D
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as long as you have good CP options, your character is holistically more tournament viable than a "better" character with no real CP advantages. see: melee YL, brawl DDD
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Ice Climbers C tier? Whyyyyy
Pikmin is one of my favorite series ever made. I enjoyed the first so much that I started to speedrun it, and still do occasional runs nowadays and it doesn't get old.
I think Pikmin is absolutely brilliant, and I love Olimar as a character throughout the series.
And I absolutely can't stand Olimar as a character in Smash. Like, I want to like him. I try my damnest to like him. And I just can't find any enjoyment in playing him because his Brawl incarnation feels so uninspired and his PM incarnation is more or less his Brawl incarnation.
Cause grab release points are off. They'll move up after bug-fix patch.
Oh, so that isn't just me. I could've sworn something felt weird about him.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
so is that patch coming out tomorrow? ST said likely before the new year
MLGF
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2013
- Messages
- 1,922
OK, I'm gonna give my inverse story.
Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance is my favorite Fire Emblem and Ike is by far my favorite Lord in the series.
I played the games after Brawl, but when I got interested in Smash again thanks to Project M and I was determined to main Ike if his style was even remotely fun for me and... well... I picked up Project M during Demo 2, so that sums it up what happened. I got some hate for using him, but it was honestly a character loyaltyl thing (although, I doubt anyone believed/cared when I explained that) Been maining Ike ever since and through ups and downs he's been my main and now I'm pretty good. I doubt I'm amazing by any means, but I've got literally all of Ike's quick draw techs down to a T.
So yeah, I think even if you have a remote interest in the character's playstyle and love the character, then this often applies.
Also, as stupid as it sounds, I dropped Ness for the inverse reason. I didn't enjoy Earthbound and maining him felt... really hollow.
I dunno, I'm all for character loyalty and such. I'll never main a character I hate, I'll sub 'em if they're fun, and I try to main characters I care for.
alright, SO
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1ygsKqOfBhZtJZUgMM_qXrfYt5n6Un6Z_mwJyonNnF8g/viewform
I'm doing this again. same ol' gig, you rate characters on goodness, I average them out, and hopefully the result is general community opinion
note that, again, this exists not as a definitive guide, but more as something you can look at and, over time (hopefully, assuming I put in any effort) see notable metagame changes. knowing this, I'm at least setting up two: the one you see here is pre-APEX. once that tourney's done (and, presumably, perceptions about characters change through it) I'll set up a post-APEX survey
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1ygsKqOfBhZtJZUgMM_qXrfYt5n6Un6Z_mwJyonNnF8g/viewform
I'm doing this again. same ol' gig, you rate characters on goodness, I average them out, and hopefully the result is general community opinion
note that, again, this exists not as a definitive guide, but more as something you can look at and, over time (hopefully, assuming I put in any effort) see notable metagame changes. knowing this, I'm at least setting up two: the one you see here is pre-APEX. once that tourney's done (and, presumably, perceptions about characters change through it) I'll set up a post-APEX survey
Latch
Smash Apprentice
oh god gotta run in and defend olimar... the strugz
Olimar plays much more like a brawl character than most of the PM cast, from my experience. That being said, he can't be discounted. My reasoning:
A. he hits like a tank on moves with quick startup (none of that Bowser fsmash **** this is purple usmash land, boyz)
B. uh... very good disjoint? On like, most moves?
C. Stupid damage racking abilities (flowered white pikmin OP)
D. recovery not bad, also pretty challenging to edge guard. Disjointed fair bair uair for protecting yourself on way back, plus tethers in PM are really safe.
My impressions, obviously not biased at all
Olimar plays much more like a brawl character than most of the PM cast, from my experience. That being said, he can't be discounted. My reasoning:
A. he hits like a tank on moves with quick startup (none of that Bowser fsmash **** this is purple usmash land, boyz)
B. uh... very good disjoint? On like, most moves?
C. Stupid damage racking abilities (flowered white pikmin OP)
D. recovery not bad, also pretty challenging to edge guard. Disjointed fair bair uair for protecting yourself on way back, plus tethers in PM are really safe.
