Tier List Speculation

[MysteryRevengerson]

In regards to nerfs and buffs (and almost related to the discussion at hand) Majora's Mask is PMBR.

 

[Nguz95]

What game did that video come from? It looks like the guys at Phillips decided to make a glorious new 3D CDi game...

 

[deadjames]

I don't know what you all are on about. Mewtwo is boss. i think its silly just because a character isn't sheik weight or heavier, the character feels like a Brawl character. Fact: the only character that still feels like a Brawl Character is DDD because he actually functions in the game in a pretty similar way. I still miss the running chaingrabs. they were so cool.

You've obviously never seen G-regulate play D3 because that character can be played extremely fast, not to mention he has tons of combos that didn't exist in Brawl, also I think you're getting weight confused with fall speed because D3 is definitely heavier than Sheik, but also floatier.

 

[The_NZA]

Pretty sure Zhime is just fed up with the same old complaining led by Umbreon and DMG. They seriously wont stop til they have a bunch of uninformed posters siding with them from all the subliminal Zelda hate theyve been sprinkling over SWF. Zelda has been nerfed in 3.0 (Fair and Bair Sweetspot KB reduced, more lag with land cancel Nayus), and the fact that she is still picked apart is kind of unsettling. Here we have a character thats never been good in a Smash game to date, but once Zhime comes along and actually does work with Zelda, the salt shaker pours over.

That all makes a sense. But to put things into perspective, I don't think its Zelda doing well that is bugging players like Umbreon, DMG, and many others. Its more about the play style she brings to the table, and in a way a major victory just sort of puts the spot light on a character and accelerates the conversation about that character to an earlier time.

It's not so much she's being called out because shes too good and the tourney results speak to that. Its that she's (in many peoples opinions), annoyingly designed, which has always been the case, and this conversation was incoming but its been brought to the forefront just because there's more attention on her since Zhime's success.

I think of it akin to Ness's pkfire. Ness's pkfire is overcentralizing to his character and puts an intrinsic pressure on Ness players to use it if they want to do well. It is almost always Ness's best option in neutral, with its space coverage, lack of lag, and its (sometimes enormous) reward on shield or not on shield. Some Ness players owe a partof their success to their clever usage and exploitation of the tool (Wiisnake will admit to it, and Awestin also uses it a good deal) while other players like Calabrel prefer not using it because it's not necessarily a very well designed move. If pkfire saw a nerf and other more substantive aspects of Ness's game saw a buff, many players who love it would be mad, but the character himself would be in a better place.

I don't care if 3.0 dropped demo from the name-- ill be severely disappointed if they don't take the same care to rebalance old characters to create the best experience.

 

[The_NZA]

You've obviously never seen G-regulate play D3 because that character can be played extremely fast, not to mention he has tons of combos that didn't exist in Brawl, also I think you're getting weight confused with fall speed because D3 is definitely heavier than Sheik, but also floatier.

semantics. I could have said weight and fall speed, but I thought the point of my message was clear enough using context clues. I was referring to how fast someone falls or moves through the air which is determined by like 4 traits in Smash. I thought it would be overkill if i mentioned them all.

 

[I Dair You]

Youre right NZA, i second Ness myself. whenever I face someone, the first thing this always complain about is PK Fire. But, its like, where would Ness be without it? Hes got **** range without it lol.

 

[deadjames]

Youre right NZA, i second Ness myself. whenever I face someone, the first thing this always complain about is PK Fire. But, its like, where would Ness be without it? Hes got **** range without it lol.

Ness is definitely not lacking in the range department he has quite a few moves with significant range.

 

[The_NZA]

Ness is definitely not lacking in the range department he has quite a few moves with significant range.

Let's play a game. I'll name a non-projectile ranged attack and then you mention a non-projectile ranged attack.
Ness's Fair.

Go.

 

[I Dair You]

lmao im not even gonna respond to that deadjames, ill just let the fellow Ness mains take it from here.
Edit quote straight from smashmods - Use ranged pressure to overcome Ness' short ranged normals, perform combos, or go in for grabs.

