Tier List Speculation

[JOE!]

Nerf? PM was designed to be closer to Melee and very far from Brawl. You can't exactly "nerf" a character when the gameplay styles are so different.

You can comparatively.

For example, MK was far and away the god tier of Brawl. In P:M he is merely top tier.

 

[Nguz95]

>What G^W needs is better approaching
>*Proposes idea that fulfills this*
>It's a projectile so no

That's boomerang level of silly.

Do you really think there would be any repercussions? And even if there were any, could they not be fixed by adjusting landing lag?

Im going to preface this by saying that the PMBR is trying to achieve good character design over balance in the belief that good design is conducive to balance.

With that out of the way, I'm going to analyze bacon from a design standpoint, not a balance standpoint. I'm not convinced that bacon is a really good projectile for breaking the neutral. It seems to be especially efficient at occupying the space directly above and in front of G&W, but it takes time to get coverage in the area right in front of G&W. It's very much a retreating projectile, more akin to Link's boomerang than Falco's lasers, which is why I don't think throwing it out on a place like Final Dest is really a good idea. I think it's best use lies in catching people on platforms when G&W is at ground-level. It freezes the opponent, either forcing them to shield or hitting them outright, which opens them up to a nair, a uair, or a grab.

On stages like Final Destination, however, I think bacon's use is more limited. Using bacon in raw neutral opens G&W up for ground approaches, as the pan only has a hitbox at the beginning of the animation. Similarly, approaching with the pan is a gimmick at best, as the bacon, the actual projectile, doesn't fly in a straight line, which means the only hitbox that is directly threatening your opponent is the pan and the dtilt/jab/grab that comes after it. I'm sure it's a fine mixup, but again, it's use is limited. The best use for bacon on flat stages, in my opinion, is to punish aerial approaches. If G&W is wavedashing around and throwing out dtilts to discourage ground approaches, then he can follow up with bacon to catch the opponent as he tries to jump over G&W's hitboxes, setting up for finishers and combos.

Other uses for bacon on flat stages include occupying space while your opponent tries to get back from the ledge, baiting a ground approach (not my favorite one), and extending aerial combos (debatably the best use for it in general).

Again, I'm not convinced that it is a good tool for breaking neutral. It doesn't force a certain response like Falco and Wolf's lasers do. I see it more as a tool to pressure and punish the opponent when he is in a disadvantageous position.

Now, say we change bacon in some way to make it good for breaking the neutral game. Instead of getting a cool projectile that has many uses beyond spamming it in neutral, we would have a move that is over-centralizing. Similarly to Falco's lasers, bacon would become the default move when neither character is at an advantage. Bacon would be superior to G&W's other, more limited, approach options, which would mean that a majority of the time there would be no reason not to use it. Imagine a situation similar to Ivy's Razor Leaf in 2.6. I'vy's approach was centralized around that one move, as it outclassed nearly all of her other options in the neutral game. That's poor design.

In conclusion, I agree with DMG. Making the projectile good should take a back seat to making the character good. Buffing the moves G&W currently does not use as often in neutral would be a much more effective way to improve his design. It would also have the added bonus of balancing him, which makes it a win-win for the PMBR.

 

[Deleted member]

I was also wondering, what would you guys think if they added a super rare to get "0" for the Judge hammer, that does no damage, but if it makes contact a huge burst of water pushes them akin to Kyogre.

I realize the Judge is good enough already but it'd be a neat little addition nonetheless.

Also back to the Bacon discussion, one thing that makes the move feel infuriating is when you do the move quickly, and follow with a any of your smash attacks, sometimes they will get caught on your still in air bacons and not take the knockback, and the really quick opponents sometimes even punish you back. ) :

I find a counter would be a much more useful tool for our old 2d pal imo.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Anyone see KDJ's Zelda at smashing grounds? I mean people are always saying Zelda is a Defensive campy character but KDJ was playing the opposite, he was so aggressive and all over the place

Can I get a link to this rare creature that is a aggressive Zelda?

 

[Rᴏb]

Alright, hopefully I can get across what I'm thinking.