My impressions, obviously not biased at all
Fish&Herbs19
Smash Journeyman
I'm actually one of those people who like Olimar. He does feel alot like a Brawl character, but something about him attracts me to his playstyle. Olimar has a good grab game and his Pikmin work as a great projectile, canceling many other projectiles such as Samus charge shots. Micro-managing pikmin is difficult but extremely rewarding. He isn't that bad in my opinion.
I spent like 4 hours playing Olimar today, trying to figure out if my hate is justified.
He is decent against characters that have trouble closing out stocks. Giving olimar more time with a set of pikmin let him choose what he wants to play around with for the matchup and let them flower. Generally I like to stack purples, yellows, and I'll keep blues because they are decent. Reds are okay, decent killing power. Whites are just something to throw at the opponent to rack up dmg while you stall out your pikmin growth. Characters that can pressure him very well and force mistakes in his line management do very well in closing out his stock and making him start over.
Its still very very sad that he has no hitboxes without pikmin. I was hoping for at least weak hits on his aerials around his hands, but nope. If you ever find yourself without pikmin, say you lost them durring your recovery, good luck finding any breathing room to pluck a new one.
On a side note, Olimar with just one flowered purple feels like you're playing marth with Ike's sword.
He is decent against characters that have trouble closing out stocks. Giving olimar more time with a set of pikmin let him choose what he wants to play around with for the matchup and let them flower. Generally I like to stack purples, yellows, and I'll keep blues because they are decent. Reds are okay, decent killing power. Whites are just something to throw at the opponent to rack up dmg while you stall out your pikmin growth. Characters that can pressure him very well and force mistakes in his line management do very well in closing out his stock and making him start over.
Its still very very sad that he has no hitboxes without pikmin. I was hoping for at least weak hits on his aerials around his hands, but nope. If you ever find yourself without pikmin, say you lost them durring your recovery, good luck finding any breathing room to pluck a new one.
On a side note, Olimar with just one flowered purple feels like you're playing marth with Ike's sword.
burgerkong
Smash Rookie
As someone who just started playing PM recently, I have a question to Hylian and the other more experienced players out there.
I noticed that Meta Knight is ranked S-tier by Hylian in his tentative tier list, and I'm hoping to find out why. This seems to contrast what I've heard in some of the commentary, where I've heard Meta Knight suffers from his nerfs and his susceptibility to crouch cancelling, and there doesn't appear to be any sort of dominant Meta Knight players out there (the only one I've seen is Squeak in S@X Weeklies, and he's good but it's not like he's won any big tournaments).
I'm looking to try out the new characters from PM since I play Melee extensively with my friends/roommates in uni (pretty scrubby at the moment but getting more consistent w/wavedashing and L-cancelling and the like), so I was hoping someone could shed light as to why he's considered good. Thanks in advance!
I noticed that Meta Knight is ranked S-tier by Hylian in his tentative tier list, and I'm hoping to find out why. This seems to contrast what I've heard in some of the commentary, where I've heard Meta Knight suffers from his nerfs and his susceptibility to crouch cancelling, and there doesn't appear to be any sort of dominant Meta Knight players out there (the only one I've seen is Squeak in S@X Weeklies, and he's good but it's not like he's won any big tournaments).
I'm looking to try out the new characters from PM since I play Melee extensively with my friends/roommates in uni (pretty scrubby at the moment but getting more consistent w/wavedashing and L-cancelling and the like), so I was hoping someone could shed light as to why he's considered good. Thanks in advance!
Ghetto Blush
Smash Apprentice
I don't get how so many people can be so concrete in regards to their opinions on who the worst character is and yet simultaneously the exact opposite when talk of who the best character is. Very few people make sweeping generalizations as to who the best character is. This isn't even keeping into account that the general group of characters that most people consider the best are backed by a metagame that spans years.