 

[Oracle]

I think we can agree on one thing

Turbo olimar is trash tier

 

[DrinkingFood]

at least he can chain like
dash attack into stuff

 

[Scythe]

literally every character can already do that lol

 

[Kokomaniac]

I've read nothing about ness and played him for about 15 hours in the last 4 days and that's all my experience with pm ness but here's what I know

Pk fire sucks. I mean it's really good and sets up for insane chains and combos, but I hate feeling useless without it. It's frustrating to play against and even frustrating to use because I know I would get nowhere without it so I'm trying not to use it anymore. IMO needs to do significantly less damage like 10% total with all hits and be used only for set ups and lockdown...still an interesting move, I just don't want to have to rely on it as central to my gameplay
Ness has no range without pk fire, like at all. In order to get any damage in you have to go hard or you ain't gonna get anywhere really. It's just like brawl in that way, but ness is much better here.
Pk flash is awesome now, quite a legitimate tool. His recovery is much improved as well, and the initial hitbox that gets people off yo **** when you're trying to recover is great. Still quite punishable, but balanced imo.
The djc aerials is where the complexity comes in and I love using djc bair, it's awesome aerial mobility. His fsmash is better, his usmash is better, his dsmash seems even worse lol.

 

[MonkUnit]

no giga bowser on anyone's list? =(

 

[KayB]

Its funny that everyone feels some sort of entitlement when It comes to Zelda when ppl wouldn't even dream about saying these things about fox.

But Fox gets so much **** around here.


I don't have a problem with Zelda, but I don't like her simply because, outside of a few combos and strats, I find her horrendously boring. After seeing some videos of some better play I've been willing to experiment more, but overall I haven't had much fun with her. Just my opinion, not saying that others say she isn't fun.

 

[Scythe]

i like playing as zelda and dont really mind playing against her. She's just got more tricks than melee. Maybe i'm just used to facing Cosmo's lame ass zelda lol

 

[Swann]

... was it necessary to cut his wall cling?

Lucario's wallcling out of upB was never supposed to be there in the first place. I hear there was an issue with removing it because some people had become so accustomed to it, but it was on the same level as a bugfix.

On the topic of Zelda... idk I just wall vs her and it's "boring" in the sense that it's not fast-paced and maybe no fun to watch, but I enjoy playing spacing-heavy matchups so to each their own, I suppose.

 

[otter]

It's not so much she's being called out because shes too good and the tourney results speak to that. Its that she's (in many peoples opinions), annoyingly designed, which has always been the case.

I think alot of people enjoy playing defensively, and feed off of their opponents saltiness. If we all agree that she can be beaten, but people don't feel like trying, I don't see why the conversation is still going.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Pretty sure Zhime is just fed up with the same old complaining led by Umbreon and DMG. They seriously wont stop til they have a bunch of uninformed posters siding with them from all the subliminal Zelda hate theyve been sprinkling over SWF. Zelda has been nerfed in 3.0 (Fair and Bair Sweetspot KB reduced, more lag with land cancel Nayus), and the fact that she is still picked apart is kind of unsettling. Here we have a character thats never been good in a Smash game to date, but once Zhime comes along and actually does work with Zelda, the salt shaker pours over.

DMG hasn't even been remotely vocal about Zelda. If anything it's been more Madisa and I that have been the most vocal about her design, having liked several aspects about her in 1.0 that were completely repurposed in 2.0 onward.

Note that she was probably worse as a character in 1.0, but she just had a lot more fluidity with, in particular, her Side-B's design.

 

[DMG]

I'm silent but deadly when it comes to Zelda.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I know Ryoko is against 1.0's side B because it could "just be ignored" without an active hitbox, but it was still incredibly fun to be able to set them up so quickly and have it as a fluid movement option on top. It was a sort of "fire and forget system" that let her set up a potential threat while moving around the stage quickly, compared to the current design that, while safer, has a significantly less malleable use.

 

[Ogopogo]

I'm silent when it comes to Zelda.

 

[Nguz95]

When asked about Zelda, DMG replies:

 

[Sashimi]

no giga bowser on anyone's list? =(

Giga Bowser is actually so high on every tier list that he doesn't fit in any post.

