Tier List Speculation

[Brim]

We don't determine the tier list by the characters that we can and can't beat. Fox and Falco are ranked the highest because their metagames are the most developed and probably no other character is going to succeed as much as those two because the metagames of those characters aren't as well developed. This is why tier lists change from time to time.



I doubt that he is A-tier, but he does feel really good to me. Some people here don't think he is very good at all, so I'm responding to their comments. We can't determine the tier list because basically every character in this game is amazingly good. Some people also think that DDD is bottom tier in this game, but I highly disagree with that for multiple reasons. His grab game is great, chain-grabs on certain characters if the person doesn't DI properly, powerful moves that can kill early, great gimp game, range etc.

To be perfectly fair I was going off of Brawl tier list. So, I could easily be light-years off.

 

[Brim]

Just adding-on: and it seems Olimar only received buffs... So there's that!

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

To be perfectly fair I was going off of Brawl tier list. So, I could easily be light-years off.

Yeah, I'd say you are. Judging P:M characters by a Brawl tier list will lead to a lot of inaccurate conclusions.

 

[Brim]

Yeah, I'd say you are. Judging P:M characters by a Brawl tier list will lead to a lot of inaccurate conclusions.

He still seems incredibly good though, I mean like I said earlier: he seems to have only gotten buffs.

Plz don't hesitate to correct me if I'm wrong [as I often am].

 

[Brim]

Also, side-note as to how I could be wrong:

-> Buffs don't always lead to a strong character, just...better, in one form or another.

 

[Ghetto Blush]

He still seems incredibly good though, I mean like I said earlier: he seems to have only gotten buffs.

Plz don't hesitate to correct me if I'm wrong [as I often am].

even if he has been buffed, which is highly debatable mind you, you're not taking into account not only the fundamental changes from Brawl to PM in terms of physics, but also the changes to every other character from Brawl to PM

you can't analyze how good one character is without comparing him to the rest of the cast and how well he does against them

 

[MLGF]

I feel like Olimar is really underrated, not innately good mind you, and all it's going to take to show us is some really patient player who the entire audience will hate watching because they're just innately boring to witness.
CoughJigglypuffCough

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

He hasn't been only buffed. He now can only have 4 pikmin at a time now instead of the 6 that he could have in Brawl. That's the only nerf I can think of

 

[The_NZA]

I want to know an average idea on what people think the top 10 are, in no particular order. I dont like the way some tier lists are written here, which are basically 'my friend uses this character and I cant beat them so obv top tier'. Its stupid when theres so many characters and you cant POSSIBLY give an accurate estimate on them all when you probably havent seen 80% of potential matchups. People should put more weight on what is happening elsewhere and look for trends in the top 3. And most importantly... DO NOT discount 1-off anecdotal data because it seems every goddam tournament has a new character winning.

From what I can see, (and I've been looking) a trend has
Mario
Fox
Falco
Marth

As very common top 3 characters, but characters like Sheik, Sonic, Link and Wario consistently have very good results. Theres obviously many more, but those ones stuck out to me

Who else would round out a top 10? Would any other character legitimately displace the top 8 I have seen (where by that I mean, knock them out of the 10 completely)

I won't comment on the new characters since its far too early.

Fox, Falco, Sheik, Ivysaur, Mario, Lucas, Metaknight, Marth, Pit, Wario

 

[Thor]

That's the only nerf I can think of

He lost the super armor frames on his whistle. I wanted to super armor fully-charged flare blade, but no.

Fox, Falco, Ivysaur, Mario, Lucas, some other characters (Marth after seeing Dr. Peepee's Marth demolish some other players). I think Link is better than people give him credit for (and recall M2K saying on a stream somewhere that Link is actually super good, although that was in a 2.6 tournament) but am uncertain that he's top 10. I also think Dedede is not actually as bad as people say he is but I'm also not convinced he's in the top half of the cast. I also need to watch a lot more PM MK since all I can do is go into turbo mode and uair people and be like "that's almost slower than the Brawl uair chains" but a lot of people here say he's top 5 or top 3 or whatever.

 

[Sashimi]

I want to know an average idea on what people think the top 10 are, in no particular order. I dont like the way some tier lists are written here, which are basically 'my friend uses this character and I cant beat them so obv top tier'. Its stupid when theres so many characters and you cant POSSIBLY give an accurate estimate on them all when you probably havent seen 80% of potential matchups. People should put more weight on what is happening elsewhere and look for trends in the top 3. And most importantly... DO NOT discount 1-off anecdotal data because it seems every goddam tournament has a new character winning.