But when it comes to who the worst is everyone just goes, "yeah xx is the worst fa'sho".
like wat
But when it comes to who the worst is everyone just goes, "yeah xx is the worst fa'sho".
like wat
Fish&Herbs19
Smash Journeyman
Metaknight has an amazing grab game and is great at tech-chases. B-throw is great for throwing your opponent offstage, his up throw can set up into various other aerials, and his down throw normally sets up into a tech chase, which he excels at, or a punish such as his instant dimensional cape. His nair, and his bair are (in my opinion), his two best aerials, especially his nair which is great for gimping and great for setting up combos. Although his tilts can be CCed, he is still a great character.
or maybe it's just that balance at the top is a lot closer than the balance at the bottom
it's pretty easy to see which characters have clear faults in their neutral game and perhaps more importantly why they function poorly in the neutral
Ghetto Blush
Smash Apprentice
are you sure you're talking about the bottom in comparison to the bottom or the bottom in comparison to mid-high tier? if it's the latter than I agree with you, but if you're talking about the bottom barrel I think the same sentiment can be applied.
ss118
Smash Master
because people ****ing suck and dont realize MK is top three in the game.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
MK is fast, has as sword, and an amazing grab. He's got no problems dealing with CCing. He also wasn't nerfed at all in 3.0, so I'm not sure where you're coming from.
For MKs, look up Oro?! and DSF.
SSB_Hello
Smash Apprentice
this will be so hard to finalize unless PM is ever finished. Due to the nature of updates and changes in the game rather than the meta, it'll be hard to make a concrete list. This is still neat to watch.
OK I answered your damn survey thing with my horribly uninformed opinions on characters... I hope you're happy!!
Fish&Herbs19
Smash Journeyman
This response made no sense whatsoever in light of the question that burgerkong was asking. Care to explain what you mean by that?
burgerkong
Smash Rookie
Thanks for the clarification! I'm completely new to Project M, so I haven't played anything but 3.0 and I'm only really going off what I've heard/seen. It's just hard to quantify MK's position as an S-tier character when he hasn't won (or placed top 3 in) any big tournaments, but I guess that says a lot about the balance of the game and perhaps the small pool of Meta Knight players out there right now in comparison to the ever-present spacies/Sheiks/Marths (who I also play
).I've seen Oro?!'s gameplay and he's pretty amazing, but from what I've seen he's more known for his ZSS and I did not know he played MK at all. Haven't seen any vids of DSF, so I'll for sure look him up.
Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
@
burgerkong
Crouch cancelling is also just a problem at very low percents and MK can get his opponent beyond 40 with one d-throw techchase
burgerkong
Crouch cancelling is also just a problem at very low percents and MK can get his opponent beyond 40 with one d-throw techchasebadass, but he'll never compete with the big boys; he's pure showboat.
ss118
Smash Master
"I noticed that Meta Knight is ranked S-tier by Hylian in his tentative tier list, and I'm hoping to find out why. This seems to contrast what I've heard in some of the commentary, where I've heard Meta Knight suffers from his nerfs and his susceptibility to crouch cancelling, and there doesn't appear to be any sort of dominant Meta Knight players out there (the only one I've seen is Squeak in S@X Weeklies, and he's good but it's not like he's won any big tournaments)."
I was responding to this tidbit.
guedes the brawler
Smash Lord
Oh you...
When it comes down to the bare-bones, smash is a fundamentally movement based game. MK happens to have amazing movement options in the air and on the ground, and had a quick disjointed moveset to back it up. People trying to play him like brawl won't find as much success as others exploring things he's capable of. A lot of characters in the game struggle against CC at low %, just the fact that MK has a good grab helps him with this a lot. He has great edgeguarding, recovery, and relatively good kill potential. He's slightly susceptible to zoning, but his dair overcomes much of that weakness. Overall, he can just be played with solid melee fundamentals that players have perfected over the years and can be very effective when played in such a manner.