On stages like Final Destination, however, I think bacon's use is more limited. Using bacon in raw neutral opens G&W up for ground approaches, as the pan only has a hitbox at the beginning of the animation. Similarly, approaching with the pan is a gimmick at best, as the bacon, the actual projectile, doesn't fly in a straight line, which means the only hitbox that is directly threatening your opponent is the pan and the dtilt/jab/grab that comes after it. I'm sure it's a fine mixup, but again, it's use is limited. The best use for bacon on flat stages, in my opinion, is to punish aerial approaches. If G&W is wavedashing around and throwing out dtilts to discourage ground approaches, then he can follow up with bacon to catch the opponent as he tries to jump over G&W's hitboxes, setting up for finishers and combos.

Other uses for bacon on flat stages include occupying space while your opponent tries to get back from the ledge, baiting a ground approach (not my favorite one), and extending aerial combos (debatably the best use for it in general).

Again, I'm not convinced that it is a good tool for breaking neutral. It doesn't force a certain response like Falco and Wolf's lasers do. I see it more as a tool to pressure and punish the opponent when he is in a disadvantageous position.

In my opinion, bacon does incite a certain response from opponents in a similar but different way that Falco's lasers do. Bacon occupies air space (like you said) and forces opponents to:
a) give up stage control
b) approach from above the bacon (least successful option)
c) approach from below the bacon

As long as I'm constantly using bacon to maintain some stage control, one of these has to happen, and most often than not its c. Whenever our bacon doesn't hit, we are basically baiting an approach so we can punish with a tilt or an aerial and that is when our approach begins (and when it does hit, we get a free combo string). This is a huge part of G&W's game in my opinion, spamming bacon in the neutral game is as necessary as spamming lasers is for Falco, it just isn't as good. My proposed changes don't make it as good as them either, they simply give us an answer for characters that can punish us for trying to bait them (characters with long disjointed hitboxes, projectiles we can't bucket, etc.)

Now, say we change bacon in some way to make it good for breaking the neutral game. Instead of getting a cool projectile that has many uses beyond spamming it in neutral, we would have a move that is over-centralizing. Similarly to Falco's lasers, bacon would become the default move when neither character is at an advantage. Bacon would be superior to G&W's other, more limited, approach options, which would mean that a majority of the time there would be no reason not to use it. Imagine a situation similar to Ivy's Razor Leaf in 2.6. I'vy's approach was centralized around that one move, as it outclassed nearly all of her other options in the neutral game. That's poor design.

In conclusion, I agree with DMG. Making the projectile good should take a back seat to making the character good. Buffing the moves G&W currently does not use as often in neutral would be a much more effective way to improve his design. It would also have the added bonus of balancing him, which makes it a win-win for the PMBR.

To be honest, I find bacon to already be the go-to move for when neither character has an advantage. I don't think it's over-centralizing because it can be defended against by a good portion of the cast. Most characters have moves that can hit straight through bacon, and some characters can successfully approach G&W without getting punished despite there being a wall of bacon. I still think that it is always a move worth throwing out despite it not being the best option for every given matchup.

With all of that said, the other uses for bacon you stated I completely understand and agree with, I just think that bacon is a completely viable option in the neutral game and deserves a buff so it works against G&W's worst matchups.

 

[DMG]

If you want his neutral game to be better, let him approach like a genuine character instead of having to sit there and:

1. Throw Bacon
2. Hold D and press A

I don't support buffing his projectile to cover any more flaws in neutral. Give him power elsewhere so that we don't have super omega "control you" bacon that forces the opponent to consider much more than G&W.

Lower bacon, higher bacon, more BPS (bacon per second), bacon that bounces off the floor, etc

Don't do it.

 

[JOE!]

Change it to canadian bacon

 

[Kink-Link5]

This isn't a "buff characters pls" thread. This is a thread to discuss how characters fare currently.

Or fairs currently, if the character is Sheik.
Sheik.
Sheik.

 

[Rᴏb]

G&W can totally approach like a genuine character, bacon is just his best option in many cases... Is that so wrong? Why are some characters allowed to have projectiles that serve a purpose while others are not?

Kink is completely right though. It's just that the G&W forums don't get too much traffic, so I don't get to read much about what others expect to see from G&W in future balance patches...

 

[Kink-Link5]

You can sneak some suggestions into a post, but don't make it the center point.

Like "If Game and Watch's uair had less growth, he'd be able to use it consistently, but that isn't the case, so instead he has to use X Y and Z other moves to set up for a more consistent vertical kill." Say things about how the character interacts in the game now in various regards more so than how you want them to.