From what I can see, (and I've been looking) a trend has
Mario
Fox
Falco
Marth

As very common top 3 characters, but characters like Sheik, Sonic, Link and Wario consistently have very good results. Theres obviously many more, but those ones stuck out to me

Who else would round out a top 10? Would any other character legitimately displace the top 8 I have seen (where by that I mean, knock them out of the 10 completely)

In no particular order:

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

I want to know an average idea on what people think the top 10 are, in no particular order. I dont like the way some tier lists are written here, which are basically 'my friend uses this character and I cant beat them so obv top tier'. Its stupid when theres so many characters and you cant POSSIBLY give an accurate estimate on them all when you probably havent seen 80% of potential matchups. People should put more weight on what is happening elsewhere and look for trends in the top 3. And most importantly... DO NOT discount 1-off anecdotal data because it seems every goddam tournament has a new character winning.

From what I can see, (and I've been looking) a trend has
Mario
Fox
Falco
Marth

As very common top 3 characters, but characters like Sheik, Sonic, Link and Wario consistently have very good results. Theres obviously many more, but those ones stuck out to me

Who else would round out a top 10? Would any other character legitimately displace the top 8 I have seen (where by that I mean, knock them out of the 10 completely)

In no particular order:

 

[Soft Serve]

You're all forgetting Diddy.

Diddy for secret sleeping god tier.


My personal top 10, in order:
1) Fox
2) Sheik/sheilda
3-4-5 tie) Lucas Diddy Falco
6-7-8 tie) Mario Link Meta
9/10 Wolf and wario.

ZSS, peach, Ivy and Pit would be right below there Imo.

 

[Brim]

Also, side-note as to how I could be wrong:

-> Buffs don't always lead to a strong character, just...better, in one form or another.

even if he has been buffed, which is highly debatable mind you, you're not taking into account not only the fundamental changes from Brawl to PM in terms of physics, but also the changes to every other character from Brawl to PM

you can't analyze how good one character is without comparing him to the rest of the cast and how well he does against them

I'm well aware of this. I have yet, to actually try Olimar for myself in the newest version of PM, but just even the preview videos about him show wonderful promise. Especially, how effective the White pikmin seem to be now, considering their "explosive abilities".
My mistake on not taking any time to actually compare him to any of the characters though; that was my fault. Personally, I just feel like it comes down to how well the player can manage the Pikmin, and if he can figure out how to do it effectively. Being able to manage the Pikmin doesn't matter for a damn if the player can't access the proper Pikmin or even the right amount of Pikmin.
Granted I'm not much of a Olimar player.

 

[Brim]

You're all forgetting Diddy.

Diddy for secret sleeping god tier.


My personal top 10, in order:
1) Fox
2) Sheik/sheilda
3-4-5 tie) Lucas Diddy Falco
6-7-8 tie) Mario Link Meta
9/10 Wolf and wario.

ZSS, peach, Ivy and Pit would be right below there Imo.

If he can intercept players on recoveries like he used to...he might as well be on God tier.

 

[trash?]

olimar's entire game plan is laming it out until he finds good pikmin, except, unlike brawl, he's not in an environment where he can easily play keepaway without inevitably getting hit with mixup after mixup

 

[Pseudomaniac]

Top 10? In no particular order, probably Fox, Falco, Wolf, Shiek, Meta Knight, Mario, Lucas, Snake, Diddy Kong, Wario.

 

[Strong Badam]

top 10 in no particular order: fox falco sheik mk wolf peach diddy lucas marth mario

 

[guedes the brawler]

why don't you guys ban the popular characters for a little while, or do side-tournaments where you can't use them? This would encourage people to use the other characters.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

why don't you guys ban the popular characters for a little while, or do side-tournaments where you can't use them? This would encourage people to use the other characters.

It`s not that simple.

 

[Vashimus]

why don't you guys ban the popular characters for a little while, or do side-tournaments where you can't use them? This would encourage people to use the other characters.

People should use who they want to use. Banning the most popular characters doesn't make everything better. Imagine Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, Jiggs, Peach, Falcon, and Icies banned from Melee tournaments. It'd be pretty boring to watch, right?

People get too hung up over numbers, ratios, and whatever characters are most popular and forget that what matters more than that is the quality of the matchups.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

why don't you guys ban the popular characters for a little while, or do side-tournaments where you can't use them? This would encourage people to use the other characters.

What's that? You want to play Lucas? Too bad. We decided to ban him for being popular. Besides, it's Diddy Kong December.

