Tier List Speculation

[crabsmack]

With that said, here is my first attempt at a 2.5 tier list:

I mostly agree with this list. Maybe some minor shifts around. However, I think Toon Link and Wario are criminally undervalued.

Wario's seen some of the largest changes from Brawl, and thus of course his metagame will need to redevelop. But I think he's already an extremely solid character. Why so low?

Can't speak so much to Tink, but in my first impressions he seemed fairly potent.

 

[TheDevicer]

Going back to Ivy, I just had some matches with and against her. It seemed pitifully easy for Marth to land a grab on her and string f-throws together until finishing with a jump-off dAir. I think it might be a bit of a bad matchup, but bAir and side-b weren't doing it for me when it came to zoning.

As for Ziggz, I do believe she's under-played and underestimated. She does have some incredibly difficult new threats. One of the biggest things she had going for her in Melee was how well she fought against humans. Hbox himself said he had great matchups against the humans because he weaved in attacks hitting primarily the upper body of his opponents. The cast now features loads of characters that are harder for her to zone. Overall, she's a mad menace in the right hands but has not taken the transition to PM well.

 

[DMG]

Luigi's recovery is only good if you get the misfire. Other than that, yeah it's nice that you don't have to "charge" a down B onstage to get the rising one, but he's pretty predictable and limited while recovering.

Edit: Marth is an awful MU for Ivy. Probably 65:35 bordering on 7:3. He should consistently get in and massacre her.

 

[Vashimus]

As for Ziggz, I do believe she's under-played and underestimated. She does have some incredibly difficult new threats. One of the biggest things she had going for her in Melee was how well she fought against humans. Hbox himself said he had great matchups against the humans because he weaved in attacks hitting primarily the upper body of his opponents. The cast now features loads of characters that are harder for her to zone. Overall, she's a mad menace in the right hands but has not taken the transition to PM well.

Not to mention she still has the problem of getting camped out, or just completely outranged. Fox can still DD camp or top platform camp, only lasering to force you to approach or get to a kill percentage, Sheik can still camp with needles and space bairs while abusing platforms, Marth will always be difficult for her, and Ike consistently gave me headaches. But yes, human (or Hylian) characters are by far her favorite opponents.

She's still very high in my eyes, but she's having more trouble than ever right now.

 

[Dante']

The fact that everyone's best and worst characters are very different is a good sign and shows good balance. Its really surprising people already have full tier lists before a change log is even released. I have a feeling that PM will take a similar rode to Persona 4 arena, which is that every character is tournament viable, and tier lists don't matter as much as match ups. In my opinion, that is the best possible balance situation for a fighting game.

 

[TheDevicer]

A bit off-topic, but if Hbox vs Mango in recent tournaments has shown anything, it's that Fox doesn't even need to do all that camping. If anything, Mango's been worse off while he's been going less aggro.

I don't think that Marth is such a difficult matchup for Jiggz. Marth lacks reliable ways to finish her considering her weight and is laughably easy to gimp once Jiggz gets in. At lower levels of play, I'd say the matchup is heavily in Marth's favor simply because of how easy it is to wall her with fAirs, but there's a point in which this becomes easy to punish. The spacing in this matchup intrigues me.

 

[Vashimus]

Jiggs can **** Marth hard when she's in, it's just getting in that's the trouble, simply because he outspaces all of your moves. I've played a lot of Marth players, since he's such a popular character, so I know how to handle it. But I just hate it. Spacing is name of the game, and you just have to capitalize and combo him hard when you get the chance, but his damn tipper kills so early.There are times where I feel the matchup is not in my favor.

The fact that everyone's best and worst characters are very different is a good sign and shows good balance. Its really surprising people already have full tier lists before a change log is even released. I have a feeling that PM will take a similar rode to Persona 4 arena, which is that every character is tournament viable, and tier lists don't matter as much as match ups. In my opinion, that is the best possible balance situation for a fighting game.

^ Still ****s on the rest of the cast. Though she goes fairly even with Aigis.

 

[Dante']

Your right about Mitsuru and Aigis, but I was more referencing the fact that it isn't that hard for Elizabeth and Kanji to win tournaments, assuming they don't run into to many bad match ups. I feel like it will be similar in PM. Ivy's change of winning will depend on how many Marths are in the tournament and if the Ivy play has a solid secondary. Just my opinion, I might be completely wrong.

