Professor Pro
Smash Legend
Top 1 in a particular order - Snake
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Rizner
Smash Ace
Why has sheik jumped up so much on the lists suddenly?
Nguz95
Smash Lord
Probably because people have realized that fair still kills everybody.
Scidadle
Smash Champion
Captain Falcon is melee falcon but his recovery has been drastically improved, side b offers a completely different element to his recovery and is a really ambiguous mix-up, it's really really difficult to cover both side b and up b making him live much much longer. Additionally his falcon kick got a major buff and actually has enough knockback to kill and set up ledgeguard opportunities as well as being fairly lagless. In short, he's melee falcon but better and melee falcon is already a top 8 character (In melee).
Link seems to have almost all of the flaws of his melee counterpart completely removed save maybe his recovery as well as difficulty with good shield pressure but that seems to be an inherent flaw with characters that have a ranged grab like that. Link has great range with his sword and can remain safe while applying great pressure with his buffed projectiles and has amazing combos off of grabs. He's also gotten considerably quicker and has been given another spacing option with his zair. I know M2K has said he thinks Link is the best character in PM, I'd take that with a grain of salt though.
HAPPY?
Link seems to have almost all of the flaws of his melee counterpart completely removed save maybe his recovery as well as difficulty with good shield pressure but that seems to be an inherent flaw with characters that have a ranged grab like that. Link has great range with his sword and can remain safe while applying great pressure with his buffed projectiles and has amazing combos off of grabs. He's also gotten considerably quicker and has been given another spacing option with his zair. I know M2K has said he thinks Link is the best character in PM, I'd take that with a grain of salt though.
HAPPY?
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RIDLEY is too SMALL
Smash Journeyman
Some good points, and you're right about his side-b forcing the edge-guarder to play the guessing game, which is a major buff. However, he still has one of the worst recoveries in a game where most characters have amazing recoveries.
True, but PM Ganon is a far-better version of Melee Ganon and Melee Ganon is #10, but most people think that PM Ganon is the worst or one of the worst characters in PM. Point being: PM is very balanced and full of really solid characters that would be upper tier in Melee. Falcon was considered to be at the tip of the competitively-viable, top-tier characters in melee, so of course he's not as high on the list relative to the other characters. That doesn't mean that he's bad; as you said, he's a lot better, but so if everyone else.
I think the opposite is true. Link still has all of his Melee flaws (large, heavy, easy-to-combo, punishable grab game, poor movement) but he's been buffed in other areas (faster moves that allow for better combos, improved projectiles as you said, better grab options as you said) so that he has major strengths while still possessing his old weaknesses.
You're goddamn right I'm happy.
RIDLEY is too SMALL
Smash Journeyman
EDIT: Accidental double post. Smashboards hates me.
SixSaw
Smash Journeyman
I wish this were true.
going into yoshi: he's also a beast in a million ways onstage now. since his egg shield no longer has any downside, this gives him arguably the best on-stage defense in the game, because it's pretty much now a standard shield with even more tricks to utilize and bait with
his offstage still gives him huge trouble, absolutely, but his stage presence is good enough to get things done now
his offstage still gives him huge trouble, absolutely, but his stage presence is good enough to get things done now
burgerkong
Smash Rookie
Again, as a relative noob, I'm just gonna address why I think (and agree) that Link and Falcon are not top 10 right now in PM.
It's not an issue with the characters themselves, but rather their competition. Sure Falcon got slightly buffed and Link got signficantly buffed, but as it is the spacies are just too good and the other top tiers just have advantages over them matchup-wise or against the other top tiers.
Falcon's buffs pale in comparison to the buffs of other characters, and he's still easily gimpable. As it is, I'd argue that his match ups against the melee top tiers have changed negligibly (i.e. still bad for the most part) and his matchups against the new buffed Melee low-tiers are now closer, meaning an overall decrease in his positive matchups. As well, I can't really say he dominates the Brawl cast either.