Fish&Herbs19
Smash Journeyman
It has been a year since this thread was started. Approximately 7506 posts/365 days= 20.56 posts/day.
Just an interesting tidbit
Just an interesting tidbit
burgerkong
Smash Rookie
Thanks a bunch Hylian, really appreciate the response. I'll keep this in mind when I try to play him, he looks like fun but I honestly expected him to be mid tier given all the nerfs I'd seen in the changelogs. Glad to see this isn't the case, though that means another top tier character I'm gonna end up playing.
Have a happy new year, to everyone who happens to be reading this thread
At one point in a battle my brother had 3 flowered purples
Browny
Smash Hater
I want to know an average idea on what people think the top 10 are, in no particular order. I dont like the way some tier lists are written here, which are basically 'my friend uses this character and I cant beat them so obv top tier'. Its stupid when theres so many characters and you cant POSSIBLY give an accurate estimate on them all when you probably havent seen 80% of potential matchups. People should put more weight on what is happening elsewhere and look for trends in the top 3. And most importantly... DO NOT discount 1-off anecdotal data because it seems every goddam tournament has a new character winning.
From what I can see, (and I've been looking) a trend has
Mario
Fox
Falco
Marth
As very common top 3 characters, but characters like Sheik, Sonic, Link and Wario consistently have very good results. Theres obviously many more, but those ones stuck out to me
Who else would round out a top 10? Would any other character legitimately displace the top 8 I have seen (where by that I mean, knock them out of the 10 completely)
From what I can see, (and I've been looking) a trend has
Mario
Fox
Falco
Marth
As very common top 3 characters, but characters like Sheik, Sonic, Link and Wario consistently have very good results. Theres obviously many more, but those ones stuck out to me
Who else would round out a top 10? Would any other character legitimately displace the top 8 I have seen (where by that I mean, knock them out of the 10 completely)
ss118
Smash Master
Fox Falco Shiek Marth Metaknight Mario Ivysaur(still)... idk after that exactly. Wolf probably because I imagine he's really good and everyone seems to agree with me, I think Ike is one of the better characters atm and is also probably up there... I don't feel Peach is as good because she feels just slightly weaker and her game plan has issues with certain characters, but I'm not exactly sure who is better than her. I'm afraid Link is gonna get nerfed again if I say he might actually be top 10. I also personally feel DDD is top 10, but I know MANY disagree with me on that. There's 11.
Vashimus
Smash Master
First underlined part is bull****, and I've seen this thread longer than you have.
Second one, why should I look for trends in tier lists elsewhere? The popularity of an idea has absolutely no bearing on its validity on my personal list. I don't care if every single person in this thread puts Mario in top 3. He barely scratches top 10 in my eyes, and he's probably staying that way for the foreseeable future.
There is no concrete list or even top 10 because 1) P:M tiers are super condensed because of the balance and 2) it's all a matter of how you see the game. For every person who thinks spacies, MK and Sheik are top 5, there's another person who doesn't. And all those people who disagree will have different top 5's themselves. Averaging them out will still leave you with something half the people will agree with and half won't.
If you want to do the data anyway, be my guest. They're in alphabetical order.
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arcticfox8
Smash Champion
Marth, Mario, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Meta Knight, Sheik, Ivysaur. Other than that idk. I feel like Roy could be up there..... People seem to like Peach and Wario. I think Ike could also be up there. Samus seems pretty good, too. I may not be the best judge ha ha. I'm just basing this on gameplay I've watched and personal experience.
Browny
Smash Hater
No its not bull****, because it is literally (and I use that in the pre-2013 context of the word) for people to have witnessed anywhere near an appropriate amount of matchups to make accurate calls.