 

[OkamiBW]

@OkamiBW: How will you put ties into your excel spreadsheet analysis?

I'm not exactly sure yet. With the method I have in mind, I'll just place them both at the high spot and then skip a number.

Here's my current tier list as of New Years:

Okami's 2.5 Tier List v2:

Spoiler

Top
1. Fox

2. Falco

3. Mario

4. Peach

5. Sheik

6. Marth

High
7. Jigglypuff

8. Wolf

9. Pit

10. Pikachu

11. Toon Link

12. Link

13. Lucario

Mid
14. Ike

15. Falcon

16. Lucas

17. Snake

18. Sonic

19. Diddy

20. Zero Suit Samus

Low
21. Zelda

22. Charizard

23. Donkey Kong

24. Ganondorf

25. Squirtle

26. Luigi

27. Ivysaur

Bottom
28. Wario

29. Bowser

30. R.O.B.

31. Ness

32. DeDeDe

33. Game and Watch

My previous tier list:

Spoiler

Okami's 2.5 Tier List:

Top
1. Fox

2. Peach

3. Falco

4. Mario

5. Sheik

6. Marth

High
7. Pit

8. Toon Link

9. Link

10. Jigglypuff

11. Wolf

12. Pikachu

13. Lucario

14. Falcon

Mid
15. Zero Suit Samus

16. Lucas

17. Sonic

18. Snake

19. Ike

20. Diddy

21. Charizard

Low
22. Zelda

23. Ganondorf

24. Ivysaur

25. Donkey Kong

26. Ness

27. Wario

Bottom
28. R.O.B.

29. Squirtle

30. Bowser

31. Game and Watch

32. DeDeDe

33. Luigi

Data for the tier lists copy-pasted from Excel:

Spoiler

Username OkamiBW Ice Arrow MCO

1 Fox Fox Fox
2 Falco Falco Falco
3 Mario Squirtle Sheik
4 Peach Diddy Mario
5 Sheik Ike Lucario
6 Marth Peach Jigglypuff
7 Puff Sheik Marth
8 Wolf Link Ike
9 Pit Marth Peach
10 Pikachu Puff Pit
11 TL Lucario Ganondorf
12 Link Snake Falcon
13 Lucario Ganondorf Link
14 Ike Wolf Lucas
15 Falcon Mario Zelda
16 Lucas Falcon Wolf
17 Snake DK Pikachu
18 Sonic Zelda Diddy
19 Diddy Pit Squirtle
20 ZSS TL Snake
21 Zelda Luigi DK
22 Zard Wario Ivysaur
23 DK Lucas Bowser
24 Ganondorf Ivysaur ZSS
25 Squirtle Pikachu Sonic
26 Luigi ROB Zard
27 Ivysaur Ness Luigi
28 Wario Zard Ness
29 Bowser Sonic Wario
30 ROB ZSS ROB
31 Ness D3 TL
32 D3 Bowser D3
33 GnW GnW GnW

And current average using data from the 3 tier lists (more tier lists will produce more of a consensus):

Top
1. Fox

2. Falco

3. Sheik

4. Peach

5. Mario

5. Marth

High
7. Jigglypuff

8. Ike

9. Lucario

10. Link

11. Wolf

11. Pit

13. Diddy

Mid
14. Falcon

15. Squirtle

16. Ganondorf

17. Snake

18. Pikachu

19. Lucas

20. Zelda

Low
21. Toon Link

22. Donkey Kong

23. Sonic

24. Ivysaur

25. Zero Suit Samus

25. Luigi

27. Charizard

Bottom
28. Wario

29. Bowser

29. R.O.B.

29. Ness

32. DeDeDe

33. Game and Watch

 

[zeldasmash]