Link, though he received buffs, still suffers from bad matchups against the top tiers. He's heavy like Falcon, making him easily comboable, but also slow, which are definitely 2 huge downsides. I definitely don't think 'all' his flaws have been removed, and his unsafe grab game limits his options against shielding opponents and when he himself is getting shield pressured.
I think both are higher end of mid-tier, but we'll see as the metagame develops.
Vashimus
Smash Master
Falcon's recovery is entirely predictable. If he's below the stage, up-B. If he's going to be level with it, he'll side-B. If he's way up in the air, he'll double jump, Falcon Kick down, double jump again, then Up-B.
Compare that other characters who also have Up and Side B to recover, like spacies, who some people like to think have poor recoveries. But their Up-B can be aimed. They can go upward, sideways, or even downward to sweet spot the ledge. That's three different angles right there from one move, and there are more directions it can aim than the 8 cardinal ones. They're recoveries aren't Peach, Jiggs, or Samus level, but they can at least give the person edgeguarding a hard time to figure out where they're going.
Falcon? He basically has to pray every time gets off stage.
Compare that other characters who also have Up and Side B to recover, like spacies, who some people like to think have poor recoveries. But their Up-B can be aimed. They can go upward, sideways, or even downward to sweet spot the ledge. That's three different angles right there from one move, and there are more directions it can aim than the 8 cardinal ones. They're recoveries aren't Peach, Jiggs, or Samus level, but they can at least give the person edgeguarding a hard time to figure out where they're going.
Falcon? He basically has to pray every time gets off stage.
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Falcon either takes nice hot dumps on you or you beat Falcon but still leave Falcon with room to cheese you if you make mistakes.
That's kind of how he works.
Some characters just can't really handle his onstage mobility, and/or his few good options (tend to be Nair, Uair, grabs or more dash dancing... or just going manmode with raw approaches that work when they shouldn't) actually work well against them. Once Falcon confirms a hit he can just open up on you and put you in a bad position where he can create another opening with ease, or just outright kill you.
Then you have characters that can actually handle his options, so Falcon has to rely more and more on capitalizing from their mistakes or raw approaches working out (which again they shouldn't... even when they do). The end result of Falcon getting a hit is usually the same for any character...
I feel like Falcon's place in the tier list will basically reflect characters that can handle his options and characters that can't all too well, which is fairly similar to Melee imo. Of course you'll see exceptions, but in general the characters at the top have great neutral games that can deal with Falcon, and worse neutral games, and hence will tend to have more trouble with Falcon's options, will be farther down.
I see Falcon basically as relatively strong as he was in Melee. Like, say Falcon is top 8 in Melee out of 28 he's maybe top 15 in Project M's 41. A "high tier" character that sort of represents the barrier to entry if you will to the really damn good characters. Granted in PM going down lower than Falcon in the tier list isn't too much of a drop anymore, and I don't really think you get a big drop until you approach the bottom few characters. Even the bottom few characters can succeed to some degree, but they are going to be more reliant on inexperience, capitalizing on mistakes, and straight up outplaying than those above them who can leverage their own strengths harder and to more success.
edit:
spacies recovery options individually are bad and easy to gimp
they just have SO GOD DAMN MANY options between angles on their Up B (don't they have like hundreds of angles technically?), shortening side B's, using different ways to get to platforms, etc.
if you guess which option they are going for its often just a dead space animal then and there, but getting the read on a competent spacie is hard
some characters very effectively force them into suboptimal positions where they can only use of a couple options though and can then cover those couple options, Sheik comes to mind
That's kind of how he works.
Some characters just can't really handle his onstage mobility, and/or his few good options (tend to be Nair, Uair, grabs or more dash dancing... or just going manmode with raw approaches that work when they shouldn't) actually work well against them. Once Falcon confirms a hit he can just open up on you and put you in a bad position where he can create another opening with ease, or just outright kill you.
Then you have characters that can actually handle his options, so Falcon has to rely more and more on capitalizing from their mistakes or raw approaches working out (which again they shouldn't... even when they do). The end result of Falcon getting a hit is usually the same for any character...
