Tier List Speculation

[The_NZA]

The "Pizza Toss" is more suiting.

Hey you! Ness is the pizza toss. Don't you DARE take THAT as well away from us.


****ing Lucas.

 

[Ogopogo]

DK's fully charged B: Banana Slamma

 

[Metazoa]

Marth/Roy USmash: Adam, Prince of Eternia

 

[The_NZA]

Ness/Peach nair is Jazz Hands @Apollo Ali
Ness's bair = showing him the nikes
Mewtwo forward throw = Gravity Squeeze
Mewtwo uthrow = Power overwhelming

 

[jtm94]

Squirlte has the movement to make him really decent.

Hydroplaning can throw someone seriously off. I hear flying accross Final Destination in the air with an attack with super armer or bubble which is disjointed and trips is pretty decent.

And his upsmash is like.... crazy good. I don't know how someone could not see it. If Fox's Upsmash was slower, but reached the top Battlefield platform.

 

[DMG]

They took a scale of 0-100 for the entire character's kill power, and dumped a majority of it into Usmash. Because let's face it, killing with Dsmash and Fsmash with your character is for newbs

 

[Terotrous]

And his upsmash is like.... crazy good. I don't know how someone could not see it. If Fox's Upsmash was slower, but reached the top Battlefield platform.

Yeah, I was playing with him a couple nights ago to research the quality of his tail attacks (serious effort went into that list), and I couldn't get over how much kill power that thing has. It kills at like 100% even on high ceiling stages, god forbid if it's charged.

And of course, it's also a disjoint, so it beats any direct attack coming from the sides. If anyone ever attempts to recover on the stage, kaboom.

 

[GP&B]

Ike
-Fair: Swing your broccoli
-FTilt: Cleaver
-FSmash: MOOOP! (because that's like, what he says)

 

[DMG]

I think the rest of you should quit when it comes to renaming moves

 

[Plum]

Wartortle would make a much better Captain America.
He actually has wing-ears.

 

[DMG]

That's, like, your opinion mayne

 

[FalconBrofist]

HighTier
Everybody

Low but not low enough tier


Low tier

 

[Sashimi]

Yoshis or Links nair the "c-c-c-combo breaker",

Luigi's Nair anyone? Even in Melee it was called this!

Also I don't have a name for this but Yoshi's Dair > Utilt > Utilt repeatedly until they try to DI > Ftilt is the cheese of all cheese.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

"The original juggle" Mewtwos up-air

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

I think you mean GnW, OG SON

Lucas' Up Smash = PK Love

 

[Ogopogo]

Zelda Utilt: Imaginaaaaation
(another one I shamelessly stole from Chad)

 

[DJ _ICE]

Luigi Fsmash: The deadly waiter

Wait wasn't this a tier list thread?

 

[Deleted member]

I think many people underestimate Game and Watch, I placed 17/42 in the return of the Brampton monthlies, I ended up being defeated by a Zelda player but it was neck and neck both at over 120% final stock in the 3rd game...Sadly I missed the ledge sweetspot on my final stock and died.

But seriously I was playing PM only playing game and watch from 2-8 nonstop in 1v1s against random players and I won over 85% of them.

I'm not saying game and watch is top tier or anything but I noticed that so many of the people I played didn't know how to deal with my Nair/Fair edge guarding and short hop reverse Judge.


Now some feedback:

Game and Watch is a incredibly defensive character, I would really like to see them further his gameplay style by removing his frying pan bacon, and instead giving him a counter akin to roy's Down Special. (The Frying Pan already has a firey hitbox anyway).

Something that also makes me mad is that: Game and Watch is the only character in Project M that has a Special that doesn't work against certain characters. His Down Special Bucket does nothing when your fighting a captain falcon, ganon, marth, roy, ect.., and a majority of the ones that do have one you can absorb are hard as hell to get.

Ness and Lucas down specials do damage, just saying....where's the equality?? It would be really amazing if they introduced a new mechanic where if Game and Watch is grabbed while his bucket is out, he does some sort of grab counter and stuns the opponent.