 

[Oracle]

Pk fire> giga bowser

 

[Kink-Link5]

Giga Bowser is actually so high on every tier list that he doesn't fit in any post.

As for the Rest of the cast?

 

[Ripple]

low tier. PM devs had such great insight as to who who be top tier that we only fight over who's the worst characters in the game.

just like melee

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

no giga bowser on anyone's list? =(

Ridley = Too big for Brawl, and isn't playable in Project M
Giga Bowser = Bigger than Ridley, but playable in Project M

Giga Bowser insta-ban plz

 

[Kink-Link5]

I feel like my Rest joke didn't go over very well.

 

[Deleted member]

Pretty sure Zhime is just fed up with the same old complaining led by Umbreon and DMG. They seriously wont stop til they have a bunch of uninformed posters siding with them from all the subliminal Zelda hate theyve been sprinkling over SWF. Zelda has been nerfed in 3.0 (Fair and Bair Sweetspot KB reduced, more lag with land cancel Nayus), and the fact that she is still picked apart is kind of unsettling. Here we have a character thats never been good in a Smash game to date, but once Zhime comes along and actually does work with Zelda, the salt shaker pours over.

I can see where you're coming from, but a few of your statements are not correct. But like I said, I can see where you're coming from. I'l try to articulate my exact stance to avoid confusion.

My intent is not to annoy Zhime, not to appeal to ignorant smashers, and not to see the character nerfed. As is at this current moment of 2:47 AM December 26th 2013, I believe that the character is poorly designed because several of her key components seem to discourage interaction between players in a game based on interaction. How the characters interact in the game with each other is the source of the game's depth and enjoyment, and it makes the game enjoyable, strategic, and fun. Let me say first that I agree that she can only go down in the long run and I believe that her character should be better; as is, she currently lacks any potent tools to interact with a talented and experienced opponent should the Zelda player choose to do so. However, I also think that her design heavily discourages the opponent from interacting with her favorably to the same degree, should the player choose to do so. This sets up a situation where neither player has incentive to interact with the other in a game based on interaction. And while this may be an illogical association, I believe the disincentive for either player to interact with the other is Vanilla Brawl's single main flaw as a game.

I can understand why it is a weak argument for me to speak for the community at large for having a distaste for the character, and I won't use it anymore. However, I feel it is equally weak to assume that the majority of players play against her incorrectly, because it makes an equally assertive statement with the same lack of vindication. I find it odd that so many people have problems with this one character but none of the others to the same degree without some disparity. Even if so many more players are playing against Zelda incorrectly than they are against the rest of the cast at large, I can't help but think that it is also some early indication that something is amiss. It is far less likely to be that the player base simply can't understand how to fight Zelda than it is that something is off with the character herself, all else equal. I think both assertions about the community can be discarded.

I do not wish to be considered ignorant to the character's design, but it is also not possible I think to truly understand the depth of the character this early into the game's release. However, I also do not think that a total mastery of a character is required to spot flaws in a character's design. You can show most uneducated audiences melee Ice Climber's wobbling and clearly know that something is wrong with no prior experience. That example is certainly more extreme than PM Zelda's scenario and therefore more visible, but I think the point is made all the same. As a player base, we should be able to understand to some degree when something is amiss after a mild amount of experience (2.5 sonic). I do understand that Zelda is a very, very difficult character to design due to her inherent attributes, and at this time I am uncertain how to appropriately address them. I merely think that the current version is not the correct way to do it and that a better alternative must surely be possible.

My desire for Zelda's character (I like Zelda as a character a LOT) is to make her better at engaging the opponent to encourage Zelda players to interact with their opponents more, while making her worse at negating interaction from the opponent. However, I would like her to receive a net increase in viability from these changes. Ideally, this would normalize her style of interaction, making her more enjoyable to play for both the Zelda players and their opponents.

I've tried to be as concise as possible with the above statements. Feel free to pick them apart. In a debate, I do not consider it a victory to "beat" the opposing party. Victory in a debate only happens with a mutually beneficial agreement. I am totally open to being dis-proven, corrected, or educated, and I will read every post on the subject from this point thoughtfully.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Along those lines, I've been thinking and wanting to say,

Olimar's biggest point of unappeal is that he's basically vBrawl Olimar.