 

[Sashimi]

Besides, it's Diddy Kong December.

Where do I sign up for that?



But as much as everyone would like to see more character diversity, it's not reasonable to ban characters just for being popular (who would enforce it, anyway?). It would just make people mad, and the players who like being unique and having their own character, in a game as balanced as PM, WILL bring the underused characters into the spotlight on their own, no bans needed.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

I'm surprised seeing Lucas in people's top 10s all of a sudden, what's the haps?

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

I don't think character diversity is even slightly an issue for Project M, what with people like me playing bottom-tier dorks like Ganondorf.

It's definitely not to the point where separate tournaments or bannings would be necessary. That's just silly.

I'm surprised seeing Lucas in people's top 10s all of a sudden, what's the haps?

He's good, 'nuf said.

 

[mYzeALot]

Lucas is starting to get more recognized as a pretty good character, because he is almost like a new spacie. He has a ton of options to select from for any given situation.

 

[trash?]

I'm surprised seeing Lucas in people's top 10s all of a sudden, what's the haps?

some folks always said he was good, because he had the techskill fanciness to, in theory, roll with the top tiers. then, he kind of just got buffs here and there (while the 2.6 aerial changes might be considered here or there, I consider them basically buffs, yes) when it was then assumed that he wasn't good for whatever reason, and now he's even better

 

[NightShadow6]

Top
Shielda
Fox
Falco
Lucas
MewTwo
Yoshi
Wolf

High
Mario
Marth
Meta Knight
JigglyPuff
Kirby
Peach
Diddy
Snake
IC
Sonic
Falcon

Mid
Link
ToonLink
IvySaur
ZSS
Wario
Bowser
Lucario
DK
Samus
Charizard
Pit
Luigi

Low
Roy
Ike
Ness
ROB
DDD
Olimar
Squirtle
Ganon
PIkachu
GNW
Olimar

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

I've been playing since 2.5b and have been lurking the PM threads since like May. I know that I am near the bottom of the spectrum in terms of skill and knowledge about this game, so I won't claim to really know what I'm talking about, but I thought I might as well share my personal speculation of what the current tier list might look like.

I organized it like a bell curve. I think it makes more sense that way.

S+ tier: Fox, Lucas
S- tier: Wolf, Meta Knight, Mario
A+ tier: Falco, Yoshi, Sheik, Wario
A- tier: Marth, Peach, Bowser, Diddy, Pit
B+ tier: Ivysaur, Mewtwo, Lucario, Snake, Ike, Sonic, Captain Falcon
B- tier: Jigglypuff, DK, Link, Ness, Ice Climbers(?), Zero Suit Samus
C+ tier: G&W, Kirby, Luigi, Samus, Charizard
C- tier: R.O.B, Zelda, Roy, Olimar(?)
D+ tier: Toon Link, Dedede, Pikachu
D- tier: Squirtle, Ganondorf

(I sort of guestimated on Icies and Olimar, since I don't feel confident in my understanding of those characters.)

Thoughts? What did I screw up the most?

 

[Kokomaniac]

What tools does yoshi have that makes him so top tier to everyone? Genuine question, not trying to refute, just understand

 

[mYzeALot]

Yoshi was a good character in Melee that only had a few issues that were fixed or changed to make it easier for him, such as him now being able to jump out of shield. Yoshi has ridiculous combo potential, good weight, good kill moves,ect.

 

[Vashimus]

Yoshi has very good comboability, with a lot good of options for starters, filler, and kill options. DJC along with his great air speed, low shorthop, decent fall speed and top notch low-lag aerials give him a great SHFFL and a flexible air game. His grab game is also threatening, with a ranged grab and his d-throw and up-throw that can start more combos for him. Heavy weight and a long armored double jump give him great survivability. And then on top of all that, he has the best shield in the game.

 

[Nguz95]

I've been playing since 2.5b and have been lurking the PM threads since like May. I know that I am near the bottom of the spectrum in terms of skill and knowledge about this game, so I won't claim to really know what I'm talking about, but I thought I might as well share my personal speculation of what the current tier list might look like.

I organized it like a bell curve. I think it makes more sense that way.

S+ tier: Fox, Lucas
S- tier: Wolf, Meta Knight, Mario
A+ tier: Falco, Yoshi, Sheik, Wario
A- tier: Marth, Peach, Bowser, Diddy, Pit
B+ tier: Ivysaur, Mewtwo, Lucario, Snake, Ike, Sonic, Captain Falcon
B- tier: Jigglypuff, DK, Link, Ness, Ice Climbers(?), Zero Suit Samus
C+ tier: G&W, Kirby, Luigi, Samus, Charizard
C- tier: R.O.B, Zelda, Roy, Olimar(?)
D+ tier: Toon Link, Dedede, Pikachu
D- tier: Squirtle, Ganondorf

(I sort of guestimated on Icies and Olimar, since I don't feel confident in my understanding of those characters.)

