Tier List Speculation

[Terotrous]

fox pit is like 80-20 fox
armada is a cheater

I suspect it's probably 50-50 or 60-40 Pit. I wouldn't go any more than that though.

I'd say just about any match with M2K's Mewtwo vs a spacie player fits this description.

Well it has to be a top spacie player. Do you know of any prominent sets where he did Mewtwo vs a space animal?

I found this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLf9wLIj29A

This is pretty dominant, though it's vs Wolf, and court is still out on whether or not he's as dominant as Fox and Falco.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I suspect it's probably 50-50 or 60-40 Pit. I wouldn't go any more than that though.



Well it has to be a top spacie player. Do you know of any prominent sets where he did Mewtwo vs a space animal?

I found this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLf9wLIj29A

This is pretty dominant, though it's vs Wolf, and court is still out on whether or not he's as dominant as Fox and Falco.

Dude.

Mew2King. Versus. DEHF. Apex 2014. Loser's Finals.

This isn't even obscure.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd say several characters suffer heavily from not being Fox in this game.

I don't actually have anything to add to this, I just wanted the text to appear more times in the thread so people get it.

 

[KayB]

Feel free to dismiss this since this is just theory crafting, but I believe Luigi has the potential to have a 50-50 match up with either Fox or Falco and I might go as far as say 60-40 in Luigi's favor.

 

[Strong Badam]

I suspect it's probably 50-50 or 60-40 Pit. I wouldn't go any more than that though.

no, pit definitely loses the MU. he's a floaty and loses neutral. what he does when he catches Fox isn't of particular concern when Fox isn't caught often at all when the opponent understands the nuances of Pit's game, which no Fox does at the moment.

 

[deadjames]

Feel free to dismiss this since this is just theory crafting, but I believe Luigi has the potential to have a 50-50 match up with either Fox or Falco and I might go as far as say 60-40 in Luigi's favor.

I'd say 60-40 Fox and either 70-30, or 60-40 Falco depending on the stage (Luigi has a much easier time dealing with lasers when he has platforms to work with). If Luigi actually had a good recovery I could see it being even or slightly in his favor.

 

[Ace55]

Fox/Falco had a number of 5-5's to 6-4's in Melee,

With Falco I can possibly see Puff and Fox as slightly losing matchups but who the hell does Fox lose to (in melee)?

 

[lordvaati]

Real talk, does anyone have an aggregate idea of when an official Matchup chart might be made?

 

[Ali Baba 177]

If I were to create a survey for all MU's for one character and post like 1-3 a day or something on this thread and the characters main discussion thread, would that be of interest to you people? Like a chart or something where you rate MU's advantageous neutral or disadvantageous for that character against the other 40 characters. And just do that like 40 times or something..

 

[Deleted member]

no, pit definitely loses the MU. he's a floaty and loses neutral. what he does when he catches Fox isn't of particular concern when Fox isn't caught often at all when the opponent understands the nuances of Pit's game, which no Fox does at the moment.

pretty much this. on another note, pit's punishment game is more straightforward and intuitive than a lot of the cast has it, so i think other characters are going to catch up when they're understood better. i still think pit is top tier, but he's no fox lol. fox (rightfully) has a target on his head as of 3.02.

 

[Nguz95]

Son, Sonic does better vs Fox than Mewtwo. It's not even or anything, but Sonic probably has the highest potential vs spacies out of the entire cast. Maybe it's just me, but that's how I see it.

 

[Plum]

Real talk, does anyone have an aggregate idea of when an official Matchup chart might be made?

It's highly unlikely that there will ever be an "official" one.
Official implies it's being made with some sort of authority, but the PMBR's purpose isn't to do things like tier lists and matchup charts like you would have seen from the BBR and MBR in the past.

 

[MagnesD3]

With Falco I can possibly see Puff and Fox as slightly losing matchups but who the hell does Fox lose to?

Probably to nobody, Fox must be the best it is written in the law of melee. But seriously I think Metaknight, and Mewtwo are the only ones who potentially beat both spacies imo right now.

 

[Ace55]

Probably to nobody, Fox must be the best it is written in the law of melee. But seriously I think Metaknight, and Mewtwo are the only ones who potentially beat both spacies imo right now.

I was referring to melee.

And people need to stop grouping spacies together. Obviously they share similar movesets/physics but if a char has a ****ty matchup vs Fox he could still have a very decent matchup vs Falco (Bowser for instance). Falco is fine imo.

 

[Fenrir VII]

With Falco I can possibly see Puff and Fox as slightly losing matchups but who the hell does Fox lose to (in melee)?

In Melee, Fox doesn't have a negative matchup. I'm just saying that a number of chars didn't lose that hard... (6-4 in fox's favor, I meant)

 

[deadjames]

Why do you think Bowser has a decent MU against Falco? I definitely don't see it.

 

[Ripple]

crouching against lasers

 

[deadjames]

Crouching against lasers doesn't help you when Falco uses them to approach with a dair.

