Tier List Speculation

[Dubforce]

before anyone says that squirtle has bad range i want to say that mobility/speed should almost always equal range in every respect

squirtle has high mobility so he def has lots of range

I disagree with you here. Other characters with more range have similar mobility. The reason squirtle's range doesn't affect him much is because of his natural ability to use his mobility to get in. Withdraw, dsmash, shellshift > JC grab, and shellshift > sidesmash really shine here.

 

[Wretched]

His wavedash is ridiculous. Somebody bring it up already.

We've seen in the past that mobility is more important than range, so as soon as people understand how to space his aerials and control him a little bit more, that won't be a complaint. He is a really fresh, fast character, so he is going to take some getting used to.

Just based on other Melee characters, Squirtle can and will be high/top. I am almost sure of that. He has some great mix ups along with high mobility, high comboability, great aerials, a good~? recovery, and he is small. We already know these kinds of things are a formula to success in a Melee environment.

 

[Dubforce]

Just based on other Melee characters, Squirtle can and will be high/top. I am almost sure of that. He has some great mix ups along with high mobility, high comboability, great aerials, a good~? recovery, and he is small. We already know these kinds of things are a formula to success in a Melee environment.

Well you are forgetting one thing. Squirtle is INSANELY light. What really light character in melee did really well? Its exactly like you said. Its the luigi effect.

Luigi: Good combat, good mixups, good mobility, GREAT gimps, small, good aerials. But his recovery is weak and hes too light.

These things will limit squirtle, no matter what. He is just way too killable. We'll see what happens over time, but offensive options aside I think squirlte is pretty easily killable and therefore won't be very good after the meta has evolved.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

this thread is amusing

 

[Wretched]

These things will limit squirtle, no matter what. He is just way too killable. We'll see what happens over time, but offensive options aside I think squirlte is pretty easily killable and therefore won't be very good after the meta has evolved.

Jigglypuff dies at like 50% rofl
She does okay.

I don't disagree with the rest of what you said, but I think Squirtle has a lot more potential than weegee >.>;

I dunno why we're comparing them, but Squirtle has a better recovery, MUCH better combos, a long but more controllable wavedash, a shorter short hop (so important omg), a good gimp move, and more approach options. Not to mention he has way more mixups than weegee. Its not even a contest for me.

 

[Dubforce]

Jigglypuff dies at like 50% rofl
She does okay.

I don't disagree with the rest of what you said, but I think Squirtle has a lot more potential than weegee >.>;

I dunno why we're comparing them, but Squirtle has a better recovery, MUCH better combos, a long but more controllable wavedash, a shorter short hop (so important omg), a good gimp move, and more approach options. Not to mention he has way more mixups than weegee. Its not even a contest for me.

Squirtle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> luigi.

I wasn't really comparing them, just using luigi to say, "Yeah, squirtle is OP, but he still has some things limiting him." Personally I think luigi sucks, and squirtle is my main lol. So that should show you I meant nothing about them being the same, just that they had similar things limiting them.

 

[DvarakElt]

Seriously. You guys might be approaching this level of accuracy:

If you are lucky.
Give it a few months before we call any character good or bad. I'm not even sure the spacies are at the top any more... This game squeezes all the characters into the range between C.Falcon and Fox in melee. (In the current tier list not the one I posted.) Lets give it a few months.

 

[JKJ]

^^^
this
looooooooolll
look at jiggs sittin at 17 next to ness
and mario, zelda, samus, and luigi as 5-8
loooll

 

[bubbaking]

Canned is right. Look at Fox.

Hey, at least the Melee community recognized that Sheik and the spacees were godly back then, and all of those bottom tier chars are still at the bottom; they just have more company now.

For anyone saying that no one is worse than Melee ICs, I personally think you're crazy. I'd concede that kind of label if you were basing off of Melee Ganon or Samus, but not ICs. P:M G&W is still worse than Melee ICs. He's just better than Melee G&W (and P:M v2.1 G&W).

@OkamiBW: How will you put ties into your excel spreadsheet analysis?

 

[bubbaking]

Sorry, accidental double post.

 

[Vashimus]

Having high mobility =/= having good range. Look at Pikachu.

Luckily, Squirtle has great aerials, a long wavedash, Withdraw, and Shell Shift to make approaching much easier, and he doesn't have much of a problem killing or gimping. But his recovery is, as Bubbaking put it, "Falco terribad". I honestly don't know where to put him. But swords must give him nightmares.

 

[TheDevicer]

^This. Pika isn't terrible and has a bunch of things going for him, but that isn't enough to boost him to the point where he'd be considered a threat. And to top it off, Pika's also got a long recovery that can easily be mixed up. Mobility is a great asset to have, don't get me wrong, but you'll fall flat on your face if you don't have the ability to space safely. I honestly feel like Marth will give squirtle a headache.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Squirtle's bad range doesn't affect his ability to land attacks, but it does affect his ability to be safe. His mobility is not superior to everyone else by enough to really justify it. At best he can hope to power through stuff with withdraw.