I feel like Falcon's place in the tier list will basically reflect characters that can handle his options and characters that can't all too well, which is fairly similar to Melee imo. Of course you'll see exceptions, but in general the characters at the top have great neutral games that can deal with Falcon, and worse neutral games, and hence will tend to have more trouble with Falcon's options, will be farther down.
I see Falcon basically as relatively strong as he was in Melee. Like, say Falcon is top 8 in Melee out of 28 he's maybe top 15 in Project M's 41. A "high tier" character that sort of represents the barrier to entry if you will to the really damn good characters. Granted in PM going down lower than Falcon in the tier list isn't too much of a drop anymore, and I don't really think you get a big drop until you approach the bottom few characters. Even the bottom few characters can succeed to some degree, but they are going to be more reliant on inexperience, capitalizing on mistakes, and straight up outplaying than those above them who can leverage their own strengths harder and to more success.
edit:
spacies recovery options individually are bad and easy to gimp
they just have SO GOD DAMN MANY options between angles on their Up B (don't they have like hundreds of angles technically?), shortening side B's, using different ways to get to platforms, etc.
if you guess which option they are going for its often just a dead space animal then and there, but getting the read on a competent spacie is hard
some characters very effectively force them into suboptimal positions where they can only use of a couple options though and can then cover those couple options, Sheik comes to mind
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- Joined
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- 26,560
a better question would be why wasn't she there in the first place
like seriously she hasn't changed much since 2001 what is wrong with people
QQQQQQQ7777777
Smash Champion
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YOU CHANGED FOX AND FALCO BY 1 POINT! FOX AND FALCO ARE NOW LOW TIER! Y U CHANGE THINGZ!
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the lowest of tires
I guess if the only kind of shiek play you've ever seen was M2K's, sure she was nerfed
but if you play like someone like KK then she might as well have been considered buffed b/c you wouldn't have cared much about what was nerfed and what was buffed could help you greatly
but if you play like someone like KK then she might as well have been considered buffed b/c you wouldn't have cared much about what was nerfed and what was buffed could help you greatly
Professor Pro
Smash Legend
LOL PAL Sheik mains would be happy. NTSC people are just spoilt.
placebo effect, certain matches aren't as free now. 7-3s become 6-4s, matchups against characters who were low-tier in melee are suddenly even. when you have a situation where the worst low-tier in P:M rivals as many options + uses as a mid-high in melee, this happens
she's still top 10 at worst, but even a good player using bottom 3 can contest with the top 10, so, compared to the giant gap that was shiek vs. melee mid tiers, she might be considered worse to them
she's still top 10 at worst, but even a good player using bottom 3 can contest with the top 10, so, compared to the giant gap that was shiek vs. melee mid tiers, she might be considered worse to them
Scidadle
Smash Champion
PAL is superiorrrr
Vashimus
Smash Master
Sheik doesn't molest the cast hard enough.
jtm94
Smash Lord
There are plenty characters with SUPER linear recoveries. Falcon is fine as is.
I personally like Sheik more in PM because it seems like her short hop is much lower for some reason. Other than that it's all similar enough for me to cross between Melee and PM.
I think Yoshi is more or less the new Ivy, in that I think it is fairly easy to use Yoshi on an okay level. That side smash is SO fast and not only hits hard, but sends low.. Yoshi doesn't even really have "bad" moves. He's very standard, but I don't quite think broken. As it is the cast is more or less perfect except Ivy STILL needs more balancing. The MU is much more manageable, but it is still ridiculous for many of the same reasons and UpB KOs non-floaty characters at like 70%.
I personally like Sheik more in PM because it seems like her short hop is much lower for some reason. Other than that it's all similar enough for me to cross between Melee and PM.