 

[Paradoxium]

Can I get a link to this rare creature that is a aggressive Zelda?

http://www.twitch.tv/gameunderground/b/506899369

And KDJ is known for being really aggressive, that's how he become one of the best

 

[Nguz95]

G&W can totally approach like a genuine character, bacon is just his best option in many cases... Is that so wrong? Why are some characters allowed to have projectiles that serve a purpose while others are not?

Kink is completely right though. It's just that the G&W forums don't get too much traffic, so I don't get to read much about what others expect to see from G&W in future balance patches...

Bacon is not his best option in many cases. In fact, I'd say it's below the 50th percentile for options in neutral. The reason why it's bad in neutral is simple: It's slow. The amount of time it takes to get two pieces of bacon near ground level (where ground-based characters have to worry about it) is considerable, which means that Fox, Marth, Roy, Sheik, Metaknight, Luigi, etc. are not going to let you sit there and get more than two pieces in the air without punishing you. You should almost never be able to set up a wall of bacon (four or more pieces) without either giving up stage control or getting hit. I'm not judging you when I say this, but it seems to me that you have yet to encounter a high-level player who plays a mobile character.

Now, this is by no means bad for G&W's design. He does have one of the most dangerous punish games in the business, so being able to set up in neutral by simply tossing out a few pieces of bacon would be absurd from a design standpoint (looking at you, Falco). What would make more sense would be to keep bacon in it's current form and modify some of his other characteristics (landing lag on aerials, dash dance length, etc.) so he can better interact with his opponent at mid to close range, which is the area he excels in anyway.

What you're proposing is giving a zoning tool to a character that is at his best when he is able to move in and out of his opponent's range while keeping control of his own hitboxes. G&W is designed for mid range, so encouraging him to camp outside that range would be both counter-intuitive and toxic to the characters who struggled against bacon in the first place.

Additionally, buffing his bacon game to the level where it is able to handle high mobility characters would be absolutely deadly to low-mobility or air-based characters. It would most certainly be an over-centralizing move. We only have to look back to 2.5 to see how much super food affected G&W's interactions with Peach, Bowser, DDD, etc.

In short, I think you're trying to get Bacon to conform to an ideal set by other characters, when its use is much more nuanced and unique than the moves you're familiar with. This conversation is extremely similar to the one surrounding Ganon and whether or not to give him a projectile. My answer is almost exactly the same: It doesn't fit with his design, and it would be over-centralizing, both of which would create more imbalance than it would solve.

 

[Terotrous]

I thought Up-air still has a wind effect? Doesn't Bucket braking still exist in lesser form? Parachute on Fire what?

The parachute on Fire was that in Brawl, after Up B he opens a parachute, kind of akin to Peach's Parasol but he can act out of it. It's been removed, reducing his recovery abilities (however, if he already had the parachute, it wouldn't make a ton of sense for him to have the parachute as his Nair, that's probably why it's gone).

And yes Bucket Braking still exists, but due to the change in the hitstun mechanics from Brawl to PM it's not nearly as powerful as it is in Brawl. I don't disagree with this change, but it's still a nerf.

Uair is essential to his combo game. Not all his aerials need to be kill aerials, and uair gives him the juggling capability that he desperately needed. It's also his fastest aerial. He can opt out of the second hit and the ground hitbox retreat, making it incredibly safe.

Maybe. Uair isn't a terrible move, but I think I'd rather have Tropical Fish if I had to choose. I feel like GW is pretty weak at neutral at current, and I'd take a hit to his combo game in exchange for better neutral play.

Of course, it'd be ideal if he could somehow keep both moves, but it'd require some kind of creative solution. Like for example, perhaps Fire goes back to being how it was in Brawl, but the opening of the parachute at the top is now the parachute attack. Of course, this would mean you can now only use Parachute after Fire, but it would still work decently as a follow-up to Uair, and you'd get Tropical Fish back. I'm not sure if this would be an improvement or not, I'd need time to play around with it.

Having the super fast fall dair sounds nice, but it's actually not that helpful. Currently dair has three hitboxes: the initial meteor, the lasting hitbox, and a landing hitbox. The landing hitbox is crucial for setting up juggles, and it provides enough hitstun to leag into usmash on nearly everyone. Dair has enormous utility with these three hitboxes, and adding the super fast fall will force one of them to be removed (probably the landing hitbox).