 

[Eaode]

In my opinion squirtle needs to be tricky and use his mobility in unique ways to look for openings. His low traction really helps, but I feel like he also needs platforms to work in his favor (I think FD is a bad stage for him)

He has more ground movement options than any other character (I think? DD, WD, SS, Withdraw, Moonwalking, etc), So I feel like his approach is much more about mixups and fakeouts than straight up abusing mobility.

 

[T44]

I think people are underestimating ivysuar a bit. I'm not saying he should be top tier or anything but he has good spacing options with fair/bair as well as good ledguarding options (bair ***** chars with linear recovery). He can also shut down approaches decently with his projectiles and aerials.

 

[bubbaking]

Samus had all of those things in Melee and was still a mediocre character.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Samus had all of those things in Melee and was still a mediocre character.

^^ this

Ivy is definitely a cool character, and will likely see a ton of use up until the point when people figure out how to shut her down. But it's likely that she will end up making her home somewhere in the middle of the tier list as a character who is totally usable, but not optimal.

 

[Vashimus]

To be fair, Ivysaur has better combo ability than Samus, along with Solar Beam and Power Whip for finishers, so she's not a slouch in that department. But yeah, right now it think it's just the excitement of the new characters that have her talked about more. She'll be mid at best I'm sure.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Samus' charged shot is pretty comparable to Solar Beam, and she's not entirely without combos either.

 

[Vashimus]

It was still below average by Melee standards.

Regardless, Ivy's defensive playstyle makes her quite vulnerable in the P:M environment. At least Samus has high survivabity. Does anybody know what Ivy's weight is?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Her recovery is also pretty linear, which I guess is just the standard for a lot of chars in PM (although hers is pretty much the same as in Brawl, but superior in every way). Samus, on the other hand, can recover pretty much any way she wants.

 

[Deleted member]

On the SmashMods forums i kept an average of every one's lists. I will probably do the same on here for demo 2.5. Here is Demo 2.1's averages:

Spoiler

S+
1. Fox

2. Falco

S
3. Sheilda

S-
4. Sheik

5. Mario

A+
6. Peach

7. Marth

A
8. Ike

9. Jigglypuff

B+
10. Lucario

11. Link

B
12. Ganondorf

13. Zelda

B-
14. Captain Falcon

15. Wolf

C+
16. Pit

17. Bowser

18. Toon Link

C
19. Snake

20. Pikachu

C-
21. Donkey Kong

22. Lucas

23. Luigi

24. King Dedede

25. Sonic

D+
26. Wario

27. ROB

D
28. Ness

29. Charizard

D-
30. Game & Watch

 

[Deleted member]

I also made another tier list with the same data, but excluded outliers. Here is what that list looks like:

Notice how there are less tiers in this list. I feel that this is the more accurate of the 2 lists.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I also made another tier list with the same data, but excluded outliers. Here is what that list looks like:

Notice how there are less tiers in this list. I feel that this is the more accurate of the 2 lists.

i kinda like this list, but a few things kind of confuse me.

For instance, what is it that makes the melee vets who are above jiggs move up above her? Like, Mario being a fusion of Mario/Doc's best traits gives him an obvious boost, but why's he that high up there? Why's Peach all the way up there? Are the people who made those lists just underestimating jiggs/overestimating others, or did something actually change to affect Jigg's MUs? Young Link is no longer in the metagame. What's messing with her these days? Are there just no people playing her? Newer characters messing with her?

Same thing for Marth, what happened to Peach and Mario to bring them up above him like that? I can guess at stuff for Mario, but I'm honestly completely in the dark when it comes to Peach. Are there new chars messing with Marth?

 

[Jolteon]

Seriously. You guys might be approaching this level of accuracy:

If you are lucky.
Give it a few months before we call any character good or bad. I'm not even sure the spacies are at the top any more... This game squeezes all the characters into the range between C.Falcon and Fox in melee. (In the current tier list not the one I posted.) Lets give it a few months.

Let's see if people can still get the Top 3 correct.

 

[KayB]

I'm pretty sure Fox and Falco are still Top 2. I would put my money on Sheik being the 3rd best, but by a small amount, followed by Mario and Marth.

Also, I haven't been playing 2.5 lately due to lack of time, but does anyone else kind of find it hard to land with ZSS' dair? Might be just me.

 

[Wretched]

Fox and Falco being put on top so quickly
Rofl

I know it is speculation, but the reality is that most people are basing this decision off of the fact that people already know how to play Fox and Falco. Of course they're going to seem good in a new game where people already know exactly how to play them.

That's why Ryu and Akuma exert such dominance in Street Fighter when a new game is released, regardless of the potential of other characters.