Zelda's biggest point of unappeal is that she's basically... vBrawl Olimar.

Both Din's Fire and Pikmin are designed in a way that encourages the opponent to want to deal with them, but that is exactly what Olimar/Zelda want you do be doing, so they can throw out more/set up more. Both are resources that are easily replenished, and both force the opponent to play around them more than to play around the characters themselves. Once both are dealt with, the character has to resort to using Smashes/Shield Grabs against an over extending opponent, or forced to lose and cry to one that plays around those moves. The whole of it adds up to paying more attention to "[Zelda/Olimar] just look like they're spamming Side B" than "Both the character and their opponent are engaged in an active exchange of spacing and baiting each other."

 

[ss118]

*snip*

I'll start off by saying I agree with your post, and I understand that you like Zelda as a character and that her design isn't what you want for her. However, is it necessarily bad to have a character that attempts to disengage with the enemy and attempts to minimize the amount of DIRECT interaction between players? In other fighting games characters are often based on this concept in a similar fashion, IE Dormammu and Morrigan fit that bill in UMVC3 and I'm sure there are plenty of other examples but I'm bad at thinking of stuff off hand.

I see the problem with this in a smash game is because of the system difference between "taking damage" vs "taking percentage". IE, Morrigan fireballs you just eventually die a screen away if you don't do anything productive but in smash it just extends your damage until your opponent frustratingly moves forward at a severe disadvantage...

hmmmm... I guess this just doesn't work in smash? idk, maybe they should steal Brawl- disjointed hitboxes for her lol. It is more interactive than this xD

 

[MLGF]

Morrigan was unintentionally made like that. I'm not too informed when it comes to the Marvel 3 Metagame too much, but I can see an exploit in that game easily after watching some tourneys and such. Her mirror super is the only form change super which still allows the character to continue to gain meter, allowing her to create an amazing keep away. Yes the speed at which she can send projectiles, something intentional, adds to this but it's obvious that it was an overlook from the developers seeing as how much of Marvel is offense based.

And when it comes to the community and Marvel, I know people hate this sort of playstyle. ChrisG is pretty much hated as a player because his approach makes the game dull and repetitive to watch, which is pretty much the crazy Vergil/Zero stuff, which is a lot of fun to watch. I'm not picking a side on the Zelda front just yet, as Morrigan took flight a YEAR after the games release, but I do think that there should be caution in these sorts of characters and the PM:BR should be cautious on where the delve on this.

Does Umbreon have a point? Sure does. Do people like Zhime, who have made this character work, deserve to have their main changed so greatly when she doesn't break the game? I don't think so. Do I feel as if there is an easy solution? Well... obviously not. That's all I have to say, the PM:BR should consider avoiding an accident like Morrigan because as biased as I sound she does kinda ruin the game.

 

[ss118]

Ryo has a super that gains meter, so does Jill and firebrand. I think Felicia does as well, and Arthur. If anything gaining meter is the norm and Dante / Vergil / Wolverine are exceptions. People hate on morrigan just because they don't appreciate the idea of controlling space and full screen zoning. I'd rather see that than zero... Period.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Ryo has a super that gains meter, so does Jill and firebrand. I think Felicia does as well, and Arthur. If anything gaining meter is the norm and Dante / Vergil / Wolverine are exceptions. People hate on morrigan just because they don't appreciate the idea of controlling space and full screen zoning. I'd rather see that than zero... Period.

It's pretty clear who was and who wasn't designed to be a keepaway character. Rocket Raccoon and Arthur are made with a billion projectiles and traps for an approaching opponent. These characters were clearly designed to be used defensively. Morrigan has a single projectile and abusive super that happen to add up to an absurd lockdown.

None of which has any baring on Project M, mind.

 

[otter]

My desire for Zelda's character (I like Zelda as a character a LOT) is to make her better at engaging the opponent to encourage Zelda players to interact with their opponents more, while making her worse at negating interaction from the opponent. However, I would like her to receive a net increase in viability from these changes. Ideally, this would normalize her style of interaction, making her more enjoyable to play for both the Zelda players and their opponents.