Pretty sure the landing hitbox is still in Brawl. It can definitely produce another hit as it hits the ground. If one hitbox is gone, I think it's the meteor, which I'd be willing to drop for the fast fall.

Additionally, the super fast fall doesn't add anything to his game.

I don't see how. It gets him to the ground faster, which not only makes neutral jump into Dair more dangerous, but it also allows him to L-Cancel and follow up with further pressure faster. Incidentally, Tropical Fish is a pretty good follow-up to Dair in Brawl.

 

[DMG]

If you force G^W to parachute attack after Upb, he would lose the opportunity to do different DJ followups or finishers. You wouldn't be able to Upb into judgement for example, since Parachute would smack them away. You would also have the question of how this would affect his sweetspot ability. Being able to rise up a huge distance, and have a big hitbox cover him while he grabs the edge, probably isn't a good idea. If you don't let him sweetspot, or force the timing back/force the timing after the parachute, you're messing up a big part of the character.

If anything, you change G^W's Nair and don't even bother putting back in the parachute. Period. Not for recovery, not for attacking, just get rid of the concept. Go back to fish bucket and don't try to please people that would still want parachute, because you're not gonna find a good way to keep it.

 

[JOE!]

Up B: Remains normal

Up B and press B again to cancel: Creates the parachute at the moment you press B, then goes to special fall or somethin

 

[DMG]

How would that work? I could see that interfere with someone mashing a special after using Upb, again like judgment

You'd probably have to hold B instead. Either way, this is so much work to keep in an aspect that's frankly not core to the character or needed.

I think with the buffs to his aerial game overall though, that Nair doesn't feel that useful. The hitbox coverage on his Fair and Uair are decent enough + have better startup, judgment is more useful on "bad" numbers, Fair hits decently hard enough that Nair doesn't feel different enough, etc. I would much rather consider buffing or tweaking Nair, instead of fully replacing it though. The work needed of getting his Old Nair to work well for balance/fun in PM is probably more than people realize. Due to vastly different fall speeds and weight combinations + faster fall speed for G^W himself in PM, it might be hard to get the "suck in" hitboxes to correctly work and figure out appropriate knockback/angles/cooldown. I'm also not sure what you'd want to accomplish with his Old Nair. If you want smoother approaching or trapping, there would be better ways to accomplish those goals

 

[Terotrous]

If you force G^W to parachute attack after Upb, he would lose the opportunity to do different DJ followups or finishers.

It'd work just like how it does in Brawl: Fire launches G&W upwards, and at the top, he pulls out his parachute, which has its current PM hitbox and power. Once the parachute has been deployed, you can cancel the descent with an aerial, or maybe even a jump if you still have one (Brawl doesn't allow jump cancel, but it might be a nice buff).

This sounds super strong, but keep in mind it's limited to a very specific circumstance where the opponent is at a precise height directly above you. I feel like landing it would be akin to landing Wolf Side B, it looks hellishly impressive but is very hard to set up reliably.

I'm also not sure what you'd want to accomplish with his Old Nair. If you want smoother approaching or trapping, there would be better ways to accomplish those goals

Mostly better approach game + pressure (combined with restored Brawl Dair). If you have other ideas on how to buff him I'm certainly open to other suggestions, I just figured that the "easiest" possible change was to revert changes from Brawl to PM.

 

[DMG]

It should be optional, so that he doesn't lose the choice to do better/easier/riskier followups, and so that he can DJ out of Upb quicker.

Adding a hitbox to the end of his Upb is a bad idea, no matter how you slice it imo. He has Upb for flexibility in combos and recovery, in part because he can jump or do different attacks so quickly out of it. Adding a mandatory Parachute hitbox is just bad design. We can't say that Parachute for Nair is bad, but dearly deserves to be stuck on the end of his Upb. It's not a very good argument. "Take a move that we disliked or wanted changed so much, and tack it on to a recovery while possibly hampering the flexibility G^W players already love out of his Upb"

If you make it optional, you would probably want it to be a hold. Hold B/A to get the parachute at the end, otherwise you don't get it. There's not much of a point to this though, besides making his design overly janky.

 

[Terotrous]

It should be optional, so that he doesn't lose the choice to do better/easier/riskier followups, and so that he can DJ out of Upb quicker.