 

[Ripple]

you can quite easily react to a falco approaching with a laser or approaching with not lasers

aso soon as falco even comes near you without a laser, you can up-b. or hell use d-smash with all that heavy armor

 

[deadjames]

I still don't see it, from my experience Falco is only slightly easier than Fox, but they both body Bowser.

 

[Ripple]

then you don't understand falco's neutral game means significantly less against bowser

 

[deadjames]

He still beats Bowser in neutral though, as does pretty much everyone.

 

[Ripple]

like I said, Falco's neutral game means significantly less than normal.

it's not bowser's gets better or has a good one

 

[lordvaati]

With Falco I can possibly see Puff and Fox as slightly losing matchups but who the hell does Fox lose to (in melee)?

Fox has no true bad matches in Melee( for awhile people thought it was Falco though), but at the same time isn't overly dominant like Chu in 64 or MK in Brawl. He's even with some characters ( even mid tiers), has mostly only 6-4 matchups against the rest, and is a victim of a ton of chain grabs....even from himself.

 

[Oracle]

Imo best newcomer characters vs spacies are like rob zard (only vs fox) and like d3 lol. They all still lose but the ability to be in the air and remain dangerous, as well as the difference in punishment games gives them a fighting chance

 

[Ali Baba 177]

If you can/want to then this is a link to voting on MUs for fox and falco, im gonna post two characters a day.
Fox - https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/KV8G3LD
Falco - https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/KVX6WV6

 

[Strong Badam]

Imo best newcomer characters vs spacies are like rob zard (only vs fox) and like d3 lol. They all still lose but the ability to be in the air and remain dangerous, as well as the difference in punishment games gives them a fighting chance

nah dude wario is broken just ask mew2king about his MOVING FORWARD SMASH

 

[deadjames]

Olimar is on there twice.

 

[Vashimus]

And you forgot Squirtle.

We've already shown that matchup charts voted by the community are things nobody agrees on in the end. I don't main Fox or Falco, so I shouldn't really have a say in their matchups besides Samus and like, Peach.

Really Ali-Baba, that matchup chart is going to end up another this:

Spoiler

 

[Strong Badam]

dk 3rd worst char ever

 

[Paradoxium]

"Pikachu is even with Fox."

Although i believe his upthrow chaingrab doesn't work anymore sadly

 

[MLGF]

Dat 2.5 matchup chart.
Both 2.6 and 3.0 changed things up too much for me to consider it still valid at all.
Plenty of tools have changed (EG: Ike's Nair has become good to amazing from 2.5 -> 2.6) and I can't consider that chart at all useful.

 

[Vashimus]

You shouldn't have considered it useful the moment you saw Ganon loses to Fox 90:10.

 

[MLGF]

You shouldn't have considered it useful the moment you saw Ganon loses to Fox 90:10.

I must admit, the idea of a Melee to Project M matchup somehow getting worse should have boggled my mind.
But I was too focused on Falco's bad matchup against Bowser to notice.

 

[JOE!]

We should get the character boards to get goin on matchup threads, then see the results vs each other.

 

[Empyrean]

That thing hurts my eyes. Both the chart and the Ganon part.

 

[MagnesD3]

The metagame development feels too slow, PM needs more tournies and players, this thread has gone kinda cold..

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I think the dudes Oracle mentioned benefit a lot from being able to more easily escape Up throw -> Up air. But their floatiness still hurts them because when it connects, it kills and it will connect sooner or later.

I honestly think it wouldn't be awful is a character had mostly even match-ups across the board. I feel like that's the sort of characters the spacies are intented to be - but they're not. Fox at the very least is above average in all respects - offensive options, OoS options, shield pressure, camping, kill power, combo power, and even recovery. No, his recovery is good, and being made of combonium hardly hurts when he has the tools to not get hit more often than he gets hit.

I don't know, I feel like this game can live with him and Falco being as they are, but they will skew viability charts a whole lot.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

And you forgot Squirtle.

We've already shown that matchup charts voted by the community are things nobody agrees on in the end. I don't main Fox or Falco, so I shouldn't really have a say in their matchups besides Samus and like, Peach.

Really Ali-Baba, that matchup chart is going to end up another this:

Spoiler

But that is what I feel like people are saying they want for pm. Ive heard that itd be 'more useful' than a tier list and less debatable and therefor better. I agree that it is hard to read and kinda annoying. But its kinda fun to make lol and pretty interesting nonetheless

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

If you can/want to then this is a link to voting on MUs for fox and falco, im gonna post two characters a day.
Fox - https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/KV8G3LD
Falco - https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/KVX6WV6

Dude.

Listen.

Any information you get from that is going to be useless if it's open to the public. Community consensus means jack **** this early, especially when John McSalt's vote has the same weight as a PMBR member's. You should stop this unless you really, really want to collect and propagate misinformation. Let the game breathe. Talk about it, try to get a handle on it but don't codify anything or it will more than likely impact community perception, which is i.m.o the worst that can happen. It's how you get 2.6 Ivy.