TOP

S

1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Sheik
4. Mario

A+

5. Jigglypuff
6. Marth
7. Lucario
8. Link

A

9. Ike
10. Pit
11. Peach
12. Captain Falcon
13. Ganondorf

B+

14. Wolf
15. Zelda
16. Pikachu
17. Lucas
18. Diddy Kong
19. Ivysaur
20. Squirtle

B

21. Snake
22. Donkey Kong
23. Ness
24. Sonic
25. Zero Suit Samus
26. R.O.B.

C+

27. Charizard
28. Luigi
29. Toon Link
30. Bowser

C

31. Mr. Game & Watch
32. Wario
33. King Dedede

This is imo

 

[Deleted member]

Okami, I'm going to keep track of the lists too. In case you stop, or if you don't feel like it or whatever.
How does everybody feel about excluding outliers from the data? For example, in just the 3 lists that we have collected so far here are some of the more baffling rankings (not coming at Arrows, but most are his)
Mario at 15th from 3rd.
Diddy and Squirtle at 3 and 4.
Pit at 19th from 13th.
Ganon at 24th from 11th.
Tink at 11th and 31st from 19th.
etc.
When I excluded these, and a few others, here is what the list looks like:

 

[JCaesar]

ROB and Bowser in D tier makes me giggle uncontrollably.

 

[BJN39]

So should I repost mine? (with a few changes) to be added?

[COLLAPSE="List"]S Tier:
/
A Tier:

B Tier:

C+ Tier:

C Tier:

C- Tier:


Again, I might change my mind on certain Chars as 2.5 is out longer.
[/COLLAPSE]

 

[Deleted member]

I mostly agree with this list. Maybe some minor shifts around. However, I think Toon Link and Wario are criminally undervalued.

Wario's seen some of the largest changes from Brawl, and thus of course his metagame will need to redevelop. But I think he's already an extremely solid character. Why so low?

Can't speak so much to Tink, but in my first impressions he seemed fairly potent.

After about the top 20, i think everybody is pretty even. I actually kind of based my C-Tier on popularity. The more people using a character, the faster said character will develop.

Tink has been ranked 11th, 20th, 28th, 31st, an 31st. I'm not really sure about Tinky. He needs time to develop.

 

[Deleted member]

ROB and Bowser in D tier makes me giggle uncontrollably.

You can stop giggling
Added ZeldaSmash and BJN39:

 

[Kink-Link5]

yeahhhhhhh day 1 tier lists yeaaaaaaaaaaaa

[collapse=Bunni's 2.5 list version 1.0 with obscenely limited information on many characters at all]S Class
Top Tier
1. Fox
2. Zelda/Sheik
3. Falco
4. Sheik
5. Jigglypuff

Very High Tier
6. Mario
7. Peach
8. Pit
9. Zero Suit Samus
10. Lucario
11. Link
12. Charizard
13. Wolf
14. Toon Link

A Class
High Tier
15. Lucas
16. King DeDeDe
17. Snake
18. Diddy Kong
19. Pikachu
20. Marth
21. Wario
22. Squirtle
23. Ike
24. R.O.B.

B Class
Middle Tier
25. Luigi
26. Captain Falcon
27. Ganondorf
28. Ivysaur
29. Bowser
30. Ness
31. Sonic
32. Zelda
33. Donkey Kong

C Class
Low Tier
34. Mr. Game and Watch
[/collapse]

Top is Melee top tier Level

Very High is a smidgen above Melee Peach/Marth Level

High is Melee Marth Level

Middle is Melee Doc/Falcon Level

Low is Melee DK Level

 

[V-K]

Sheik is imo still the best character, such insanely easy combos on every character. Jiggs definitely worse than before, she feels not quite as good anymore (not sure why) and on most characters it's really hard to get a rest on. In Melee you had chars like Fox, Falco or Falcon that you could just upthrow and then put to sleep but in PM most characters aren't fast fallers. Of course some chars like Ganon or Link you can still catch when they roll but it's still harder.

Ness is godlike, I think he is one of the best characters in the game, you can do insane combos with him and his dair is a scary spike.

But yeah, hard to come up with a tier list when pretty much every character has the capabilities to be amazing.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

you think zelda is the 3rd worst in the game, but somehow zelda makes sheik better than falco?

also, lol at charizard at #12, but Ike at #23

 

[Beautiful Death]

The Man said something about Charizard being able to stall forever with his Down B in the air. I'll have to see about it tonight if I can.

If he can do that then this will obviously influence how good he is. Get the life lead then boom. See ya!