Although your argument is well articulated, I think you're basically saying "I don't like camping". That's fine, but there is clearly a demand for that sort of character. Claiming that you want more "interaction" between characters is also fine, but I think you mistaken in thinking that he distance in between the character has anything to do with whether or not they are interacting. Furthermore, I would say its quite vital for characters to dominate and cower and different ranges, from both extremes to everywhere in between. These tensions are a central source of fun in a fighting game. You can stillhave fun taking turns nair shinig each other (I play falco), but that's no reason to discount zoning.

This is entirely different from balance considerations which is the only the only time the term "normalize" should be considered a possible good thing. You should br as abnormal as the timer and blast zones allow until something is proven game breaking. We can all agree that we don't wan't characters flow charting and doing whatever they feel like regardless of their opponent's answer, but I also don't think many people would put Zelda on the short list of brain dead characters. I also think there is a danger of mistaking zoning for Brawl style stalling which is derived from most moves and approaches simply being bad and counter attacking being better than attacking. Removing any ranged play from the game is beyond overkill and detrimental.

Once again I appreciate your argument and also hope not to insult anyone but simply discuss an awesome game.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

Along those lines, I've been thinking and wanting to say,

Olimar's biggest point of unappeal is that he's basically vBrawl Olimar."

I disagree with this. Olimar is encouraged to keep his Pikmin for longer periods of time, and by spamming Side-B to damage your opponent, you are also losing Pikmin that can eventually flower and do more damage (because against characters like Sonic, nair/spin attacks kill Pikmin). PM Olimar is much different from his Brawl counterpart.

Also, Olimar isn't nearly as defensive or "campy" as Zelda is.

 

[GP&B]

I think what Umbreon wants isn't for Zelda to not be a campy character, but to actually have the ability to move in and directly interact with the opponent. If you consider other characters who also have the ability to be campy, they more often than not additionally have the ability to get in and fight in close quarters if needed. Toon Link immediately comes to mind as he can harass the opponent easily but can simultaneously find lots of openings to move in and create pressure. Even outside of that, he has the tools to play in up close instead of zoning and weaving in and out.

 

[DMG]

Ryo has a super that gains meter, so does Jill and firebrand. I think Felicia does as well, and Arthur. If anything gaining meter is the norm and Dante / Vergil / Wolverine are exceptions. People hate on morrigan just because they don't appreciate the idea of controlling space and full screen zoning. I'd rather see that than zero... Period.

It's not about supers in general gaining meter. It's about clones/duplicates. When Zero gets another one on screen, he doesn't gain meter from locking them down with projectiles. Morrigan does (without a good reason) and just further contributes to that playstyle. If the person blocks instead of being "stupid" and trying to get to her while she has a clone, they still get punished as she gains meter.


People hate on Morrigan, because entire teams have exhausted numerous attempts and hours into getting around it, usually with no success. Nobody says **** when Chris does non morrigan stuff. Whip out the Doom and jank around, it's all good. But toss out Morrigan and start breaking your assist button for calling Doom Missiles, and it's no wonder people hate it. The way he plays Marvel, is lamer than the way I played Brawl. That's not something he should be proud of, despite the thousands of dollars he wins. There's pride in that, just not the method. Then again, I could give less than a **** about Marvel, because Capcom probably doesn't care about balancing it that much AND THEY STILL HAVEN'T GIVEN ME JUGGERNAUT! Put the big man back in the god damn game, I don't care how good or bad he is. Ya goofed!


Edit: Most people want a Zelda that can approach better, isn't a cactus defensively, and has less extreme moves. By extreme, I mean that she doesn't usually have moves that trend "average". She has moves that can be incredibly good, and then useless the next minute. Or moves that start kind of bad, and don't improve based on the situation. Moves that are pretty good in this regard: Nair and Dsmash. They aren't too extreme, generally useful moves. She probably needs more of that kind of stuff.

 

[Ogopogo]

In other news, memorizing combos is still incredibly boring.