Lastly, in 3.0 I'm pretty sure Game and Watch actually got nerfed, his #3 on Judge doesn't break there entire sheilds, it does like 80% and is rather useless and punishable now, and also his frying pan lost the super jumbo food or whatever it was called.

 

[Rᴏb]

G&W is definitely not a defensive character, he is quite the opposite. He kills fast, racks up damage, but dies very quickly. Sure he can camp pretty hard with bacon, but I find it much more useful to use bacon offensively, kinda like how Falco uses his lasers.

I do agree that his bucket is a bit too situational, but maybe if it could be JCed, that could add something interesting to his movement... I think G&W needs a lot of changes in general to help him cover more options, or maybe just a few drastic ones that people are too scared to give a shot... I don't really feel like getting into that discussion right now.

 

[DMG]

You want G^W... to be focused even MORE on countering people? His Upb is already decent enough to stop silly things from smacking him. Half the character is boring stuff like bacon, dtilt, etc. He doesn't need a Roy counter or a bucket grab stun counter blah blah.

Bacon got nerfed and judge shield damage on 3 + some other aspects about judgement got nerfed iirc. They were both healthy changes.

What G^W needs is better approaching, not more niche and weird counters or janky choices.

Yursaman's got it right kinda. Yeeeee show the world that Nair gif, look at it. It's Hindenburg 2.0

 

[Rᴏb]

I do agree that G&W needs a better approach, but only slightly better. Giving him another trajectory option for his bacon might solve this, and currently holding b to spam bacon is literally useless... Sooooo yeah replace that with a lower trajectory bacon toss and we'll finally be able to approach Marth :D (a little bit better)

A counter is just not needed.

And for the record, I completely support more janky options! His jank is what makes him fun.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Ike
-Fair: Swing your broccoli
-FTilt: Cleaver
-FSmash: MOOOP! (because that's like, what he says)

... How about no

 

[KayB]

G&W is definitely not a defensive character, he is quite the opposite. He kills fast, racks up damage, but dies very quickly. Sure he can camp pretty hard with bacon, but I find it much more useful to use bacon offensively, kinda like how Falco uses his lasers.

G&W plays a pretty decent defensive game. Since G&W lacks some pretty crucial approaching options, sometimes he's forced to play more of a defensive/camping/baiting style. G&W goes ham once he gets a hit on an enemy, but pressure generally isn't G&W's thing. It's possible to pull off, but it's gimmicky and risky since a lot of his moves are slow/punishable, and his multi-hit bair can be Oos'd by quite a few characters and has limited cross-up potential on shield. He has a lot of combo starters that also work as effective defensive options (ex. d-tilt, up-b) and his wavedash is long enough where it can be used flexibly out of shield especially combined with his d-tilt. He's an offensive character, but he does implement defensive strategies from time to time.

 

[Terotrous]

I feel like GW is hurt by the loss of his Brawl Nair (Tropical Fish). I get that Parachute is badass, but I'd much rather dump Uair for it than Nair, particularly since Uair no longer has that janky wind effect.

I also really miss Brawl Dair. Short hop Dair stuffs any reckless approach, since you can quickly disappear from a spot and then immediately attack it, punishing anyone who goes in too hard (and in PM, a lot of characters go in real hard). I guess you can still kinda do this with fast fall but it's not nearly as quick as it was.

Overall I feel like he's one of the only characters who feels worse than his Brawl counterpart (recovery also got way nerfed, but obviously Bucket Braking had to go and I kind of get the loss of Parachute on Fire), which seems unfair as he wasn't especially high tier in Brawl to begin with.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

I'll take a DACUS, DACGrab, improved D-Tilt, Combo Capable U-air, Parachute, 50/50 DI Trap with his Juggle, and improved techs, emptying Oil Panic early, and D-air which you can Waveland out of fullhops over the few things he lost from Brawl that weren't even all that amazing to begin with.

I personally think this GnW is better than Brawls, the problem here is that he still does have some flaws and this game has a lot of good characters.

 

[jtm94]

I absolutely hate that G&W has animations for his moves that seem like they are attacking, but they aren't at all. Like Fair going through the opponent, same with dair, dtilt and ftilt. Dtilt comes out but doesn't hit the moment it comes out which I don't understand why this hasn't been changed, but things like Link's Nair got "polished" to not linger.