This isnt like in brawl where you had a million metaknights/snake/falco dominating, but one good person used wario or G&W and made you think they were an anomaly because there was only one person capable of pulling such results, therefore you discounted their results. Here I am seeing just about EVERY character being an anomaly, even the supposed guaranteed top 4-5 dont have more than a handful of players and to be perfectly honest, I have seen more evidence of Sonic being top tier than fox, falco or marth in this game.
I am not seeing any trends whatsoever in tier lists posted here except Mario and that is honestly it. I know its hard to compile somewhat accurate lists with limited data, but it is out there, I'm just not seeing anyone reference it.
Effort needs to be put into removing the natural bias towards good players picking good characters from melee/brawl and not trying other ones. Naturally the most skilled players in melee and brawl will use the same character in PM, they would probably win tournaments no matter who they chose, but they go with what they know. This creates a massive skew towards the usual suspects of Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth and MK. But seeing those characters take up a lot of top 8 spaces in tournaments proves nothing other than they are popular. Theres a large amount of characters who place higher than that lot, but are more rare.
I admit I haven't been following PM for too long, but from all the videos I've watched and results I've seen, you get the seasoned pros dominating with their melee/brawl mains, but then new people come along using other characters and do extremely well.
All I'm really saying is that in this thread I haven't seen anyone take a really objective look into what characters are good, there is just TOO many viable characters. The characters that are good are the ones that people all around the world bet money on them, and win. And from what I have seen, the amount of money won and lost in this game, does not point at all towards supposed top tier characters actually being in that money-making tier.
This isnt like in brawl where you had a million metaknights/snake/falco dominating, but one good person used wario or G&W and made you think they were an anomaly because there was only one person capable of pulling such results, therefore you discounted their results. Here I am seeing just about EVERY character being an anomaly, even the supposed guaranteed top 4-5 dont have more than a handful of players and to be perfectly honest, I have seen more evidence of Sonic being top tier than fox, falco or marth in this game.
I am not seeing any trends whatsoever in tier lists posted here except Mario and that is honestly it. I know its hard to compile somewhat accurate lists with limited data, but it is out there, I'm just not seeing anyone reference it.
Effort needs to be put into removing the natural bias towards good players picking good characters from melee/brawl and not trying other ones. Naturally the most skilled players in melee and brawl will use the same character in PM, they would probably win tournaments no matter who they chose, but they go with what they know. This creates a massive skew towards the usual suspects of Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth and MK. But seeing those characters take up a lot of top 8 spaces in tournaments proves nothing other than they are popular. Theres a large amount of characters who place higher than that lot, but are more rare.
I admit I haven't been following PM for too long, but from all the videos I've watched and results I've seen, you get the seasoned pros dominating with their melee/brawl mains, but then new people come along using other characters and do extremely well.
All I'm really saying is that in this thread I haven't seen anyone take a really objective look into what characters are good, there is just TOO many viable characters. The characters that are good are the ones that people all around the world bet money on them, and win. And from what I have seen, the amount of money won and lost in this game, does not point at all towards supposed top tier characters actually being in that money-making tier.
Brim
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2010
- Messages
- 819
- NNID
- Bitterbub
That bad? Isn't he still like in the A-tier? I know a lot changed, but I thought Olimar was still REALLY good. I mean the guy has a lot of ways to annoy the living crap out of you, and like you said a great grab game.
Fish&Herbs19
Smash Journeyman
We don't determine the tier list by the characters that we can and can't beat. Fox and Falco are ranked the highest because their metagames are the most developed and probably no other character is going to succeed as much as those two because the metagames of those characters aren't as well developed. This is why tier lists change from time to time.
I doubt that he is A-tier, but he does feel really good to me. Some people here don't think he is very good at all, so I'm responding to their comments. We can't determine the tier list because basically every character in this game is amazingly good. Some people also think that DDD is bottom tier in this game, but I highly disagree with that for multiple reasons. His grab game is great, chain-grabs on certain characters if the person doesn't DI properly, powerful moves that can kill early, great gimp game, range etc.