Tier List Speculation

[GHNeko]

AND IT BEGINS.

>Sonic
>E Tier

lol wat.

Whyyyyyy? His normals got improved so much loool.


Edit: Honestly, any tier list imo that has anything lower than a C tier should be rethought haha.

</pmbrbalance>

 

[Deleted member]

Ya, honestly any character can easily beat another pretty much. Sonic is E Tier because he can be too easily predicted.

 

[GHNeko]

....you think so?

Well. We'll just have to agree to disagree there haha.

 

[`dazrin]

*sigh*
Rob, I'm going to slap you for remaking this thread.

Anyways, I'm going to hold off from jumping the gun and making a tierlist before any tournaments even happened yet. But I will say that no one in this game is below B tier. No one is worse than melee ICs.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm not saying that E Tier is bad at all. Ya nobody is worse than Melee ICs.

 

[GHNeko]

*sigh*
Rob, I'm going to slap you for remaking this thread.

Anyways, I'm going to hold off from jumping the gun and making a tierlist before any tournaments even happened yet. But I will say that no one in this game is below B tier. No one is worse than melee ICs.

Agreed for the most part. I feel that if there has to be a C tier.

It should probably be one or two characters, and there has to be a defining reason.

 

[Shell]

I have a proposal that I think would be both easy and effective:

First, run a poll for 1 week on the top 8 (~25%) characters. List all 34 characters and each person inputs 8 they think are in the top 8. No averaging work for the OP, all automatic. Order isn't factored in, but I don't think it could be or should be right now. Rough ordering could be loosely derived from the frequency of a character's selection, if really needed.

Second, run a poll for 1 week on the bottom 8 characters. The remaining middle slots are going to be largely inconsequential and hotly debated anyways, and can be roughly deduced from the results of the first two polls.

Alternatively, if it's possible to run two polls at once just do that, heh.

The resulting division into (orderless) A, B, and C tiers wouldn't be an accurate reflection of their potential by any means, but would rather be an interesting benchmark to look back on release when this process is repeated in another 3-4 months. How did the list change? Was character X really as good/bad as we all thought on release?

If OP likes this idea feel free to get the polls rolling.

 

[Translucent]

I think Squirtle will get close to it once people's erections for him goes away.

My love for that slippery sexy ninja turtle will never end. <3

 

[GunBlaze]

My love for that slippery sexy ninja turtle will never end. <3

Agreed, brotha

 

[BJN39]

Well, I'll place my current thoughts on placement, but my opinion will change when i've seen more of 2.5.

The separation (using +/- tiers) to me means very close, but a tiny bit better/worse. Even then the space between tiers isn't that big to me regardless. Note I also believe C tier in P:M is a bit better than Melee C tier.

[COLLAPSE="List"]
S tier:
/
A tier:
/ /
B+ tier:

B tier:

C+ tier:

C tier:

C- tier:
///
[/COLLAPSE]

 

[Translucent]

Hmmmm...

I can't really see Wario or Toon Link being that low...

I don't have much opinion on other characters yet though, other than Mario is pretty damn high, and Snake is a bit too high.

 

[trash?]

From 2.1, the only real consensus for bad characters were Wario, G&W and Charizard -- even then, people argued for wario constantly.

I don't think arguing for tier lists so early is exactly the most healthy concept. Though I am going to say right now, Pikachu is still a sleeper top tier like he was in 2.1. Shame only two people (I can think of, at least) play him well.

 

[Nintendude]

Ike and Bowser are both high tier imo, below Fox, Falco, and Jigglypuff at the very least. Lucario, Peach, Mario, and Wolf are probably also high tier. ROB is mid or high. Dedede, Ness, and Sonic are low.

 

[Archangel]

It's called..speculations.

Speculation - to meditate on or ponder a subjectp; expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence. To review something idly or casually and often inconclusively.

 

[Scythe]

This game needs to be out for like another year before you could even make a tier list, most people don't even know what characters are capable yet. We need some big tournaments.

 

[Yobolight]

*sigh*
Rob, I'm going to slap you for remaking this thread.

Anyways, I'm going to hold off from jumping the gun and making a tierlist before any tournaments even happened yet. But I will say that no one in this game is below B tier. No one is worse than melee ICs.

