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^this. I ran into nazo first round at the last 2 AZ bi-weeklies, and I always have like a 30 min friendlies set before/after with him normally. Sonic is like a love child between falcon and Jiggs. He is incredibly fast and thus has a fantastic bait/punish neutral game that is amazing if the opponent doesn't have a projectile. While he lacks the easy, powerful combos that falcon has he has the ability to get in and out a ton and be like a gnat. He reminds me of Puff because he doesn't really have too many safe options to approach or control the neutral game, sonic "smothers" your options out in a similar way that puffs do by using his speed to get around and then in to punish different options, until it gets to the point where it feels none of the options would work because sonic does have an answer to each of them. I think what sonic starts to fail to is projectiles and good hitboxes, but not when they are just thrown out as he punishes everything from full screen. He has difficulties with well placed and timed moves that just straight beat his aerials, so if an opponent is doing a good job respecting sonic's abilities and not just throwing things out and instead starts pressuring space with possible hitboxes, sonic has more trouble. Sonic does an incredible job when he is controlling space and dominates stages with mobility, but he doesn't actually have a lot of means to hold space against other speedy characters.
Characters like that are the ones who give me issue as well. Like Lucario.
My personal thoughts: I'd switch Diddy and Wolf, then switch Meta to equal to Snake, and Wolf to where Meta was (I think I made that more complicated than it had to be), but that could be just me having a Diddy bias. Next, rather than the Links, I'd put Mewtwo and Ike in that slot, moving the Links down to the 9th or 10th column. I'd switch DK and Ganon, and switch Yoshi and DDD. Finally, I'd move Zelda past Ness and Boozer.^
edit:
I'm still not one for a tier list at this point, but me and a friend went about with making one of the nice looking ven-diagram ones because they are sexy and it needed to be done. we went about a few iterations, and took into consideration some opinions from a few other people here in AZ. Its not like definitive to be the opinion of us our the region, but everyone that had input was generally content with the placement of most characters. Tell if you guys feel its agreeable, there probably will be a few outlying characters (I put olimar way to high for the tastes of this thread, for starters, but I think he is a simple, but great, character. I also think fox is a bit to high but If I dropped him I'd have to drop other characters because I honestly weighed the fox/falco matchup as being worth more in the hypothetical matchup charts we made. I don't agree 100% with the placement of snake and ganon, and I half want to swap ROB and Yoshi's spots.).
treat characters in the same column to be at a relative level of goodlyness. characters that are by themselves were thought to be different enough to be breaking points in classification.
Any extreme in character design is bound to frustrate people to play vs. Sonic's mobility is exceptionally high and I can see that being a nuisance to play vs and Zelda has her quirks to nullify interaction with her that annoy people.
I posted this earlier, it is a compilation of ~60% survey community tier list making, and ~40% tournament results put into a numbering system. There are obviously gonna be things wrong with it and gonna change as the game is young and any major tournament where a new character'comes to light' will change opinions and tournament results. But it should give you a good general sense.
And here is just the survey results in the spectrum form
I took Canon's numbers and broke up the list into some Tiers based just on the numbers and their differences. Check it out.
A Tier (5+)
Fox 5.81481481481482
B Tier (4 - 4.9)
C Tier (3 - 3.9)
Luigi Tier (3.1 - 3.11111111111111)
D Tier (2 - 2.9)
King Dedede 2.77777777777778
I took all the numbers and subtracted each one from the one above it to see which places had the biggest gaps. A drop of 0.37 from A Tier to B Tier means that the difference between Falco's number and Meta Knight's number is 0.37 (which is actually the biggest drop on the list -- Spacies be top tier yo). Then I just took the 5 biggest drops and separated the Tiers that way.
A Tier
B Tier - Drop of 0.37
C Tier - Drop of 0.22
D Tier - Drop of 0.33
D Tier - Drop of 0.3
E Tier - Drop of 0.31
Apples is also an exceptionally adept Wario.
In the case of Yoshi, I have NO FREAKING IDEA. I haven't even seen a good Yoshi. I've watched all the supposedly good Yoshis, and honestly, I am less than impressed
I stole a lot of things from Reflex early on (I did not ever use Footstools until I started using Wario and talking strategy with Luis) but I pretty much invented like 70-80% of my playstyle with Wario. The other Warios are no slouches and you should definitely look out for them. Now that Wario is a lot deeper than spamming shoulder charge crouches, I feel Wario has challenged his playerbase to improve in ways that will make bigger differences when it comes to tournament sets, and we're seeing several that are rising to the occasion.
Isn't Fox.@DMG What are Mario's flaws again?
The only character who could wield Fox's Upsmash better than Fox would be Mario. That's a scary thought.
Ya you are probably right in some aspects, so I will just stick with updating it with new results and more surveys every month or so. But the reason I try to post it is because I think its not a half baked tier list, most other tier lists on her are personal opinions, which is fine and what is supposed to be posted, however I tried to make a non-halfbaked tier list by combining peoples opinions and some tourny results. Yes, there will be some shenanigans in voting and some people not very experienced participating, however it will not skew the results that much. And I did try to warn in my post that it was not a 'official' tier list and that it should just give an idea as this game is pretty young and malleable. I do agree though that posting it a lot shouldn't happen so I will just keep trying to make a better tier list every month and hopefully it will become somewhat accepted sometime.
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SpiderMad
why u gotta bat-signal a man like me?I'm very close to on board with this one, there's just a couple things that stand out to me.
