Tier List Speculation

JediLink

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Your not the only one, but is it really possible to make a Final Smash balanced with it`s not Final Smash counterpart while at the same time balancing the Final Smashes and not making them all useless?
Well, I don't think anyone was ever worried about final smashes being balanced in the first place. Half of them are terrible, half of them are good and 2.43% of them are Super Sonic.
 

QQQQQQQ7777777

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Well, I don't think anyone was ever worried about final smashes being balanced in the first place. Half of them are terrible, half of them are good and 2.43% of them are Super Sonic.
The PMBR has said that they would like to balance Final Smashes and they have changed a few of them to be a little more balanced in 3.0
 

jtm94

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Giga Bowser is ridiculously comboable, he just falls onto any attack.

As far as final smashes go, they don't need more balanced, but all they have to do is make the sucky ones suck less.
 

Rizner

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a better question would be why wasn't she there in the first place

like seriously she hasn't changed much since 2001 what is wrong with people
I mean..when she isn't changed and the rest of the cast is buffed,I don't see what qualities put her in to 5 except melee pros already know how to use her (which imo puts players up there but not the character). I could see around the top 10, but probably would put her a little lower than that myself.
 

Rizner

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a better question would be why wasn't she there in the first place

like seriously she hasn't changed much since 2001 what is wrong with people
I mean..when she isn't changed and the rest of the cast is buffed,I don't see what qualities put her in to 5 except melee pros already know how to use her (which imo puts players up there but not the character). I could see around the top 10, but probably would put her a little lower than that myself.
 

Strong Badam

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the rest of the cast is buffed to a level that is still not sheik is the problem with that analysis
 

Strong Badam

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lol don't be silly, it's still just my opinion. very informed opinion, but opinion nonetheless
 

NWRL

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Here's my tier list

God Tier: Captain Falcon, Snake, Wolf

Furry Tier: Fox, Falco, Lucario

Filthy Humies Tier: Mario, Luigi, ZSS, Ganondorf, Roy, Ike, Marth, Ness, Lucas, Wario, Peach, Pit, Ice Climbers, Samus

Legolas Tier: Link, Toon Link, Sheik, Zelda

Beast Wars Tier: Yoshi, Bowser, DK, Diddy

Pokemon Tier: Ivysaur, Squirtle, Charizard, Jiggs, Pikajew, Mewtwo

Dreamland Tier: Kirby, D3, MK

I Ran out of Tier Names Tier: Olimar, Sanic, ROB, GnW
 
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Iceman

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I mean..when she isn't changed and the rest of the cast is buffed,I don't see what qualities put her in to 5 except melee pros already know how to use her (which imo puts players up there but not the character). I could see around the top 10, but probably would put her a little lower than that myself.
Sheik is the no-bull**** character of Project M. She will not tolerate any amount of bull**** from any character. Just try playing around against a good Sheik. She will throw that **** back in your face. LoL
 

Rizner

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the rest of the cast is buffed to a level that is still not sheik is the problem with that analysis
That's a fair point. Had thought enough others have the ability to fight evenly against her now. What is it that makes her so good, though? If she's the same as melee, what is it in melee that carried over for it that is the same here?

Sheik is the no-bull**** character of Project M. She will not tolerate any amount of bull**** from any character. Just try playing around against a good Sheik. She will throw that **** back in your face. LoL
If wanted you could make that argument about a lot of the cast. Unsure what exactly sets her apart from others in getting that spot. I'd prefer to go against sheik than many others, but that's just me.
 

Iceman

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That's a fair point. Had thought enough others have the ability to fight evenly against her now. What is it that makes her so good, though? If she's the same as melee, what is it in melee that carried over for it that is the same here?


If wanted you could make that argument about a lot of the cast. Unsure what exactly sets her apart from others in getting that spot. I'd prefer to go against sheik than many others, but that's just me.
I was mostly saying that to be funny, but she is an incredibly solid character. In Melee and Project M I think strength comes from her versatility. She has tools to deal with a wide variety of characters and a wide variety of play styles. In my opinion she is also one of the easier characters to start learning. She is just a constant threat, and I think it makes sense that people are putting her high on their tier lists.
 

MoonlapseOpethian

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Not for at least a year in a stable patch. Everything till that point is extremely opinion based and has very little relevance or data to back it up.
Thank you. I was hoping we'd at least get a temporary one after Apex 2014, it being major and all and the community only having just retrieved the full roster (a lack of a full roster made the most sense for a lack of a tier list) but I guess that's not gonna fly.
 

Strong Badam

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That's a fair point. Had thought enough others have the ability to fight evenly against her now. What is it that makes her so good, though? If she's the same as melee, what is it in melee that carried over for it that is the same here?
She's good at a lot of core things. She beats up CCing with needles/grab/spaced fair, she combos amazingly, techchases great, she's fast, edgeguards well, has tons of low startup attacks, etc. The only characters (other than Melee spacies) that I could see being better than she is are Wolf and MK at the moment, but both of those characters get trunched on by Fox and Sheik does pretty well against Fox in this game.
 