So to clearly differentiate should start with tons of S's like this?

SSSS: Fox
SSS: Sheik
SS: Ike
S: Bowser
A: Dedede
B: Game and Watch

 

[Master WGS]

The argument for "no one is bottom tier" is a dumb argument of semantics. If everyone in a class had a 4.0 GPA except one guy who had a 3.9, he'd still be the bottom of the class. "Bottom" doesn't mean awful, it just means lower than everyone else. Don't get your panties into a knot, guys.

Same goes for "no one's lower than B Tier." You're missing the point. We're not comparing to Melee directly and saying tiers mean the same thing.

Also, everyone saying "It's too early," lighten up - we know. The point is to SPECULATE, not form an official list of any sort. Shoot out your opinion and generate discussion rather than trying to shut down the conversation entirely.

I miss my thread when you weren't allowed to speak beyond posting your list, and it was just about gauging public opinion rather than trying to form a coherent list like a bunch of babbling children.

 

[Wretched]

I can tell this game will be good because someone put Sonic at top tier and then someone put him at the bottom.

That just shows you how balanced they made the characters.

 

[Stunts]

I find it cute that everybody thinks Game is still a bad P:M character. If anything he can wreckaspacie

 

[BJN39]

I find it cute that everybody thinks Game is still a bad P:M character. If anything he can wreckaspacie

Well, when I see more G&W doing good or being good i'll change my mind. But he hasn't done much yet, the game has only been out for about a week.

And I think others would/will too. With other chars as well.

Also, I agree with erverything WGS said.

 

[Scythe]

I've played GaW a lot and he's got some good things going for him but compared to the rest of the cast he is definitely at the bottom.

 

[Limeee]

does anyone else feel like ganon should be bottom tier?

its awkward to make tierlists for this game because were used to bottom tier being unviable and now bottom tier is decently close to the melee gods
but i really do enjoy the speculation

 

[jalued]

I feel that any most characters could be argued low tier. I think the best idea is what was mentioned before, a live poll where people can vote for their top highest or lowest character.

 

[QWA]

I feel like Sheik isn't as good as in Melee, but it's probably because I haven't gotten used to her in P.M. yet, her needles don't eat other projectiles, and the d-throw's new PAL trajectory. I still need to try using the Chain Jacket glitch as well, I wonder how that will affect her play style. She's the only character I can say I know anything about right now, so I'm not going to try and critique any other characters right now.

 

[Garzal]

Everyone needs to stop hating on D3. Ike gets top tier for his range but D3 doesn't? Pleeeease. He may not be able to get in, but just try to get in on him.

 

[Blarg I'm Dead]

I see a lot of "Wahh stopping hating *character*" and not enough "lolno. He 2 gud I got 10 reasons why..."

 

[bubbaking]

This was supposed to go on Smashmods, but oh well...

Honestly, any tier list imo that has anything lower than a C tier should be rethought haha.

</pmbrbalance>

Dat developer arrogance. You probably sound like Sakurai now.

 

[DMG]

The previous posts have largely been "x character is high tier". What characters do people view as low tier?

Ness and G^W are still pretty subpar. TL is ok, Luigi and Pikachu are also kinda whatever (they aren't bad, certainly improved from Melee, but they don't stand out compared to some of the newcomers or really buffed characters). I'm not a ROB fan either.

*sigh*
Rob, I'm going to slap you for remaking this thread.

Anyways, I'm going to hold off from jumping the gun and making a tierlist before any tournaments even happened yet. But I will say that no one in this game is below B tier. No one is worse than melee ICs.

This is somewhat bull Daze lol. This G^W and this Ness are worse clearly than Melee IC's. Characters around the bottom five I'd rather have Melee Ganon Samus IC's etc. That's just on a comparative power level. If we're talking competitive threat level, I'd say the list that fails to meet that area might even be expanded a bit due to how many "solid" new or revamp characters there have been. You guys are doing a fantastic job, but don't tell me everyone is better or equal to the Melee top 10, because it ain't true. We aren't there yet.

