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Tier List Speculation

grandpappy

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What's your reasoning?
He's faster and has way better movement. I'm not a great T. Link, but I think that once people get proficient with their movement with the little guy, he'll be seen as a threat. If you look at Aero play, he does some crazy stuff. The way I see it, Link is pretty one dimensional while T. Link is much more flexible with his options.
 

jtm94

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Ivy crushes Captain Falcon and I've seen Ivy beat Sheiks as well.

She has the tools to handle pretty much any MU.

Link could be top tier for sure, I'll ride the M2k express hype train.
 

Nausicaa

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I'm pretty sure there are about 30 characters who could easily contend for a top 5 spot... at least I'd argue for almost all of them having the chance (save very few who it's just not going to happen)
Only time will tell!
FOR SCURBZ


I only consider Jiggs as 'not quite fit' in this game, and it's been steadily this way for the 2 months of 3.0 now, only seemingly becoming a more common speculation from others if anything too.
Everyone else is completely fine and awesome. The stage and roster diversity and dynamics in everything from neutral to the punish game are killing Jiggs though. Still good, just not where she 'should' be by the general standards of the game, it seems, at least... Just my thoughts on how I just can't see her working out.


The Tiers matter so little anyway, especially in this game, but this is fun and effective for self-contemplating what I could do with each character against each other, and therefore possibly find what I could be missing as well as what I've caught on to that could be developed more in myself or others. I'd feel confident in any large-scale tournament if I was stuck with almost anyone but a few in the last few rows (I don't think I'd place well going all DK (if I made it a few rounds, I'd catch on though), Olimar (don't think I could without simply a bit of time for myself to work with the nuances I'm no longer/not yet fluent with, and wouldn't be able to develop that fluency in the tournament sets alone, even when knowing the application thoroughly, refreshing on-the-fly nuances could be too much), Char (same as DK), Samus (same as Olimar), Ganon (I'd have too much fun/same as DK/Char), IC (same as Samus/Olimar), or Jiggs (If it was my Jiggs vs my 'any-other-character' I'd feel more confident in the 'me' playing the other character), and that's all mainly because I'm simply out of practice and the nuances of their games aren't fresh for me.

This doesn't mean I'm bias against them and placing them 'lower' or something. I simply haven't touched them recently, and don't trust their domination of the game in a universal sense to be functional with fundamentals and simple carry-over Smash-skills to work on their own without some refreshments. Too 'quirky' to just pick-up and play at a level that can be considered optimal to others, even when I've worked these nuances out before, I'd need a weekend/day to re-fresh before entering a serious event. Unlike others I haven't touched in a while (Ness/Squirt/Marth/TL/ROB/Ike/Lucario/etc) who really any great Smash player could just pick up and do well with if they have any past experience with the character or not.
Good testament to how good this game is balance-wise.

I still seriously can't touch Doodoodooze though. Not like I can't play him/etc, it's that I can't select him on the screen, he's too broken...


PS: I still think my 'Bell-Curve' list is more accurate for a 'Tier List' by definition and in a tangible way, but this list is for tournament-winning-ease exclusively, without CP's or match-up spreads or any statistics at all.



Edit: Corrections and spelling.

Super Late Edit: I was using this as a post to update my tier lists on every once in a while, but that's been moved to my most recent post on this thread... for now.​
 
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Kink-Link5

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I think Yoshi and MK definitely have hurdles in a tournament. I do think they have some of the highest potential in the cast, but I wouldn't put them at tops for tournament reasons.

Ice Climbers are also strong in this game. Blizzard walls from Brawl on top of the inherite strength of their Melee WD and some of the strongest desynch combos of any of their incarnations. They are at the least better off than Luigi, whom you have quite substantially high.
 
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Seagull Joe

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Ivy crushes Captain Falcon and I've seen Ivy beat Sheiks as well.

She has the tools to handle pretty much any MU.

Link could be top tier for sure, I'll ride the M2k express hype train.
She does NOT crush :falcon: in 3.0. Maybe she was quicker in previous versions, but she is perfect combo bait into knees, uairs, and everything. She loses that matchup.

:sheik: can outcamp :ivysaur:. She also is great at gimping her.

:018:
 

KayB

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I think Yoshi and MK definitely have hurdles in a tournament. I do think they have some of the highest potential in the cast, but I wouldn't put them at tops for tournament reasons.

