melee, and it seems like for the most part, most of the other characters have been significantly buffed, which makes those matchups even or negative.

I personally think that as the metagames develop, one or more of the spacies could have serious issues with quite a few characters.. The game is still fairly new, though, and Fox/Falco have by far the most work done on their metagame thus far.

The spacies have such stellar offense that I question whether or not it's possible for them to go less than even with anyone. Sure, you can ostensibly get an early gimp on them on occasion, but they deal damage so fast and kill so early that they'll easily make it back up if they so much as touch you. You also really can't keep them out regardless of how good your disjoints are because they're just so fast and mobile.


I've seen pretty much no matches ever where a top space animal player just really gets bodied (unless it's by another space animal). At worst, it goes down to the last stock and they just get slightly outplayed. Armada came the closest to making it look like the space animals have counters, but even then I think that was probably just Armada being godlike + matchup unfamiliarity with Pit.

 

[Strong Badam]

Isn't Fox.

I'd say several characters suffer heavily from not being Fox in this game.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I've seen pretty much no matches ever where a top space animal player just really gets bodied (unless it's by another space animal). At worst, it goes down to the last stock and they just get slightly outplayed. Armada came the closest to making it look like the space animals have counters, but even then I think that was probably just Armada being godlike + matchup unfamiliarity with Pit.

Well, DEHF v/s M2K.

But even if Mewtwo is Foxdie, well ... idk anymore really. Doesn't really seem like the spacies are going to be changed much.

 

[Strong Badam]

fox pit is like 80-20 fox
armada is a cheater

 

[SixSaw]

I've seen pretty much no matches ever where a top space animal player just really gets bodied

I'd say just about any match with M2K's Mewtwo vs a spacie player fits this description.