Well, when I see more G&W doing good or being good i'll change my mind. But he hasn't done much yet, the game has only been out for about a week.

And I think others would/will too. With other chars as well.

Also, I agree with erverything WGS said.

G^W just needs something to work. Something that flows or connects like traditional Melee. He's got strong attacks and range, but doesn't combo very smoothly. You don't keep people close enough to tack on damage, you swat them away like a brick wall. What I'm surprised has stuck were his atrocious defensive options, like his spotdodge frame data or tech rolls. Nobody should be saddled with them (even if you argue what's the point of spotdodging when you have Upb OOS).

I've played GaW a lot and he's got some good things going for him but compared to the rest of the cast he is definitely at the bottom.

Def bot 5, very few characters I could place under him. He almost feels out of place in the game besides his edge guarding or fairly decent throw game. I dunno what they are gonna do with him, changing his core design might turn off the few players he has.

 

[OkamiBW]

My opinion after playing a lot of Project M.

Spoiler

S Tier:

A Tier:

B Tier:

C Tier:

D Tier:

E Tier:

Ordered them in the order of each too. So I ordered it:
1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Squirtle

etc.

I have a proposal that I think would be both easy and effective:

First, run a poll for 1 week on the top 8 (~25%) characters. List all 34 characters and each person inputs 8 they think are in the top 8. No averaging work for the OP, all automatic. Order isn't factored in, but I don't think it could be or should be right now. Rough ordering could be loosely derived from the frequency of a character's selection, if really needed.

Second, run a poll for 1 week on the bottom 8 characters. The remaining middle slots are going to be largely inconsequential and hotly debated anyways, and can be roughly deduced from the results of the first two polls.

Alternatively, if it's possible to run two polls at once just do that, heh.

The resulting division into (orderless) A, B, and C tiers wouldn't be an accurate reflection of their potential by any means, but would rather be an interesting benchmark to look back on release when this process is repeated in another 3-4 months. How did the list change? Was character X really as good/bad as we all thought on release?

If OP likes this idea feel free to get the polls rolling.

Like. Will start something.

Update on Method of Coming to Some Sort of Consensus*

*Once again, I feel the need to state that it isn't official, but rather just an idea as to what the general community feels about each character.

-If you give me your own personal tier list, I will place it into my Excel Spreadsheet with your username and list of 33 characters in order. I'm going to ignore Top/High/etc. and just put it into numerical order.
-This means you do not have to edit your original tier list post. Just re-post it and I will know based on your username whether I am making a new column or just updating an old one.
-I am ignoring Shielda as a character despite her utility. No arguments on this. ^_^
-Putting SHeLL's idea into action. Poll will run for a bit as to what the top 8 characters are.**

**When possible...apparently the thread maker cannot make the topics polls unless it's within the last 24 hours?

 

[Juushichi]

Sounds good.

As a GnW player, I am kinda going "ehhhh" when people put him comparatively low, but DMG brings up good points where Watch could definitely struggle. He is at his best against the floaties and the lighter characters and might have some things against FFers, but he'll really struggle putting away those mid-weights (like Mario) and for characters that outrange him (like Marth).

 

[Strong Badam]

Okami: Only moderators can add polls, fairly sure.

 

[Dubforce]

Honestly I think most characters can be played very well. I don't know if theres even really any point in a tier list for P:M, unless the dev's really just CAN'T bring themselves to nerf the melee top tiers. If thats the case then there is an easy solution.

Official PM Tier List (Assuming the Dev's dont nerf the melee top tiers)
S: Fox, Falco, Ike, Pink Squirtle
A: Every other Melee Top tier
B: Everyone else

In all seriousness I lack necessary knowledge about all of the characters different options and techniques. Therefore I can't really say what a tier list would look like.

Of course, I know fox and falco are dumb. Also I think there are some character that stick out (to me) in 2.5. Squirtle, Ivy, Zss, Snake, Ike, Link, Tink and sonic to list a few. I think every character is viable at this point.

My unfamiliarity with these character's options causes me to believe they are low tiered:
Zelda, GnW, D3, Luigi, R.O.B., Wolf. Remember, these are just characters I lack control of and therefore feel they aren't as powerful as others.