Ice Climbers are also strong in this game. Blizzard walls from Brawl on top of the inherite strength of their Melee WD and some of the strongest desynch combos of any of their incarnations. They are at the least better off than Luigi, whom you have quite substantially high.
I've been looking for some tips for IC's. What are some Desynch combos/set-ups you use?
 
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Vashimus

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Ivy has a lot of trouble dealing with characters who are quick and can attack / approach from multiple angles to challenge her ground game. Falcon can run circles around her and can easily combo her to death. I agree with Seagull Joe, Ivy does not crush Falcon.
 
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CyberZixx

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Nausicca, I could never get behind saying that Pikachu is better than Mario, Fox or Falco as I feel he is exponentially worse but as least your list is different.
 

Kink-Link5

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I've been looking for some tips for IC's. What are some Desynch combos/set-ups you use?
Blizzard wall sets up for an easy grab, and out of grab, I've been able to get D-throw into Nana jump blizzard into Popo fair into Nana U-throw into Jump Belay, but it was a spur of the moment thing against particular DI. It's more about mixing creativity into moments of hitconfirms than doing specific things.
 
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KayB

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I've been able to get D-throw into Nana jump blizzard into Popo fair into Nana U-throw into Jump Belay. It's more about mixing creativity into moments of hitconfirms than doing specific things.
Wait, you combo d-throw > Nana jumping blizzard > Popo Fair > Nana Re-grab? That's insane, I didn't now that worked. How do you time Nana jumping blizzard? Do you do it when Popo slams the character into the ground, or do you do it before?
 

metroid1117

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I don't really see what's gimmicky about it. He already has a hitbox on the top of his body during Fire, this just adds a powerful sweetspot to the very end of his upward momentum. It's basically the exact same as Wolf Side B but upwards.

See here for the Brawl Hitboxes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhjqoPq8_vI#t=4m29s

Granted, one problem is that he actually falls back down a bit before the parachute comes out. It'd have to be changed so that he pulled it out at the very top.
Just as a note, hitboxes in Brawl were generally larger than Melee hitboxes; IIRC, they've generally been shrunken be consistent with Melee standards, so I don't think Brawl hitboxes provide that much valid data.
 

KayB

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Just as a note, hitboxes in Brawl were generally larger than Melee hitboxes; IIRC, they've generally been shrunken be consistent with Melee standards, so I don't think Brawl hitboxes provide that much valid data.
Do you guys have any hitbox data on IC's fair? It's really wonky and sends people in different directions based on where the hitbox is, so I was wondering if you have anything I could use. I looked at the guide in the ICs section and the explanation on the Fair hitbox made even less sense to me.
 

Archangel

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No...she's not. Pick :falcon: or :sheik: against her and see what I mean. No top 5 character should have 30-70 matchups.

:018:
Ivy has a lot of trouble dealing with characters who are quick and can attack / approach from multiple angles to challenge her ground game. Falcon can run circles around her and can easily combo her to death. I agree with Seagull Joe, Ivy does not crush Falcon.
I can confirm that Ivy struggles with sheik, gets bopped by falcon as well as a host of characters including Pit, Marth, Diddy, Metaknight, Fox, Falco and pretty much any character with good speed/projectile spam.
 

metroid1117

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Do you guys have any hitbox data on IC's fair? It's really wonky and sends people in different directions based on where the hitbox is, so I was wondering if you have anything I could use. I looked at the guide in the ICs section and the explanation on the Fair hitbox made even less sense to me.
I'm sure someone in the PMBR (or others outside the PMBR with the proper programs) can pull it up, but I don't have the software needed for it =/.
 

Nausicaa

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2 ICs = 1 Doodoodooze

As far as MK 'hurdles' go, I consider it a lot like Falcon 'hurdles' in that he can just camp harder since his neutral is so good. There might be some 'camp-harder' matches, but I don't really consider them a losing-cause by any means. MK might 'struggle' with camp-harder match-ups more like Peach, Yoshi, Wario, ROB, etc, instead of faster-pursuit match-ups like Falcon does, since he can't get around them as easily but can swat things away easier.
It's possible I've given him too much credit though. Sonic and Pika for similar reasons. Yoshi has some hurdles (DK-like characters) but again, change of pace is something he can do to great success without being 'hurt' by it.

MaxwellMouse, I can't get behind Fox/Falco being the top 2 characters in this game, that alone makes my stuff 'questionable' from the norm already, but I'm glad you appreciate the 'idea' in some way. haha
I think Wolf and Lucas have been the top 2 (or in the top 5) since 2.1...
I don't think I've ever put them below 5th in any Project: M incarnation. haha
 

KayB

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MK might 'struggle' with camp-harder match-ups more like Peach, Yoshi, Wario, ROB, etc, instead of faster-pursuit match-ups like Falcon does, since he can't get around them as easily but can swat things away easier.
How do you define camping?