Adding a hitbox to the end of his Upb is a bad idea, no matter how you slice it imo. He has Upb for flexibility in combos and recovery, in part because he can jump or do different attacks so quickly out of it. Adding a mandatory Parachute hitbox is just bad design. We can't say that Parachute for Nair is bad, but dearly deserves to be stuck on the end of his Upb. It's not a very good argument. "Take a move that we disliked or wanted changed so much, and tack it on to a recovery while possibly hampering the flexibility G^W players already love out of his Upb"

If you make it optional, you would probably want it to be a hold. Hold B/A to get the parachute at the end, otherwise you don't get it. There's not much of a point to this though, besides making his design overly janky.

I don't think Parachute is purely a bad attack. It clearly has uses, mostly as an air combo finisher, which in many cases would come right after Fire. That's why I think sticking it on the end of Fire preserves much of its usefulness while still freeing up a slot for another aerial.

Also, I think you're slightly mistaking what I'm asking for here. In Brawl, the moment the Parachute is open, you can cancel with another move. I'm not saying "after UpB G&W immediately uses his current UAir and cannot do anything until it completes", I'm saying "after UpB, the Parachute opens and has its current hitbox and power for one frame, afterwards G&W can immediately perform any other action".

It basically just adds a powerful hitbox to the end of Brawl UpB.

 

[XalchemistX]

Does anyone else feel that Mewtwo's tail is op?
I love that I'm winning a ton more matches by using the tail, but can't help to feel like it's not fair because of it's long range and far knockback

Also Roy's up B seems a bit too short

 

[jtm94]

Putting the parachute at the apex of UpB is a terrible idea and extremely gimmicky. I don't know who would ever suggest such a bad idea.

I kind of want his Melee parachute back to be honest. I really don't like that G&W has all of these slow as **** attacks with no real way to land them.(any of his ground smashes) You can dair landing hitbox into fsmash some days, and do the same into nair, but his attacks feel like they require me to make extremely hard reads because they are ALL SLOW. His uair and UpB being frame 1 don't do anything, try jumping at someone with uair and get laughed at. His animations are bothering me severely... His fair sometimes hits on the wind-up when he holds the credit card vertical, sometimes it hits while swinging, there's a part it reaches abnormally far, but only sometimes? And I have absolutely no idea when the move ends because visually you can't tell what it is doing. I want dtilt changed so it doesn't look like the attack is happening before it actually is, it is extremely unpolished and more time has gone into minor things. Same with his chair.

G&W is definitely bad to a certain extent, I want bacon to have the bigger hitboxes again, god forbid he have a good MU against large characters because bacon. That's like saying let's not give characters chain grabs on fastfallers because that's unfair to fastfallers... What?

I'm just being abrasive because why not? I just recently played with A LOT of people from Melee to modern age players today for several hours, and I will play G&W with my hardest might and he just gets beat because I feel like I'm using an inferior character. I can then swith to MK or Lucas or Diddy and either perform significantly better or win. People say G&W's uair is a good combo move.... Look at Metaknight's up air, it hits at pretty much the same speed, covers a larger area, and has less end lag.... Zelda is also super easy to play with imo. She does need some rebalancing and I really can't wait until the new build is ready.

Mewtwo is extremely good. His tail is..... I don't have words to describe something that good. I wish any of my characters had that.... His upsmash hits extremely far to his sides for no apparent reason? The knockback and stun on uncharged shadow balls is ridiculous. I'm not complaining I really like seeing him be good, he is just legitimately too good... That's all I can say.

 

[DMG]

G^W Fair hitbox coverage was buffed iirc to be more leniant. You can catch people with the inside of G^W/the box easier during the very initial startup. It's overall pretty balanced. I get what you are saying on his attacks too: a lot of the time he has a lingering animation without actual hitbox coverage. Prominent moves being Fair, Dtilt, and Bair (technically Key as well, but they buffed the cooldown/iasa frames/did something to it).


I think it's generally OK, and doesn't need to be fixed that badly. It doesn't take too long to learn the timing for when his moves "actually" end vs what their animation shows. You get a decent feel for it by playing G^W, and with a buddy you can sit down and learn when Dtilt is vulnerable etc. You could argue that it's sloppy, but it's not a big deal since the workaroud is learning/dealing with the timing compared to a very jarring graphical problem.