Thoughts? What did I screw up the most?

Pullin out that stats knowledge on us. Assuming it's a normal distribution? I'd say that's pretty accurate. I'm trying to find things I disagree with on this tier list, but it's pretty hard. The only thing I'm having doubts about is your Falco placement, other than that, I'd say you've managed to put together a great list!

Edit: Don't assume that your opinion isn't valid here just because you aren't good at this game. I'm no bueno at the moment, but I'll be darned if I let somebody tell me that my opinion doesn't matter just because I'm worse than them. This is a place where we share ideas. Being wrong due to inexperience is fine, but here people will explain why they are right instead of putting others down. I've had nothing but positive experiences here, and the way I have been treated has convinced me that it's always a good idea to share my own ideas.

 

[burgerkong]

I've been playing since 2.5b and have been lurking the PM threads since like May. I know that I am near the bottom of the spectrum in terms of skill and knowledge about this game, so I won't claim to really know what I'm talking about, but I thought I might as well share my personal speculation of what the current tier list might look like.

I organized it like a bell curve. I think it makes more sense that way.

S+ tier: Fox, Lucas
S- tier: Wolf, Meta Knight, Mario
A+ tier: Falco, Yoshi, Sheik, Wario
A- tier: Marth, Peach, Bowser, Diddy, Pit
B+ tier: Ivysaur, Mewtwo, Lucario, Snake, Ike, Sonic, Captain Falcon
B- tier: Jigglypuff, DK, Link, Ness, Ice Climbers(?), Zero Suit Samus
C+ tier: G&W, Kirby, Luigi, Samus, Charizard
C- tier: R.O.B, Zelda, Roy, Olimar(?)
D+ tier: Toon Link, Dedede, Pikachu
D- tier: Squirtle, Ganondorf

(I sort of guestimated on Icies and Olimar, since I don't feel confident in my understanding of those characters.)

Thoughts? What did I screw up the most?

I'm new to Smashboards and PM as well, so it's interesting seeing the tier list from a fellow newcomer's perspective.

I'd say my tier list would work out the same way atm, but it'll likely change as more and bigger PM tournaments occur in 2014. My main differences:
- Falco and Lucas would likely switch places. As it is, Falco's laser game and overall spacie-ness is too good to put him anywhere else atm, and his tournament results certainly show it.
- Bowser probably down, he's been gradually getting nerfed and he's been slowly getting pushed out of top 8 showings as people are getting used to his armor. Ivysaur would probably take his place. I dunno how far he should go down atm though.

I'm just hoping we see some sick Yoshi players to see his full potential, because though everyone's hyping him up I'm more of a results-oriented guy. Anyone know any good Diddy Kongs? Haven't really seen any in the tourney vids I've watched, though maybe I've missed someone.

 

[Vashimus]

V3ctorman was doing some pretty hype stuff with Yoshi on his stream, and he fared really well against Calabrel for his first time playing. He's not playing PM competitively since he wants to stick with Melee, but he's willing to help out and share tech.

You can watch the archive: http://www.twitch.tv/v3ctorman/b/491740303

 

[Scidadle]

I don't understand lucas being top 10 and how Falcon and Link aren't in peoples top 10. That's crazy to me

 

[Strong Badam]

that's a pretty convincing argument scidadle
I have been converted

 

[burgerkong]

V3ctorman was doing some pretty hype stuff with Yoshi on his stream, and he fared really well against Calabrel for his first time playing. He's not playing PM competitively since he wants to stick with Melee, but he's willing to help out and share tech.

You can watch the archive: http://www.twitch.tv/v3ctorman/b/491740303

Sweet, thanks man. Yeah, I've seen V3ctorman's play and he's an awesome Yoshi, a shame he's not going to be beasting in PM with Yoshi but props to him for sticking it out. I personally won't be playing Yoshi just because I just can't seem to get used to those DJC chars, but this'll be really helpful for my brother.

 

[Oracle]

Dear everyone who puts olimar low
You are all crazy

I dont want to put anybody low all the characters are sooooooooo good

 

[GMaster171]

Oracle is correct, I find it harder to make a bottom 5 than it is to make a top 5.

dat balance