Rizner

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She's good at a lot of core things. She beats up CCing with needles/grab/spaced fair, she combos amazingly, techchases great, she's fast, edgeguards well, has tons of low startup attacks, etc. The only characters (other than Melee spacies) that I could see being better than she is are Wolf and MK at the moment, but both of those characters get trunched on by Fox and Sheik does pretty well against Fox in this game.
I was mostly saying that to be funny, but she is an incredibly solid character. In Melee and Project M I think strength comes from her versatility. She has tools to deal with a wide variety of characters and a wide variety of play styles. In my opinion she is also one of the easier characters to start learning. She is just a constant threat, and I think it makes sense that people are putting her high on their tier lists.
ok I can buy that. Thanks. One more question - how does she pin up against range like Samus or snake or others with song projectiles or stage coverage? Is it heavily dependant on the stage, or are those possibly harder matchups?
 

Strong Badam

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ok I can buy that. Thanks. One more question - how does she pin up against range like Samus or snake or others with song projectiles or stage coverage? Is it heavily dependant on the stage, or are those possibly harder matchups?
She's got long legs so she doesn't really struggle against range like others do. PS reflect and platform movement helps her get around projectiles pretty well.
 

Soft Serve

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Do needles still cancel out charge shots? I noticed that charge shots clanked with other projectiles less.
 

Juushichi

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Yes.

Sheik still molests Samus and she still molests Snake (unless you are Professor Pro).

Also, the new "****head character" as I like to call it... or "2.6 Ivysaur" if you want to be PC is going to be Diddy. Just you wait.
 
D

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She's good at a lot of core things. She beats up CCing with needles/grab/spaced fair, she combos amazingly, techchases great, she's fast, edgeguards well, has tons of low startup attacks, etc. The only characters (other than Melee spacies) that I could see being better than she is are Wolf and MK at the moment, but both of those characters get trunched on by Fox and Sheik does pretty well against Fox in this game.
this is pretty much spot on. i maintain that sheik is amazing in PM and i've consistently said she's top 1-2 since 2.6 was released (i put her as 2-3 in 2.5 guess who got nerfed) although at this point i'm pretty sure sheik is 2nd best to fox. even then i think she does fine vs fox, fox just has more automatic MUs due to his neutral game (having EASIER MUs is definitely an advantage over the course of the tournament even if they're still EQUAL overall).

sheik is good at a lot of fundamentals AFTER you get past her limited ability to negotiate space coverage in the neutral game. this is because sheik fundamentally lacks a dashdance and subsequently an aggressive air dash. tbh i sometimes think of this is advantageous because it forces her to be so linear that you has to really **** it up to over-extend with her in neutral in a way that other characters are prone to (looking at you, other marth players that aren't me or PP) even though i realize that overall the lack of a major movement type is strictly disadvantageous. i also think sheik has a harder time than usual against characters that are able to challenge her normals from neutral when she tries to feign positional advantage because she doesn't actually have any. lately i've been thinking that this is why sheik seems to have more problems with fat characters even though her basic design should destroy them on paper (particularly when she's trying to challenge normals that are equally janky as her own like ROBs).

my current list for top tiers in 3.0 is this:

S
1 fox
2 sheik
3 falco
4 MK
5 wolf

basically all 5 of these characters are flawless in terms of their design so it comes down more to MUs than traditional smash games because there's so little to exploit. even then i'm hesitant to put falco @ 3rd over MK because he kinda sucks vs peach and other pocket chars with fairly simple hate tactics.

A
6 peach
7 mario
8 pit
9 ICs
10 diddy

after that i'm not sure at all and it gets weird. adam you definitely put marth too high he's way too easy to cheese in this game to be top 10. i have several more characters i'd put above marth here that aren't even mentioned, he's seriously about as hardcore mid-tier as it gets.
 
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Scidadle

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So since I've just recently got into PM could someoone briefly explain why I see Peach, Diddy, and wolf so high. Not saying I disagree I would just like some explanation.

What changes did peach get?
 
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peach is still ****ing peach, she's dangerous as ****, has godly CPs, has unique and powerful trap set-ups, has a multitude of good defensive properties, and dashdancing is largely nerfed.
 

Scidadle

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I don't get it. I use the same argument for falcon saying I think falcon is top 10 cause he's still falcon but better however I don't see him being top 10 on anyone's list. Maybe I'm just missing something or I'm new to the game? I dunno
 
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falcon's entire character is based on DD into launchers (upthrow basically) into upair abuse. DD is worse in this game, and even though falcon is better other characters were improved much more than falcon was, so relatively he's worse.

falcon is still probably better than marth though for basically having the exact same tools and MUs except less terrible CP weaknesses.
 

Scythe

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S
1 fox
2 sheik
3 falco
4 MK
5 wolf

basically all 5 of these characters are flawless in terms of their design so it comes down more to MUs than traditional smash games because there's so little to exploit. even then i'm hesitant to put falco @ 3rd over MK because he kinda sucks vs peach and other pocket chars with fairly simple hate tactics.

.
This top 5 is pretty much the best i've seen. Maybe wolf above mk
 

DrinkingFood

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DD is worse in this game
Why do you say this? Are you talking as in, comparatively worse considering more characters have tools to control stage space? Or generally worse because of the one frame momentum delay (which i'm not entirely sure if that affects DDing but seems like it should)?
 
D

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lots of factors add up here, but the major ones are a normalized dash speed across the cast, less polarized ground approaches, better alternatives with aerial engagements, more moves with lower start-up time, and more normalized movement in general.
 
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