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Tier List Speculation

CORY

wut
BRoomer
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dallas area
I have also had concerns about his tech roll and just roll in general not being good, but those are things I've just wished to bring to light. I have seen people justify Captain Falcon's as well as Squirtles slow tech rolls because they are "offensive" characters, yet spacies have some really decent tech rolls, and so does the majority of the cast? Things like that are weird.
this is something that bugs me, too. spacies/shiek(?) have really solid tech options and oos options, as well as having the best rushdown games (not really shiek), along with having really solid defensive options in general (both outright projectile camping, as well as running away and not engaging in order to dictate match pace).

the most mobile characters have the best defensive options as well. it just seems so out of place. at least there seems to be a logic with falcon, in that he's very fast and can stay on top of you, so his defense is offense. if you get hit, you now have to deal with your crappy tech rolls and shield options.

i'll stop before i just whine about ganon's crappy oos options, because i think i've gotten too fixated on that...
 

SpiderMad

Smash Master
Joined
May 6, 2012
Messages
4,968
I personally think Charizard is pretty booty butt cheeks, seeing as he has some matchups that are lost at the character select screen. DK:Zard is a joke, and Lucas:Zard is like watching a marvel match of Zero vs Lei Lei.
I thought Zard DK was bad for Zard, but apparently it's the opposite according to SB/Metroid. Are you saying it's a joke for DK to try to win or Zard?
 
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Rᴏb

still here, just to suffer
Joined
Feb 1, 2012
Messages
1,595
@ Nguz95 Nguz95 I think you are really downplaying it's effectiveness! Characters with good ground approaches are the only ones that can get past bacon (sword users suck too), and even then they can still be thrown off by the advantages bacon gives G&W's positioning and stage control. If you are looking at bacon through the eyes of a Marth player or an MK player, I completely understand and agree that bacon would not be a threat to us in the neutral game, but you need to look at it from the general perspective! I really don't know what else I can say, bacon has always been recognized as such a dominant force in G&W's playstyle in PM, the G&W board's mantra is arguably "when in doubt, bacon". You can get bacon out and almost immediately throw out a hitbox as soon as you are on the ground. What can most characters do in this situation? Give up stage control, get hit by bacon, or run into your hitbox. I can't make you see this, so all I can say is experiment more!

This is the last I'll say about my proposed G&W changes: I don't know why you would think it wouldn't fit his design, when it would be basically fulfilling what bacon already does to most of the cast (this is where the disconnect occurs, because you don't agree). Does that mean it would be over-centralizing? Not at all, it would just be polarizing, which is completely acceptable for a glass-canon character.

I find it very funny that you assume I have a lack of experience against characters bacon doesn't work on when that was the whole basis of my suggestion!
 

Nguz95

Smash Lord
Joined
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I really don't know what else I can say, bacon has always been recognized as such a dominant force in G&W's playstyle in PM, the G&W board's mantra is arguably "when in doubt, bacon".
I guess this is where the disconnect occurs. I believe that relying on bacon is more limiting than effective, as I don't believe it fills the role of a neutral breaking projectile. It seems to me that there are other, more nuanced (and effective) ways to break neutral than just throwing out bacon.

This discussion reminds me of a match I saw between a Lucas player and a ROB player in my region. The first match, Lucas relied heavily on PK Freeze, throwing it out in neutral to set up for grabs, DACUS, and aerial approaches. It was highly effective the first match, and the Lucas player took the game by two stocks. The next match, however, ROB cracked the code and proceeded to three-stock Lucas in the next two matches, taking the set.

This anecdote is significant because it illustrates the way I view projectiles. A simple strategy always has a simple counter. If someone is rolling a lot, put hitboxes where they roll to. If someone is shield grabbing you, spotdodge. If someone is shooting projectiles, jump over the projectile. High-level techniques aren't necessary to combat low-level strategies as long as the move in question is well designed. In the story, the ROB player upped his pressure on the Lucas, never giving him a chance to separate and throw a PK Freeze. When Lucas did get open, the ROB di'ed away, throwing the Lucas off balance. Since the Lucas hadn't developed his neutral strategy beyond throwing PK Freeze, he suffered tremendously.