...........It will also raise questions as to the competence of playtesters and such and such.

But I'll have to see for myself. If it really does work out this will be the most hilariously dumb thing since tripping in Brawl.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

the infinite downb thing is an oversight though it's not really part of his design, and it will certainly be corrected upon release of 2.6 or some such thing.

 

[Kink-Link5]

you think zelda is the 3rd worst in the game, but somehow zelda makes sheik better than falco?

You are very good at reading things put before you.

also, lol at charizard at #12, but Ike at #23

Because A tier is such a bad look.

the infinite downb thing is an oversight though it's not really part of his design, and it will certainly be corrected upon release of 2.6 or some such thing.

Good thing this is a 2.5 tier list thread.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

What is it about PM that makes you think Marth should be #20 instead of #5 like he is in melee? What MUs changed to make him drop so drastically? He must be getting shut down by a lot of people now.

and what does zelda contribute to sheik? Switching between them is ever less practical now than it ever was in melee with switching times and such. What MUs are improved thanks to zelda?

 

[Beautiful Death]

Hmmm well it's a part of his design now. Just like infinites are a part of the Ice Climbers in Melee and Brawl.

Lol.

Someone PLEASE have the decency to pull this off in a tournament before too many people find out about it and it gets banned.

 

[Kink-Link5]

What is it about PM that makes you think Marth should be #20 instead of #5 like he is in melee? What MUs changed to make him drop so drastically? He must be getting shut down by a lot of people now.

The introduction of 20+ viable characters has something to do with it.

 

[V-K]

One thing is for sure: Mr Gayman Watch will always be low tier because nobody plays him.

 

[GunBlaze]

One thing is for sure: Mr Gayman Watch will always be low tier because nobody plays him.

And just because of that, but the character is viable now.

 

[Nicean]

and what does zelda contribute to sheik? Switching between them is ever less practical now than it ever was in melee with switching times and such. What MUs are improved thanks to zelda?

Switching between them is easier and more practical. You are free to act on frame 1, and especially having more practice with Shielda/fast reflexes, you can pull of some of the most silly kills I've seen in smash. Textures (which are now almost universal) make it go faster, but being able to come out of invulnerability to an opponent that is almost certainly waiting to grab/do awful things and do an extremely quick smash that can easily kill (both Sheik and Zelda have them) on frame 1, completely unpredictably since transformation times are different for every Wii (as far as I can tell) makes things easier.

I would also argue that the Link/Tink matchup, depending on whether you're comfortable with it, is at least the same for both Zelda and Sheik. I think Zelda has it easier, but I'm not an expert.

And like everyone's been saying, almost every character is in some way viable, so having another viable character attached to Sheik helps her case, as opposed to melee, where Zelda didn't affect Sheik at all.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

The introduction of 20+ viable characters has something to do with it.

but you have peach up there. A character who is largely unchanged in pretty much every way. How'd Marth go from being "one of the most viable, most used characters in melee" to "All the way down there at #20", when Peach is in pretty much the same spot she was always in? I don't see her beating the newcomers better than Marth does.

I just think this is a really weird trend. Every list is putting Peach up in the top tier, but somehow Marth is dropping. If anything, it should be the other way around. Marth is and always will be better than Peach, it doesn't matter who they're fighting.

 

[Deleted member]

What is it about PM that makes you think Marth should be #20 instead of #5 like he is in melee? What MUs changed to make him drop so drastically? He must be getting shut down by a lot of people now.

and what does zelda contribute to sheik? Switching between them is ever less practical now than it ever was in melee with switching times and such. What MUs are improved thanks to zelda?

Don't try to argue with Kink. It's a waste of time. Just let him have his wild opinions, he enjoys being unique in his thought process.
I 100% agree with you btw. 20 new viable characters threaten marth, but no1 else...? Cmon Kink.
Also, Sheilda isn't a thing. Maybe if downB was A LOT faster, but it's just not practical at all.

 

[Deleted member]

but you have peach up there. A character who is largely unchanged in pretty much every way. How'd Marth go from being "one of the most viable, most used characters in melee" to "All the way down there at #20", when Peach is in pretty much the same spot she was always in? I don't see her beating the newcomers better than Marth does.