She does NOT crush :falcon: in 3.0. Maybe she was quicker in previous versions, but she is perfect combo bait into knees, uairs, and everything. She loses that matchup.

:sheik: can outcamp :ivysaur:. She also is great at gimping her.

:018:
Ivy has a lot of trouble dealing with characters who are quick and can attack / approach from multiple angles to challenge her ground game. Falcon can run circles around her and can easily combo her to death. I agree with Seagull Joe, Ivy does not crush Falcon.
Would you say that the MU would be much close vs Falcon if the stage was smaller (ex. Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams)?
70-30 is pretty serious, I didn't think the MU was that bad.
 
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Nausicaa

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Dash Dance on the far side of the stage where they can't hit you even if you Falcon Punch, but you can hit them if they do anything because distance doesn't matter to you.
It's like camping with a projectile, but YOU BE THE PROJECTILE!!!
 

KayB

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Dash Dance on the far side of the stage where they can't hit you even if you Falcon Punch, but you can hit them if they do anything because distance doesn't matter to you.
It's like camping with a projectile, but YOU BE THE PROJECTILE!!!
How would yoshi be a camp-esque character? I could understand that he could implement a camping game to some extent, but I've always thought he was more offense-based character. Wario too.
 
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Kink-Link5

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Wait, you combo d-throw > Nana jumping blizzard > Popo Fair > Nana Re-grab? That's insane, I didn't now that worked. How do you time Nana jumping blizzard? Do you do it when Popo slams the character into the ground, or do you do it before?
My mistake, it was Popo's Side B, not Fair. The timing is faster than doing D-throw Nana dair, but blizzard should only hit once or not at all before the D-throw launches. It's also, again, spur of the moment and not something to practice.

Another great boon for them is that Nana can solo squall now. Take what you will from it. Right now I'm trying to incorporate U-tilt into stuff, but Nana refuses to leave the magnet zone around Popo.
 
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NFTsmasher

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I'd like to think that the better players from Melee are gravitating towards their favorite Melee characters and using those more often to win P:M tournaments. I see all the top characters from the summary tier list of the edited OP are all the popular top tier characters from Melee (Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, Peach, Mario/Dr. Mario). That's pretty much the tournament cast of Melee.

Moreover, what is the percentage of tier lists made from actual tournament results vs. speculation?
 

Archangel

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How do you define camping?



Would you say that the MU would be much close vs Falcon if the stage was smaller (ex. Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams)?
70-30 is pretty serious, I didn't think the MU was that bad.
Small stage vs Captain Falcon is a double edge sword. He can't run around as much but you die 20-30% faster. so....pick your poison. Best I can say is find a stage that is small-ish with higher ceilings. I'd say that FoD would be a good pick but falcon is going to ban that stage every time. So...idk.
 

KayB

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Another great boon for them is that Nana can solo squall now. Take what you will from it.
You mean while she's recovering?

Small stage vs Captain Falcon is a double edge sword. He can't run around as much but you die 20-30% faster. so....pick your poison. Best I can say is find a stage that is small-ish with higher ceilings. I'd say that FoD would be a good pick but falcon is going to ban that stage every time. So...idk.
Skyloft, BF, and Skyworld? Skyworld's main platform isn't that big, but I suppose the platforms would benefit Falcon's Uair. I'd imagine Skyloft's shape would throw Falcon's combo game off-balance, so I think that's a good choice. BF is the smallest neutral stage besides FoD and YS, so it's a better choice than Dreamland, PS2, and FD.
 
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Hinichii.ez.™

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If strong bad could have his way, every time falco got hit by a fireball, he would turn into a roasted chicken. If he had his way, every time a spacey shot a laser, you would only see a bang sign. If his was dream became a reailty, dk wouldn't have auto combos. wait i went off track
 
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CyberZixx

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I hope that one patch Strong Bad will get his way and give us all the gift of rebalanced spacies.
 

ChristianStewarts#1fan

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This sounds like hell. I hope someone captures strong bad and reprograms him into a falco main to keep all of that horribleness from happening
 

Nausicaa

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If I had my way, Squirt would have his 2.5 F-Tilt, but even BIGGER AND HARDER
Making it so good, that all anyone would bother doing, is F-Tilts into F-Tilts for days.