 

[BJN39]

I also made another tier list with the same data, but excluded outliers. Here is what that list looks like:

Notice how there are less tiers in this list. I feel that this is the more accurate of the 2 lists.

Zelda at 15!? No... no no....

Well, at least zelda received mostly good changes, I speculate that zelda WILL be high tier even if this list shows otherwise.

Besides, this is a 2.1 list.

 

[Deleted member]

Zelda has not changed since 2.1. People will just argue about how the character they main should be higher.

I agree 100% with the Unofficial Tier List.

 

[BJN39]

Zelda has not changed since 2.1. People will just argue about how the character they main should be higher.

I agree 100% with the Unofficial Tier List.

Actually you're wrong. Zelda has received plenty of little changes that will very slightly make her better. I posted an unoffical changelist of things i've discovered in the Zelda GD.

Also I could try to argue that zelda is good but i'll just waste time when people might think i'm just boosting my main.

 

[Deleted member]

Zelda at 15!? No... no no....

Well, at least zelda received mostly good changes, I speculate that zelda WILL be high tier even if this list shows otherwise.

Besides, this is a 2.1 list.

Where do you think Zelda should be?

i kinda like this list, but a few things kind of confuse me.

For instance, what is it that makes the melee vets who are above jiggs move up above her? Like, Mario being a fusion of Mario/Doc's best traits gives him an obvious boost, but why's he that high up there? Why's Peach all the way up there? Are the people who made those lists just underestimating jiggs/overestimating others, or did something actually change to affect Jigg's MUs? Young Link is no longer in the metagame. What's messing with her these days? Are there just no people playing her? Newer characters messing with her?

Same thing for Marth, what happened to Peach and Mario to bring them up above him like that? I can guess at stuff for Mario, but I'm honestly completely in the dark when it comes to Peach. Are there new chars messing with Marth?

I like this post a lot.
I think Jiggs is just underplayed being the 8th least played character in 2.1. Also Jiggs especially has new threats and some young link-type characters. Pit, Tink, Zelda, Link, and Ike come to my mind as potential threats. I think Jiggs is going to drop from her 3rd spot in Melee, but is still a HUGE threat. I have her at 6th.
But, the main thing i disagree with is Peach. 5th is too high. Marth and Jiggs are still better imo, and newcomers Ike and Pit are pretty equal to Peach.
I feel like Mario is a brand new character. Better recovery, projectiles, speed, power, combos, everything! I would only switch Mario with Sheik from the 2.1 tier list.
Again, I think Marth is better than Peach. People are overhyping her new utilt or something, idk. She has the same problem as Jiggs with new threats to floaties. Marth is still Marth. Ken and M2K (among others) made Marth one of the most developed characters in melee. And it shows, as he was the most used charcter in 2.1. He is 7th on my list only because of newcomers Mario and Lucario.
Lucario has enormous potential, somebody is gonna be nice as hell with my man Lucario.
With that said, here is my first attempt at a 2.5 tier list:

 

[BJN39]

Where do you think Zelda should be?

Heh, I personally believe she (in 2.5) could be 7th to 10th. In a place next to Marth, Sheik, and/or Peach.

In 2.1 I'd say 10th or 11th.

And i'm probably one of the only with such an opinion of Zelda.

 

[Deleted member]

Heh, I personally believe she (in 2.5) could be 7th to 10th. In a place next to Marth, Sheik, and/or Peach.

In 2.1 I'd say 10th or 11th.

And i'm probably one of the only with such an opinion of Zelda.

Why that high? Just curious. Does anybody know who the best Zelda is in PM?

 

[standardtoaster]

Probably Ryoko.

 

[tripwire]

Zhime is pretty decent with her as well. She seems really effective even with out Shiek. Also maybe it was just me missing videos but it didn't seem to me like that many people actually played Marth that much in PM

 

[Juushichi]

Best Zelda is a tossup between Zhime and Ryoko. Both play different styles.

 

[BluEG]

Lol @ sonic being towards the bottom of everyones list....

Wizzrobe is coming.


But honestly, its too early to really create a tier list...so much to be discovered and tournaments to be held.

Luigi and many others will be at the bottom of the tier lists because no one/very few people understand how to use them or have seen them used to their full potential. This will continue to be the case for a long time to come.

Luigi's recovery is actually retardedly good now if you take the time to master it.

 

[T44]

Luigi and many others will be at the bottom of the tier lists because no one/very few people understand how to use them or have seen them used to their full potential. This will continue to be the case for a long time to come.

Luigi's recovery is actually retardedly good now if you take the time to master it.

He's still very light and has slow fall speed though, making him easy to KO. I would still argue that he's worse than most characters with similar kits, ie pika squirtle & diddy

 

[Life]

Luigi is light? Is that a PM change? In vbrawl, Mario, Sonic, and Luigi were all at about the same weight right in the middle.

 

[Translucent]

Luigi is around the middle for his rank of weight, along with Mario. Sonic is a lighter character than both of them, however.