 

[DMG]

He just has a hard time making his strong points work, or they don't mesh well together. He doesn't have any decent ways to combo into a Smash besides on FF's, his usual killing aerials send people more diagonally up than he'd probably like, the attacks that linger tend to linger too much, etc. His positives all tend to have an accompanying downside that's not good. Oh this kills good? Startup. This move lingers? Won't be very safe on shield. XYZ move gets them away from you? Good, but now you can't combo them.


It's frustrating playing him when you KNOW exactly where xyz Mario (or "easy" combo character) combo starts, ends, what random hits you can pull it off from, the variations you can add in like different moves/how platforms affect it/changes based on DI or character... etc and very few of those apply to G^W. Besides the obvious vertical setups, there aren't "I tipped with Fair so I get a free Dair spike always" during the middle of combo's moments.


There are the usual and understood "Here's my gimping here's my best answer against most approaches" but there's a hard time naturally flowing and linking his attacks together in meaningful ways when compared to a lot of characters in the cast. You tend to maybe get a launch or two, get a Nair or Fair, and you're done. On FF's alone, more vertical juggling which isn't bad. Except on FF's where this transition might set up for a quick edge guard, that's not a strong punish compared to what a lot of the cast can do, and is almost like resetting the situation with a small edge for G^W, while he can still die quickly and from 1 touch because his opponent's character is geared towards it better. G^W combo does 30% (maybe bit low, say 40%), Falcon combo or tech chase or xyz will usually do more with less effort. Etc


On the strictly negative side, being light weight with a bad horizontal recovery AND being sorta bad at getting out of combos (besides Upb, which is OK) doesn't pair well. Good vertical recovery but using it at lower heights also gives people a ton of time to react to it. Poor grab range makes it harder to take advantage of his pretty decent throw game, and on a more minor note the moves you're likely to land on opponents barring CC dtilts don't set up into grabs very well. His shield pressure is overall poor: his ability to poke at his longer reach IS good but his ability to get up close and threaten you or close the gap with a multi hit move/solid frame data move doesn't exist. He's not Shiek Fair or Nairing your shield, or doing aerial to jab mixups that work for other characters. His overall startup on moves has got to be higher than the cast average, and his defensive options are not cutting it. Spotdodge Rolls and Tech roll frame data/distance are lacking, which sucks for a character that cannot afford to eat punishment.


He can be really fun to play, especially vs Fast Fallers because that's the 1 main time you FEEL like a Melee character you combo launch and edge guard the balls off of them. But vs the cast as a whole, he doesn't feel very "Melee". He's confusing and conflicting and just wants to Knee around the field like the rest of us but can't.

 

[Dante']

My prediction for Zero Suit Samus is that she will be comfortably in the upper-mid area. She doesn't come off as exceptional, but she definitely feels solid.

 

[TheDevicer]

But I get the feeling it'll take at least a few months for us to see ZSS get the attention and dedication she deserves. I'm really warming up to her. She seems mad fun and capable of some mighty fine tricksies...

 

[Dubforce]

But I get the feeling it'll take at least a few months for us to see ZSS get the attention and dedication she deserves. I'm really warming up to her. She seems mad fun and capable of some mighty fine tricksies...

This. The only character I like more than her at this point is squirtle...and lets face it, squirtle is the best.

 

[TheDevicer]

I personally predict Squirtle will receive better initial results but ZSS players will eventually turn it around. I feel like Squirtle's limited range really hurts him.

 

[Translucent]

I feel that a lot of the hype for Squirtle is because he is new and cute. I think a lot of people will play him now, but some will turn away from him in a while. I think that he will be able to always do well, but not one of the top 5 characters.

That being said, I love Squirtle<3.

 

[Dubforce]

I personally predict Squirtle will receive better initial results but ZSS players will eventually turn it around. I feel like Squirtle's limited range really hurts him.

Limited range? Bubble beats out marth man. What more range do we need? I mean, sure a lot of his moves are short, but if he has a tough MU because of range, he can just be an ******* with bubble all match.

 

[cannedbread]

before anyone says that squirtle has bad range i want to say that mobility/speed should almost always equal range in every respect

squirtle has high mobility so he def has lots of range