G^W startup is an issue, but what he would need are reasons to use bigger startup moves in the first place. Reducing startup on say Fsmash, would not change the fact that you probably won't have good opportunities to combo or tech chase into it. G&W is much better at landing mobile kill moves (especially aerial ones), since his attacks tend to send people flying already. Most of his smashes are hard to use in that regard, since there's a good chance you're doing a vertical combo or a better edgeguard or you got a throw that only combos into Fair/Judgment etc. Buffing their startup probably would not change much, unless you took it into ridiculous territory like a frame 3-4 Usmash. What it might do, is give you a better incentive when you CC an attack to not immediately use Dtilt, but that's about it.


If your big startup move is a grounded attack, the fact that you are probably immobile while doing such attack can be a much bigger deal than the startup itself. I think this is more in line with his problem

 

[Strong Badam]

G&W is definitely bad to a certain extent, I want bacon to have the bigger hitboxes again, god forbid he have a good MU against large characters because bacon. That's like saying let's not give characters chain grabs on fastfallers because that's unfair to fastfallers... What?

Don't really have the time to address the rest of your post but this is pretty obviously flawed logic. It's generally agreed upon that the fast fallers kind of deserve everything they get. Contrarily, a few of the weakest characters in the game also happen to be big, and thus clearly don't deserve such excessive punishment. Either way, I doubt G&W suddenly loses to those characters. Note that his Food hitboxes were never decreased; Super Food was simply removed.

 

[DMG]

It's not even whether big or FF or x character deserves to get wrecked. For the sake of balance and enjoyment, a character losing to a strategy that isn't very complicated or nuanced doesn't seem very healthy. Buffing Bacon by adding much lower angles, the rebirth of Super Bacon, etc starts to lead people down that path. *Especially* when it comes to projectiles, you don't want to give people massive amounts of free power and start limiting counterplay. Like take Bacon's flaws: instead of patching Bacon to be better against the 5-10 characters who shrug it off well, why not buff something in G^W's kit to compensate for those issues? Sword users and rush down does well vs Bacon? Buff his Ftilt a tad to help him cope with it.

Like take these two scenarios:

1. G^W uses Bacon and it has a weakness to people running under it/rushing at him quickly. To help deal with this, one of his tilts or jab or x thing got buffed to help fight those people. This buffed option can still be baited and punished by the opponent, but overall is designed to help the character out when Bacon isn't working so well.

2. G^W uses Bacon and it has that same weakness. To help out, they buff Bacon so that there are lower trajectories you can't run under so well, and stronger hitboxes you can't rush down so well. Buffing this leaves the opponent with... what counter play exactly? As the Bacon user, you get to be sloppier with how you normally would control space, since the lower trajectories will automatically cover those problem areas. Or the buff to make clanking/attacking through the bacon harder, takes away an option for the opponent and doesn't require you to think much. The Bacon has built in flaw coverage for your convenience!

 

[JOE!]

Clearly, what they should do is just give him a sex kick

/EndTiredBSFromDoingDatabasesliterallyALLday

 

[DMG]

Yeah. G^W should use his 2D PP for the GG

 

[NightShadow6]

Any idea where Charizard stands as of now?

 

[Kink-Link5]

There's no idea of where anyone better than Ganon and worse than Fox stands right now.

I personally think Charizard is pretty booty butt cheeks, seeing as he has some matchups that are lost at the character select screen. DK:Zard is a joke, and Lucas:Zard is like watching a marvel match of Zero vs Lei Lei.

Charizard does best against tall humans, and worst against any character that can ignore nair and/or 0-death him. His tech chases don't matter when Wolf can put up a shield, jump out with a horizontally mobile shine, and tack up 60+%

 

[jtm94]

HOLD UP! They changed Link's lingering hitbox on his nair because it didn't look like he was attacking at the moments it was out, but having a move look exactly like the actual active hitboxes, but not be active is ok? It's just a simple animation thing, I've been playing him off and on for a few months and I can land the moves, but I don't always use the exact same parts every time and I still run into instances where the move IS NOT out but the animation IS.

Super food was larger thus the hitboxes were decreased in size. I speak of maintaining the super food size, but with the normal KB on all of them.

I don't want a bacon that I can win with alone by spamming.

I want a bacon that actually has a chance to hit the opponent allowing me to capitalize on said instance and punish.

As it is now bacon really doesn't do much unless against fastfallers, in most instances where bacon is being used, one could have used a better move instead.

I would rather have a different move if it is to be left alone.