I just don't like that G&W has an amazing juggle game with uair, but uair leads into NOTHING at moderate percent, and doesn't star KO unless you are INSIDE THE BLAST ZONE, at like... 100%. Pokemon stadium is the only kind of exception.

I like his landing hitboxes, they are super neat, and bair isn't bad, but fair feels incredibly clunky to land and just overall bad to approach with. I still don't like bacon especially against sword characters, but he already has a terribly bad MU vs anyone with a sword.

 

[SpiderMad]

I feel like GW is hurt by the loss of his Brawl Nair (Tropical Fish). I get that Parachute is badass, but I'd much rather dump Uair for it than Nair, particularly since Uair no longer has that janky wind effect.

obviously Bucket Braking had to go and I kind of get the loss of Parachute on Fire).

I thought Up-air still has a wind effect? Doesn't Bucket braking still exist in lesser form? Parachute on Fire what?

 

[Nguz95]

Bucket braking still exists. If you crouch cancel any hit you can still halt your momentum with the bucket.

G&W does not need that many changes. Nair is his primary kill move, as it finishes people at crazy low % and it has enough disjoint to eat through almost all recoveries.

Uair is essential to his combo game. Not all his aerials need to be kill aerials, and uair gives him the juggling capability that he desperately needed. It's also his fastest aerial. He can opt out of the second hit and the ground hitbox retreat, making it incredibly safe.

Bacon is fine the way it is. Changing the trajectory doesn't do anything, as sword characters can still cut through it in the air. Bacon is better at pushing advantageous positions than breaking neutral. You can extend combos, set up edgeguards, and hit people on platforms with bacon. Just spamming it from neutral isn't going to do you any good.

Having the super fast fall dair sounds nice, but it's actually not that helpful. Currently dair has three hitboxes: the initial meteor, the lasting hitbox, and a landing hitbox. The landing hitbox is crucial for setting up juggles, and it provides enough hitstun to leag into usmash on nearly everyone. Dair has enormous utility with these three hitboxes, and adding the super fast fall will force one of them to be removed (probably the landing hitbox). Additionally, the super fast fall doesn't add anything to his game. It will catch some people by surprise at first, but G&W is not nearly as fast as Sonic and Metaknight, which means that getting away after using it to get back on the ground will not be any easier than before. Additionally, without the third hitbox dair becomes a poor oos option, as you lose most of your followups. The main hitbox often hits too far away to be of use. The landing hitbox allows you to apply ahield pressure while also setting up on people when you do hit with it.

 

[guedes the brawler]

I think many people underestimate Game and Watch, I placed 17/42 in the return of the Brampton monthlies, I ended up being defeated by a Zelda player but it was neck and neck both at over 120% final stock in the 3rd game...Sadly I missed the ledge sweetspot on my final stock and died.

But seriously I was playing PM only playing game and watch from 2-8 nonstop in 1v1s against random players and I won over 85% of them.

I'm not saying game and watch is top tier or anything but I noticed that so many of the people I played didn't know how to deal with my Nair/Fair edge guarding and short hop reverse Judge.


Now some feedback:

Game and Watch is a incredibly defensive character, I would really like to see them further his gameplay style by removing his frying pan bacon, and instead giving him a counter akin to roy's Down Special. (The Frying Pan already has a firey hitbox anyway).

Something that also makes me mad is that: Game and Watch is the only character in Project M that has a Special that doesn't work against certain characters. His Down Special Bucket does nothing when your fighting a captain falcon, ganon, marth, roy, ect.., and a majority of the ones that do have one you can absorb are hard as hell to get.

Ness and Lucas down specials do damage, just saying....where's the equality?? It would be really amazing if they introduced a new mechanic where if Game and Watch is grabbed while his bucket is out, he does some sort of grab counter and stuns the opponent.

Lastly, in 3.0 I'm pretty sure Game and Watch actually got nerfed, his #3 on Judge doesn't break there entire sheilds, it does like 80% and is rather useless and punishable now, and also his frying pan lost the super jumbo food or whatever it was called.