SUPER LATE NINJA EDIT ADDITION



I was using another post as my up-to-date list... but figured I'd use the most recent post in the thread by me to do it instead.
I'm gonna use this post as a place to update my Tier List when I feel like it.
Tier List Speculation April 1st Update 2014
Moved here on April 18th 2014
Slight edit May 11th

I think I was getting slightly over-influenced by others, but this list is reverting slowly back to my nearly initial 3.0 thoughts with a few tweaks.
Most characters have all been restored to positions very close to their original positions.

The biggest change I think to happen without being restored is the fall of Ice Climbers.
Nobody else has moved more than 2 spots from my original 3.0 list.
I added Shiek and Zelda as separate characters for this now.


:lucas::sonic::yoshi2::wolf::metaknight::luigi2:
:sheilda::zerosuitsamus::pit::pikachu2::mewtwopm::peach::diddy:
:snake::link2::mario2::ivysaur::fox::samus2::toonlink::wario:
:kirby2::roypm::zelda::falco::lucario::rob::falcon::ness2:
:olimar::sheik::dedede::charizard::gw::ike::dk2:
:squirtle::marth::popo::bowser2::ganondorf::jigglypuff:


Quite a few characters I consider as needing overall design adjustments. There is infinite flexibility with Smash, so what does this game need, and what does this game not need, to be the best it can be? If there could be a play-style or design concept in this game that isn't here already, what is it? Is there a character here that could be molded more in that direction? There are a lot of 'extremes' already, and that's good, but it should be done with intention of filling determined beneficial 'roles' in the game, rather than tweaked in directions and the characters just falling into place. Decide what the end-game should look like, with all characters and concepts that would be great in the game so nothing is missing or over-done, then adjust them each accordingly. The as-it-comes method based on moving what exists and seeing how it plays out with time is observably taking a much greater tole than is optimal on design balance, and that's expected and necessary, yet avoidable when it has done it's job. The game has some silliness as a result, but it was a needed phase to go through for all the great stuff that methodology provides, similar to open-source being crucial before proceeding into other functional formats of databases.






Top group I speculate as possibly needing balance changes (nerfs) directly.

Explanation
They're designed well for what they are, but they're polarizing due to being possibly 'too' good at what their 'base' is. Example: Lucas would be fine without that U-Throw, he wouldn't be any worse. Without it, the public mainstream players would probably be a lot better with the character too. Stocks shouldn't ever be finished with U-Throw when he can combo into B-Airs and F-Smashes so easily and more efficiently anyway, but this has taken a back-seat to allow people room to have terrible punishment games and still be ok because his 'base' of being fast/etc allows people to screw up and shrug it off. Bringing it back later would be fine, or just avoiding it for a while, but little things like this are similar to what happened to the old Sonic/etc. Take away the stuff that's 'silly' and see what's underneath. Given U-Throw isn't super-broken, it's overlooked as a hindrance even when it's hindering the exploration of what's underneath for the general populace very observably. There's a reason the meta-game is like a slug in regards to 'discovering' what characters are capable of, and this is a very demonstrable example anyone can see, and is very prominent among characters with good 'bases' (see Fox and U-Smash talks for another example, but he's explored to a great extent so getting that U-Smash isn't going to hurt his growth, where even the best Lucas's are absolute trash with the character, so the U-Throw stunts the growth for obvious reasons). It's not a big deal, and will come with time, but I'm an advocate of improving player development more than anything, and if there was a way to accelerate it purely through temporary game design set-backs, I'm all for it. People will laser for the sake of lasering, WD for the sake of WDing, and whatever else though, so it's a small deal.

PS: Other character not in the Top row fit under this function too, these characters just also really freaking good and I speculate them to be the Best (or a row of the Best) due to the base and overbearing traits in combination with everything else they have to offer.


Explanation April 24th





Bottom Rows I speculate as possibly needing balance changes (buffs) directly.

Requests
Give Squirtle his big old F-Tilt (he should be somewhat centered around stuff like that, given that's where mobility and 'push-off' play-style will thrive with his archetype, but it was taken out oddly, maybe if the BKB is restored it'll be enough), and more maneuverability backwards after Aqua-Jet so it can be used more liberally to finish on-stage strings. Things like that, he's solid though.

Give Ganon pulling effects on various moves (Smashes, U-Tilt, even just changing Warlock Punch into a simple wind effect move), making it more difficult to deal with him when he's working his cornering game. A faster Up-B grab-box is one of my requests from 2.1, and it's still wanted. His archetype will remain with these style changes, but he'll be more functional when his game actually gets somewhere out of neutral.