Buffing bacon so it has a lower trajectory doesn't make bacon better than any other projectile in the game. You say as though it going lower leaves the opponent with absolutely nothing to do... Even though it was already discussed that anything moderately disjointed can cut through it, or it could be jumped over. I don't want a bacon-machine-gun if that's what you're implying, I just want an angle that isn't nullified by ANY platform.

 

[DMG]

It's not ideal, but on a list of things to be fixed in PM, that has certainly got to be very low. There are so many things with grab releases, character buffs and nerfs, etc that animation changes to be less "misleading" don't seem like a big deal. On a scale of 1-10, I'd probably rate it a 2 or 3. If I were to pick fixing the way Link's Nair looked/worked, vs buffing or nerfing stuff, I would 10/10 pick buffing and nerfing stuff.

For Bacon: no it wouldn't be the best projectile in the game. But what do you intend to get out of the move? Those changes are more limiting/annoying for the defender, instead of actually opening up a door of possibilities for G^W. There are a lot of scenarios right now, where if the other person only gets smacked by 1 piece of Bacon, you're not guaranteed much. Regardless of trajectory or positioning. Adding a low trajectory would not fix many of those scenarios. If you wanted better chances, you might be better off with more hitstun and/or a stronger pop up from eating a bacon hit (besides Super Bacon, which is that idea on steroids). Another idea would be to gain a bit of airspeed when using Chef in the air. That would let you follow up on Bacon a bit easier.

 

[Nguz95]

Jtm, You are literally ignoring everything I just posted, and it's making me mad.

Also, lol at people saying nair is a bad move. Come on now.

 

[Paradoxium]

Putting the parachute at the apex of UpB is a terrible idea and extremely gimmicky. I don't know who would ever suggest such a bad idea.

I kind of want his Melee parachute back to be honest. I really don't like that G&W has all of these slow as **** attacks with no real way to land them.(any of his ground smashes) You can dair landing hitbox into fsmash some days, and do the same into nair, but his attacks feel like they require me to make extremely hard reads because they are ALL SLOW. His uair and UpB being frame 1 don't do anything, try jumping at someone with uair and get laughed at. His animations are bothering me severely... His fair sometimes hits on the wind-up when he holds the credit card vertical, sometimes it hits while swinging, there's a part it reaches abnormally far, but only sometimes? And I have absolutely no idea when the move ends because visually you can't tell what it is doing. I want dtilt changed so it doesn't look like the attack is happening before it actually is, it is extremely unpolished and more time has gone into minor things. Same with his chair.

G&W is definitely bad to a certain extent, I want bacon to have the bigger hitboxes again, god forbid he have a good MU against large characters because bacon. That's like saying let's not give characters chain grabs on fastfallers because that's unfair to fastfallers... What?

I'm just being abrasive because why not? I just recently played with A LOT of people from Melee to modern age players today for several hours, and I will play G&W with my hardest might and he just gets beat because I feel like I'm using an inferior character. I can then swith to MK or Lucas or Diddy and either perform significantly better or win. People say G&W's uair is a good combo move.... Look at Metaknight's up air, it hits at pretty much the same speed, covers a larger area, and has less end lag.... Zelda is also super easy to play with imo. She does need some rebalancing and I really can't wait until the new build is ready.

Mewtwo is extremely good. His tail is..... I don't have words to describe something that good. I wish any of my characters had that.... His upsmash hits extremely far to his sides for no apparent reason? The knockback and stun on uncharged shadow balls is ridiculous. I'm not complaining I really like seeing him be good, he is just legitimately too good... That's all I can say.

It sounds like most of this is just due to you not practicing the character enough rather than the character being bad. If you can't tell when certain moves end that's your fault, not the characters.

 

[Deleted member]

yeah like at this point i'd say like 75% of the cast is perfect and shouldn't be changed, and i'd lump GAW into that group. just imo.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I think the game is perfectly fine right now. The consistent changing of things is dumb. It's not like the same characters are over-centralizing the scene. Every top 8 in tourney seems to include a multitude of characters.

 

[IndianapolisCentralGaming]

I think making watch more weave based would be cool he has empty duck which is a thing even at times in melee because You have to fair so low. And if someone tried to get above watch he could threaten with amazing wavelands or bacon cancels.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Further changes are OK as long as they keep getting smaller. Example: Char X is too bad, gets buffed and is OP, but now the PMBR will learn from it and if he isn't balanced next version he is at least more near to it...