Can't one use the Bucket to momentum cancel things?

 

[Ogopogo]

I absolutely hate that G&W has animations for his moves that seem like they are attacking, but they aren't at all..

This is exactly the reason I used to have a lot of trouble with G&W (I still kinda do). Wario has the same thing to a lesser extent: jerky sudden movements that can be surprising if you aren't very familiar with G&W's options and windup animations.

 

[Paradoxium]

Anyone see KDJ's Zelda at smashing grounds? I mean people are always saying Zelda is a Defensive campy character but KDJ was playing the opposite, he was so aggressive and all over the place

 

[Nausicaa]

Zelda Utilt: Imaginaaaaation
(another one I shamelessly stole from Chad)

It's quite commonly known as the 'Walt Disney' too, so that's pretty cool.

Why U-Air with G&W when you can just Up-B for cooler stuff anyway?

The Jank, is indeed what makes G&W da bess.

 

[Rᴏb]

Generally, I wouldn't classify his bait and punish game as defensive... G&W's bait and punish game is very fun and is something that should be expanded upon in the next patch imo. Maybe let G&W dash out of his ground based moves after a certain frame? This would give him the option of either baiting his opponent to run into his lingering hitboxes, or baiting his opponent to try and punish your long lasting moves only to have G&W dash out of the way and follow up with a punish of his own. This would really help him against sword users.

Bacon is fine the way it is. Changing the trajectory doesn't do anything, as sword characters can still cut through it in the air. Bacon is better at pushing advantageous positions than breaking neutral. You can extend combos, set up edgeguards, and hit people on platforms with bacon. Just spamming it from neutral isn't going to do you any good.

I don't agree with this. We have the ability to add an option that could potentially aid G&W's approach and yet people don't want to jump on this! If holding b gave him a low enough bacon trajectory and maybe even killed all of G&W's upward momentum (like how chef funtioned in melee), we would be able to bait sword users to cut bacon from the ground, which would generally be slower than cutting bacon with an aerial and give us a better opportunity to punish afterward. In my opinion, bacon is good at overpowering the opponent's neutral game and the only time this isn't the case is when they have a direct answer to it (swords, speed, armor, etc.) Spamming bacon from neutral is like a worse version of Falco's lasers because of the current trajectory, but this certainly doesn't mean it is bad. I want to maintain the current uses of bacon while also giving it some more uses akin to Falco's lasers...

Janky buffs like the ones I just mentioned are far more interesting and have to potential to really add more depth to G&W's playstyle rather than simply increasing damage, speed, range, or how long hitboxes last. For example, people complain that dtilt doesn't last long enough. If we made it last longer, that would make the move absolutely better, but wouldn't really add anything else to the character... I guess what I'm trying to say is, most of the tools G&W has now are great and shouldn't be changed, we just need more to work with.

Why U-Air with G&W when you can just Up-B for cooler stuff anyway?

Use them in tandem and you're gold.

 

[Zwarm]

I'd MM any Squirtle on God's Green Earth

I play Marth, have fun

Nah I got this, Marth =/= easy win on Squirtle

 

[DMG]

Let's not buff bacon/projectiles any more gentlemen. Make a character good before you make the projectile good.

I should run for president

Marth should be an easy win on Squirtle, unless you pick the biggest stage possible and pretend to be Jiggs/Wario

That's probably your best option with Squirtle anyways. Approaching bad

 

[Rᴏb]

>What G^W needs is better approaching
>*Proposes idea that fulfills this*
>It's a projectile so no

That's boomerang level of silly.

Do you really think there would be any repercussions? And even if there were any, could they not be fixed by adjusting landing lag?

 

[JOE!]

Let's not buff bacon/projectiles any more gentlemen. Make a character good before you make the projectile good.

 

[Jmook11]

Once everyone is used to the Brawl characters in Melee gameplay, there will be a lot better understanding of the tier list....

 

[DMG]

****in Falco shootin things

 

[KayB]

Overall I feel like he's one of the only characters who feels worse than his Brawl counterpart

Nerf? PM was designed to be closer to Melee and very far from Brawl. You can't exactly "nerf" a character when the gameplay styles are so different.