I think Yoshi is more or less the new Ivy, in that I think it is fairly easy to use Yoshi on an okay level. That side smash is SO fast and not only hits hard, but sends low.. Yoshi doesn't even really have "bad" moves. He's very standard, but I don't quite think broken. As it is the cast is more or less perfect except Ivy STILL needs more balancing. The MU is much more manageable, but it is still ridiculous for many of the same reasons and UpB KOs non-floaty characters at like 70%.
The REAL question is, what's Giga Bowser's tier position?
EDIT: for those of you who can't tell this was a joke not to be elaborated upon but HEY
Also, are there still people upset about Ivy? I feel like 3.0 made her a lot more fun, for both players in the match.
EDIT: for those of you who can't tell this was a joke not to be elaborated upon but HEY
Also, are there still people upset about Ivy? I feel like 3.0 made her a lot more fun, for both players in the match.
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metroid1117
Smash Master
Considering how massive he is, how he can't be grabbed, and how he can armor through most attacks, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if he was the best.
Hungry Headcrab
Smash Ace
Giga Bowser barely has any sort of a metagame developed, don't you think you guys are jumping the gun a little bit?
QQQQQQQ7777777
Smash Champion
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ignore this
SixSaw
Smash Journeyman
I agree with Headcrab. Call me when Giga Bowser wins a major tourney.
Pseudomaniac
Smash Journeyman
I think Giga Bowser, right now, feels incomplete. Maybe replace down B with a shine?
jtm94
Smash Lord
I know of a few people who are still loosely upset about Ivy. I think she is still completely viable and really didn't lose much power with her new form.
I am overall satisfied with the changes, aside from UpB being way too good now. Everything else is perfect.
I am overall satisfied with the changes, aside from UpB being way too good now. Everything else is perfect.
giga bowser consensus: there is NEVER going to be a point where he's ever allowed don't be silly
though now there's going to be some prick who tries to play him in tournament because "I MEAN TECHNICALLY THE RULES DON'T MENTION IT"
though now there's going to be some prick who tries to play him in tournament because "I MEAN TECHNICALLY THE RULES DON'T MENTION IT"
Sashimi
Smash Ace
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- 704
inb4 Mew2King
Vale
Smash Ace
- Joined
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This is me.
Check out this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/swankys-sideshow-diddy-kong-video-arkive-and-kritique-thread.331967 for Tons of diddy play. Specifically the videos of bladewise that gimpyfish posted on the 3rd page are great to watch. Also look here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSegp5oehj0 and here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm75tTMXYzQ for some other diddy players.
I personally love diddy and think he has all the options to compete for a top 8 spot on a tier list. He has tools to fit every playstyle or situation. Has crazy (and I mean crazy) mix-up potential with bannanas, side-b, and tech chases that convert into a high reward combo or tech chase extension fairly easily. He also has the tools to play a low-risk low-reward game with his projectiles, and has the ability to hold momentum of a match through sheer mobility and stage control.
JediLink
Smash Ace
It would be so rad if Giga Bowser was balanced and then made legal. Please tell me I'm not the only one that wants to see this.
jtm94
Smash Lord
I just recently picked up Diddy. He has tons of things going for him. Just his bananas alone will crush noobs and people who are unfamiliar with the matchup. People who start to catch on to the uses of bananas can be thrown off when they're used differently.
GIGA BOWSER:
He isn't even that good. HE has crazy super armor and can't be grabbed. Other than that he's so large one hit leads into a 100% death combo on him. He isn't heavy either, and can be star KOd rather easily.
GIGA BOWSER:
He isn't even that good. HE has crazy super armor and can't be grabbed. Other than that he's so large one hit leads into a 100% death combo on him. He isn't heavy either, and can be star KOd rather easily.
QQQQQQQ7777777
Smash Champion
- Joined
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Your not the only one, but is it really possible to make a Final Smash balanced with it`s not Final Smash counterpart while at the same time balancing the Final Smashes and not making them all useless?
Scidadle
Smash Champion
Please no. I don't think it is/would be any fun to fight a giga bowser player. Ungrabbable, uncomboable, generally just a pretty boring fight even if he were balanced. Which I have absolutely no idea how that would be possible.