Give Jiggs increased range on F-Tilt or D-Tilt to cover herself better while grounded, and the ability to cancel Pound into jumps (On-Hit only maybe) or a follow-up Pound (double-slap?) This would give her more flexibility on a high priority option that can actually lead into something worth the attempt, without changing her design, game-plan, and archetype.

Marth could use more Knock-Back Growth on Tipper Up-Smash, Down-Smash, and most hit-boxes on Up-B. He needs the options in this game of variables. If Shield Breaker had early enough IASA frames, it could provide a great utility tool he's been lacking, and gives him more presence as a threat when pressuring in neutral and chasing.

Ice Climbers could use some normalizing. Unlike how normalizing can often not benefit a character, and almost hinder them (as it would trying to normalize Ganon from his archetype, and as it has somewhat to Samus due to hers, etc), the IC's will forever be unique and extreme simply by nature of having 2 of them. Some improvements to their actual attributes (range/KB/whatever) would greatly make them better, both in balance and design.

Play to the benefits of having 2 in neutral rather than 2 in punishment game, (which they have been catered to properly so far in PM, but could use more of), and the character will continue to be improved upon as a whole. Any attention given to things like chain/grab combos becoming a center-piece to the character is a waste of efforts, as it's very short-sighted. For the ICs to be a great character worth having in Smash, only the concepts of play applicable by having 2 characters under an individuals control at once throughout the maneuverability game, is a factor. Either that, or they will forever be a mini-game-based character of killing AI and avoiding the lead, being ever easier to separate as the game progresses, just as Melee becomes. Might as well be an Event Match in single player if they aren't normalized with their inevitable internal polarities as a character(s).

Bowser is a very solid character (as they all are really), and it's mostly his archetypes that holds him back (like some others in this tier Ganon/Jiggs), which is perfectly fine and done well. Some minor tweaks to anything from Bowser getting earlier JC frames/more invulnerable frames on grounded Down-B would be cool and won't dramatically change 'what' he does, only ever 'how well' he does it. Great character for what he is, just on the weaker side due to his 'base' as a character.

PS: There are many other things I'd love to see changed, but I'll only comment on these rows given I think they're the worst bunch (or likely a bunch of the worst) in the game right now.


Request and List Updated May 11th


Added Sheilda as a Character but kept Shiek and Zelda separate too now...
...and made the list more Bell-Curved
May 18th 2014
Last edit for a while I'm sure...​
 
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SixSaw

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Do you guys have any hitbox data on IC's fair? It's really wonky and sends people in different directions based on where the hitbox is, so I was wondering if you have anything I could use. I looked at the guide in the ICs section and the explanation on the Fair hitbox made even less sense to me.


Script:
Asynchronous Timer: frames=2
Bit Variable Set: RA-Bit[30] = true
Asynchronous Timer: frames=18
Offensive Collision: Id=0, Bone=LHammerN, Damage=11, ShieldDamage=0, Direction=285, BaseKnockback=40, WeightKnockback=0, KnockbackGrowth=90, Size=2.73, Z Offset=0, Y Offset=2.73, X Offset=0, TripRate=0%, HitlagMultiplier=x1, SDIMultiplier=x1, Flags=985858688
Offensive Collision: Id=1, Bone=LHammerN, Damage=13, ShieldDamage=0, Direction=70, BaseKnockback=40, WeightKnockback=0, KnockbackGrowth=100, Size=5.86, Z Offset=0, Y Offset=3.91, X Offset=0, TripRate=0%, HitlagMultiplier=x1, SDIMultiplier=x1, Flags=985858688
Offensive Collision: Id=2, Bone=LHammerN, Damage=12, ShieldDamage=0, Direction=70, BaseKnockback=40, WeightKnockback=0, KnockbackGrowth=100, Size=4.69, Z Offset=0, Y Offset=0, X Offset=0, TripRate=0%, HitlagMultiplier=x1, SDIMultiplier=x1, Flags=985858688
Synchronous Timer: frames=4
Terminate Collisions
Nop
Asynchronous Timer: frames=54
Bit Variable Clear: RA-Bit[30] = false
Allow Interrupt

tl;dr: the 11% meteor hitbox is a sweetspot on the handle. There's a 12% vertical hitbox on the arms, and a 13% vertical hitbox on the hammerhead. Hitboxes are out frames 19-22 (pic is frame 20)
 

NWRL

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We can all agree G-Rated Guts is the best character on the roster though right?

Right?
 
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