I just think this is a really weird trend. Every list is putting Peach up in the top tier, but somehow Marth is dropping. If anything, it should be the other way around. Marth is and always will be better than Peach, it doesn't matter who they're fighting.

Also very true Marth>Peach

 

[Kink-Link5]

I don't see how Marth dropped at all. He's in the exact same tier grouping as in Melee. Peach is only marginally better than him in any case. Stop thinking of characters being good as being synonymous with other characters getting bad.

So much hostility ****

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I'm not trying to be hostile. I'm curious. I want to know why over half the people making tier lists think Peach became better than Marth. This is an opinion that you've demonstrated that you share. I was hoping you could explain it to me.

 

[Deleted member]

Kink: "Very High is a smidgen above Melee Peach/Marth Level.
High is Melee Marth Level"

Sorry for the hostility, but this doesn't make sense to me. Are you unfamiliar with melees tier list? Or do you just disagree with it?

 

[Kink-Link5]

502 bad gate way

something something

Peach u-tilt

I'm angry about the gateway thing still ****



I disagree with the 2010 Melee tier list yes; Marth and Peach are at a nearly identical level to me in Melee. Peach got AGT turnips, RAR Float bair, Footstool traps and combos, and other various tricks to do. Marth got a dair that makes him not disadvantageous on hit.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Is that really it? One move got marginally buffed, so now Peach is better than Marth? That seems so weird to me. Is utilt like, a super reliable kill move now or something?

EDIT: oh ok, I can see stuff like footstools and AGT actually having a pretty significant effect on Peach's game.

 

[V-K]

Yeah I don't think Marth is really worse than Diddy, ZSS and Pikachu.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Is that really it? One move got marginally buffed, so now Peach is better than Marth? That seems so weird to me. Is utilt like, a super reliable kill move now or something?

Not just u-tilt, there was a larger post with other stuff besides that, but

502 bad gateway

Anyway

The weirdest thing to me though, is that people are seeing it as characters getting worse.

Marth's in ****ing A tier. The worst character I have listed is still "almost acceptable" in Melee standard, and the group above him is very acceptable. Would you call Melee Ice Climbers, Samus, or Doc "bad characters"?

Just because I put other characters above Marth doesn't mean Marth is put in a low spot. Most matchups in this game are damn close enough to even that the difference isn't on near a grand scale.

 

[Archangel]

One thing is for sure: Mr Gayman Watch will always be low tier because nobody plays him.

He is still using the Base design of Melee gayman watch. He's improved but and improved turd will still be a turd. Bowser was tweaked and he's very good. Zelda was tweaked and she's very good. G&W Needs more than tweaks to his default melee style. He needs some serious changes. New moves. Maybe a new down-b for example or a newly functioned Neutral B...or both. Change his Hammer so that he only gets 1-4(all the good ones). Make him heavier, give him back his parachute. Change some of his aerials...etc. Little changes are not going to do it clearly. All you've managed to do is take a bottom tier (IMO as bad as pichu and kirby) and make him as good as a melee low tiers. Even now in 2.5 he's an improved low but still low. He needs Drastic changes or he's got no hope.

 

[Deleted member]

I understand you aren't arguing Marth is bad. And the changes to Peach that you listed could actually sway my current placement of her at 9th.
I still disagree with Marth at 19th, but, it's whatever.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

The weirdest thing to me though, is that people are seeing it as characters getting worse.

Marth's in ****ing A tier. The worst character I have listed is still "almost acceptable" in Melee standard, and the group above him is very acceptable. Would you call Melee Ice Climbers, Samus, or Doc "bad characters"?

Just because I put other characters above Marth doesn't mean Marth is put in a low spot. Most matchups in this game are damn close enough to even that the difference isn't on near a grand scale.

I wouldn't call ICs, Samus or Doc bad, but I'd be confused if Marth fell below them. I just think it's weird that with so little data available, people are just rushing to drop Marth down to a lower spot on the tier list. It's one thing if you think all the characters around him are of relatively equal viability, but the Vets are the standard. I don't see how anyone could just up and place a totally new character above any of them until they've proven that's where they belong. I don't think any of the characters you have above Marth have proven that, outside of the top 4.