I believe the focus on bacon in neutral is a bad habit, as it keeps developing G&W players reliant on a simple strategy. It stifles the creativity that creates the imaginative approaches and baits we see from top-level players. In the long run, I don't think bacon will be reliable in neutral, but I do think it will have a place in G&W's game. I think development in G&W's metagame will not come from buffs in the projectile department, but rather creativity in neutral.

Again, this is just the opinion of the journeyman G&W main. Take it for what it's worth.
 

Rᴏb

still here, just to suffer
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Feb 1, 2012
Messages
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It stifles the creativity that creates the imaginative approaches and baits we see from top-level players.
If you want to watch someone who can help illustrate what I've been getting at, watch Dakpo. He's definitely the best G&W main and he uses bacon extremely well in the neutral game as well as the situations you described earlier!

Great gameplay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFf5y_dE8sw
 
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Kink-Link5

Smash Hero
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I thought Zard DK was bad for Zard, but apparently it's the opposite according to SB/Metroid. Are you saying it's a joke for DK to try to win or Zard?
Strong Bad has thus far obstinately stood by his claim that Charizard is a free win for DK. Charizard has gained no tools since then to use against DK, while DK still gets a kill off any hit on Charizard. Nair only does so much since it no longer knocks upward at the end and can be CC'd, and any whiffed attack means a half-dead or worse lizard. Unless Strong Bad has had some mystical mountain revelation about the matchup, it is the same as it ever was. Last I checked, he bodied metroid when they played such that it wasn't even a contest.

I use to think the match up was good for Zard, even one of his better match ups, but time has proven otherwise.
 
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Seagull Joe

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I absolutely love this game far more than Melee and Brawl. I will continue to play it and most of the cast has been taken care of very well as many have said, but I discuss with others about little inconsistencies that some characters have that just make sense. Like if you play against Ike for the first time you're just supposed to know his body is always a hitbox on his attacks? And why can all of Link's aerials be crouch-cancelled? It isn't like he's crazy aggressive attacking with his superior run speed, but Ivysaur's disjointed forward air cannot be crouch cancelled at ANY %? Something I have seen people get upset about... There are mechanics in the game that aren't normalized yet.
:ivysaur: has sucky approach options and a horrible close quarter's combat. She deserves some positive thing like Fair not being able to be CC'd. If you take that away then she loses her one main approach option.

:018:
 

Thane of Blue Flames

Fire is catching.
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Like if you play against Ike for the first time you're just supposed to know his body is always a hitbox on his attacks?.
... No?

I'm not sure I get the gist of your complaint. Are you saying that Ike's slow, telegraphed moves actually have some positive aspects to them? i.e. Covering a very wide area? Also, his body is not a hitbox ever. Dear god, I wish. He just has arm hitboxes, and even so his attacks are still pretty slow to come out. If you invade his space and get him into the air, Ike gets juggled for weeks.
 

jtm94

Smash Lord
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It isn't a complaint, just something I've noticed. I've looked at his hitboxes, and on almost every move there is a hitbox on his arms, chest and head while not every sword character has this. Ike's Fsmash is extremely slow and telegraphed, but so is Bowsers, but it covers more area and KOs faster. That's just something that bothers me.

Ike's fair is amazing.

And I watched that Dakpo video, he is amazing with GnW, but he got punished for using bacon SO MANY times and stops using it as much towards the end. I don't know what amazing uses of bacon you saw, and that isn't saying there weren't a few times where he used it REALLY well, but he got punished a lot.


And Ivy's fair can be crouch cancelled, we thought it couldn't be because it "seemed" like it couldn't be, but yeah you can crouch cancel it until like 80%
 
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DMG

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Burn the infidels? Let me summon Awestin, he's perfect for the job
 

Kaeldiar

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Strong Bad has thus far obstinately stood by his claim that Charizard is a free win for DK. Charizard has gained no tools since then to use against DK, while DK still gets a kill off any hit on Charizard. Nair only does so much since it no longer knocks upward at the end and can be CC'd, and any whiffed attack means a half-dead or worse lizard. Unless Strong Bad has had some mystical mountain revelation about the matchup, it is the same as it ever was. Last I checked, he bodied metroid when they played such that it wasn't even a contest.