 

[IndianapolisCentralGaming]

I think most of us can agree for the most part the pm staff is doing good and getting closer and closer.

But hopefully the final build the worst Charcters in the game have a few positive match-ups that matter and worst is 70-30 and few worst than that throughout the game. That said it's pretty tall order with so many members of the cast and it's hard to tell how the best play of everyone will turn out even if they designed the guide lines.

 

[Soft Serve]

God I hate this thread. Why can't we go back to arguing semantics instead of pointless buffs to a character that doesn't really solve any of his problems. Its just like... I know things stagnate and we can't talk about the "meta" 24/7 especially when there isn't one yet. Whenever a post about the strengths/viability of a character comes up, the whole thread either just ignores it or takes it too far and just talks about what should be changed instead of what aspects of the character should the PLAYERS focus around to get the most out of the character.

70/30 is honestly too polarizing a matchup for my tastes, but having a handful of them is inevitable with such character variety, especially when we have characters who's biggest weakness would be zoning and projectiles, while at the same time we have characters who are built around that concept. Similarly we have characters that fall prey to lingering/disjointed hitboxes, and a large amount of characters that have those.

I love theory-smash just as much as the next guy, but I wish the talk like that that went on around here wasn't "in this hypothetical situation, this characters has horribly limited options" and was more of "this character truly shines when in this hypothetical situation, so we should focus on trying to figure out how to create said situation as much as possible throughout the span of a match."

 

[IndianapolisCentralGaming]

Yeah high level 70-30 is unwinnable or next to like watching armada/m2k as peach vs any top ics player. Might a skill gap but 30-70 is streched stock for stock percent for percent at that point. But not so terrible you throw Your main away for someone better.

 

[jtm94]

Jtm, You are literally ignoring everything I just posted, and it's making me mad.

Also, lol at people saying nair is a bad move. Come on now.

I apologize deeply I did skip over something.

I completely agree with changing landing lag on aerials perhaps, but some already can l-cancel at a relatively ok speed. I am all for helping him out in that aspect, I just really want his attacks to be more intuitive so he h=doesn't have things happen that don't happen with any other characters attacks just not hitting, it is annoying. I really want to see every character completely viable, and I feel he falls a tad short. People clutch onto the fact that they dropped demo from the title so nothing should really be changed. This doesn't need to be immediate, it doesn't need to be this month, but I would like some of it to at least be thought about or relieved eventually. I agree characters should remain untouched for longer to see how they develop, but he's been the same way for a bit and not much has been done with him to justify not trying to help him. The super bacon and weight change was MUCH needed, super bacon didn't need to KO, and he didn't need to weigh the same as Jigglypuff.

I have also had concerns about his tech roll and just roll in general not being good, but those are things I've just wished to bring to light. I have seen people justify Captain Falcon's as well as Squirtles slow tech rolls because they are "offensive" characters, yet spacies have some really decent tech rolls, and so does the majority of the cast? Things like that are weird. And then people say Zelda kicks need nerfed because "the difficulty of landing a move doesn't justify it's strength." And they do need changed, but Ike's fsmash can KO any character at the edge at 40% with no DI, and from the center of Final Destination at 50-60 with GOOD DI? Why not make every slow move hit like a truck? Bowser's fsmash isn't that strong, though he has super armor, but it doesn't reach nearly as far, nor is it disjointed. He already has a host of KO moves and facing it at the edge is hard to punish. I also don't like that Ike has hitboxes covering his body for all of his attacks. I try to punish a wild fsmash, hit him with a non-disjointed attack in the back and I get sucked into the attack? It isn't like he doesn't have ranged attacks and needs body-hitboxes, but why don't other characters cover themselves with hitboxes as they swing or kick or attack?

I absolutely love this game far more than Melee and Brawl. I will continue to play it and most of the cast has been taken care of very well as many have said, but I discuss with others about little inconsistencies that some characters have that just make sense. Like if you play against Ike for the first time you're just supposed to know his body is always a hitbox on his attacks? And why can all of Link's aerials be crouch-cancelled? It isn't like he's crazy aggressive attacking with his superior run speed, but Ivysaur's disjointed forward air cannot be crouch cancelled at ANY %? Something I have seen people get upset about... There are mechanics in the game that aren't normalized yet.