I use to think the match up was good for Zard, even one of his better match ups, but time has proven otherwise.
Strong Bad is biased towards DK...he's always been a DK main, and knows EVERYTHING about DK. Shout outs to the greatest 0-death combo I have ever seen ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0mDJikelpU&list=PLcMdMmtHkPpRM1ZC4uNPoRyPs6vrHiEXY#t=02m40s ). SB probably knows DK's match-ups better than most, as evidenced by that combo, but I think he exaggerates. You could similarly say that DK has a 90-10 match-up against Falco because all he has to do is grab and then Falco is dead, but that's not the case.
 

metroid1117

Smash Master
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Strong Bad has thus far obstinately stood by his claim that Charizard is a free win for DK. Charizard has gained no tools since then to use against DK, while DK still gets a kill off any hit on Charizard. Nair only does so much since it no longer knocks upward at the end and can be CC'd, and any whiffed attack means a half-dead or worse lizard. Unless Strong Bad has had some mystical mountain revelation about the matchup, it is the same as it ever was. Last I checked, he bodied metroid when they played such that it wasn't even a contest.

I use to think the match up was good for Zard, even one of his better match ups, but time has proven otherwise.
The last time Strong Bad and I played, he bodied my Ike with DK, not Charizard. It's been roughly 5-6 months since Strong Bad and I have done DK vs Charizard and it was a seriously/$5MM per Rat's request and he ended up switching to Wario mid-set after being down 0-2, IIRC. Strong Bad cited Charizard as being in a weight class that's difficult to combo, but I don't recall if there were any other factors besides that. It's been a while since I played the match-up, but personally, I don't think it's that bad; DK's size makes him susceptible to tech chases or combos from BThrow and juggling works relatively well because he doesn't really have safe moves that cover the area immediately below him. Charizard also edgeguards DK pretty well, being able to get past the invincible hands on up+B with Heat Wave or BAir.

Again though, I haven't played this match-up in about 5-6 months, but those are my 2 cents. For what it's worth (which probably isn't much), back when my Charizard and Ike were comparably good with each other (I've neglected Charizard as of late because Ike was more fun), I would've rather played Charizard-DK than Ike-DK.
 

Kink-Link5

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If both you and Strong Bad can agree to that being the case, I'll drop out of defending my position on it. I would like to see more recent sets of Strong Bad or other DKs of similar or better level faring against Top performing Charizards for further study, though.

Firefox spellchecks Charizard as Richard.
 
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Ali Baba 177

Smash Journeyman
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Im gonna finish up the tier list soon so if anyone else wants to have a say in who they think should be where in a tier list fill out the surveys in my signature below!
 

Pika_thunder

Smash Apprentice
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Oct 26, 2013
Messages
112
About jiggs, she is bad because pit is just a better version of her.

Edit: AKA she needs more than Bair and rest.
 
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Thane of Blue Flames

Fire is catching.
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I'm watching Polybash XIII and the commentators are actually pissing me off so much.

"Pit has a chaingrab on fastfallers! That is ridiculous, that makes him so broken."

-_-

Edit: The commentator was Mew2King.

...

Welp, that explains a lot
 
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Thane of Blue Flames

Fire is catching.
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The Polybash was a good tournie for hot Ike action.

But then at TFP6 we have Pink Fresh going Super Saiyan. Singles, less impressive, but just watch him in Doubles, 2 v 1'ing Chu and Squeak.

Good stuff to Seagull, nice to see you taking P:M serious finally, and I'm pretty sure ChuFresh is the first big P:M rivalry.

EDIT: I do gotta be honest though ... Ivy's Bair is a lot like Ike Fair, but fast. I think Seagull said somewhere that he heard Ivy's in for another nerf. If true, it really shouldn't be past tuning down this move a little, if at all. Everyone's got a spammable aerial, it's up to y'all to decide if Ivy's principal spacing tool is cool or overcentralizing, but I strongly feel that's the last point of contention on saur.

EDIT2: Pikachu ain't bad.
 
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MysteryRevengerson

IT'S A MYSTERY TO ALL
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Dakpo is god the infidels must burn
I'd prefer them get Pan Fried if you catch my drift.

Ivy's bair is sooooo good. I don't like Ivy's UpB KOing so early for how many things toss up into it.
I don't like Fox's Up-Smash KOing so early for how fast it is, but sometimes you just gotta deal with some ****. (This isn't really an argument or serious post before people get on my ass)
 

TCT~Phantom

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Writing Team
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Can someone hit me up with my Main man Bowser's Matchups? If so thanks :).

I am a decent Bowser in PM, I just wanna know who to train against...
 

Kink-Link5

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Ivy's bair is sooooo good. I don't like Ivy's UpB KOing so early for how many things toss up into it.
I don't like Lucas's U-throw killing so early for how easily Lucas can land a grab but hey, them's the breaks.

...

Dude.

Wall of Pain.
Besides similar on-stage Walling, they can also do the same kind of off-the-stage carry combos.
 
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Terotrous

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Putting the parachute at the apex of UpB is a terrible idea and extremely gimmicky. I don't know who would ever suggest such a bad idea.
I don't really see what's gimmicky about it. He already has a hitbox on the top of his body during Fire, this just adds a powerful sweetspot to the very end of his upward momentum. It's basically the exact same as Wolf Side B but upwards.

See here for the Brawl Hitboxes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhjqoPq8_vI#t=4m29s

Granted, one problem is that he actually falls back down a bit before the parachute comes out. It'd have to be changed so that he pulled it out at the very top.


I kind of want his Melee parachute back to be honest. I really don't like that G&W has all of these slow as **** attacks with no real way to land them.(any of his ground smashes) You can dair landing hitbox into fsmash some days, and do the same into nair, but his attacks feel like they require me to make extremely hard reads because they are ALL SLOW.
This is why I want Brawl Nair and Dair back, because they were both fast attacks that you could actually land.

In general, G&W was significantly buffed from Melee to Brawl, so it's not surprising that reverting all of his Brawl changes sends him back to low / bottom tier. I think this is one of those cases where we really don't want Melee back, like how the team revamped Kirby rather than just returning him to Melee-level awfulness.
 

Seagull Joe

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The Polybash was a good tournie for hot Ike action.

But then at TFP6 we have Pink Fresh going Super Saiyan. Singles, less impressive, but just watch him in Doubles, 2 v 1'ing Chu and Squeak.

Good stuff to Seagull, nice to see you taking P:M serious finally, and I'm pretty sure ChuFresh is the first big P:M rivalry.

EDIT: I do gotta be honest though ... Ivy's Bair is a lot like Ike Fair, but fast. I think Seagull said somewhere that he heard Ivy's in for another nerf. If true, it really shouldn't be past tuning down this move a little, if at all. Everyone's got a spammable aerial, it's up to y'all to decide if Ivy's principal spacing tool is cool or overcentralizing, but I strongly feel that's the last point of contention on saur.

EDIT2: Pikachu ain't bad.
Thanks man. :ivysaur: isn't amazing in singles. She's a mid tier who has some matchups she excels at and some she gets destroyed at. I hope she keeps her bair. It's not nearly as good as some other things in this game. It is a spacing tool and great for edgeguarding those with very linear recoveries, but it can easily just be shielded on stage and it doesn't combo very well. If it's taken away then that will instantly make :ivysaur: an even worse character. Her results aren't overcentralizing. She doesn't place top placings consistently. People are just dumb when it comes to actually learning matchups.
The developers just want melee characters to stay broken I guess. :fox: and :falco: will forever be two top tiers for this reason...

:018:
 
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NWRL

Smash Ace
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So M2K went on a rant on how Ike, Link and Ivy are all high/top tier characters, what
 

Ripple

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
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Ivy is definitely still a contender for top 5 imo
 

Kink-Link5

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lol guess im dumb,
but still, dont they both go about it in quite different ways? They just don't seem that similar to me even if they have similar main strategies.
Jigglypuff: Multiple jumps and weaving in and out with bair to keep the opponent out of an area of the stage while staying airborne, and thus mobile.
Pit: Multiple jumps and gliding alongside ranged aerials to keep the opponent out of an area of the stage while staying airborne, and thus mobile.

The differences between how they Wall are insubstantial, and both set up for the same kind of carry kills.

To put it in perspective, other characters that can WoP, like Wario, lack the capacity to stay airborne for long or initiate a carry combo from it.

Pit does what Jigglypuff does, better, and does other things on top of that.


So M2K went on a rant on how Ike, Link and Ivy are all high/top tier characters, what
Jason isn't well known for his adaptation skills. There's a reason Mango says all you have to do to beat him is "Just play weird."
 
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