Tier List Speculation

[Nguz95]

You guys are so old...

 

[Ripple]

it disheartens me that you don't even know what show the pic DMG posts all the time is from.

DMG, I'm sad

 

[DMG]

I'm sad too Ripple. Can u guise put Juggernaut in Smash 4 me? Plz

Edit #2 apparently:

I dunno how strict the timing is in PM to do the ledge missle stuff, since I can do this with Samus both being completely 100% parallel straight up and down, and othertimes drifting slightly to the left as I fall, while still grabbing the edge. Decently hard but kinda useful. Although with the new tether system, there's not much punishment for doing it sloppy since you can just Zair afterwards and rather quickly grab the edge anyways.

Samus is fun. Anyone going to do a *non* super doodle man/frame perfect video of what she can do?

Edit; what the heck smashboards I made an edit! This is blasphemy!

 

[DMG]

Edit #3: Someone scoop this up, weird DP edit etc

 

[KayB]

I'm saying infinite hand offs. They changed the throw point of dthrow so you can follow up with a smash attack(fsmash), or grab with Nana, but it isn't as easy as Melee, and she just tosses them who knows where. They can still net a lot of damage off of grabs because Nana fan ftilt THE crap out of the other person before you throw. Regardless they are as they are in Melee, which was like average, and lost their infinite tools which made them tournament viable.

Do you know what Melee hand offs are?

Wobbling hasn't been getting banned from some recent tournies and I saw a large response to the MLG thing saying not to ban it.

Apex 2013 and TBH3 come to mind. Where Ice Climbers got into Top 32 and Top 8 respectively without wobbling. You can also see Fly's IC's. He only started wobbling very recently. Chu Dat also does not wobble and is still very well considered a tournament threat. Nintendude doesn't wobble either (or at least he doesn't do it very often). Wobbles still performs very well even without wobbling. To insinuate that the Ice Climbers don't have a metagame aside from wobbling and infinites is silly and just plain wrong.

 

[DMG]

What made IC's tournament viable is putting them in the hands of literal gods

 

[Kink-Link5]

Just because no one has been posting any lists in the tier list thread.

[collapse=Bunni's Project M 3.0 Tier List ver. 0.1]

A Class

Top Tier
Fox
Falco
Yoshi
Sheik/Zelda

High Tier
Wario
Peach
Snake
Diddy Kong
Lucas
Metaknight's Nair
Link


B Class

Upper Tier
Wolf
Pit
Zero Suit Samus
Ice Climbers
Donkey Kong
Bowser
Mario
Ivysaur
Kirby
Marth
Samus

Middle Tier
Lucario
Mr. Game and Watch
R.O.B.
Jigglypuff
Mewtwo
Ike
Sonic
Roy
Captain Falcon

C Class

Low Tier
Luigi
Olimar
Toon Link
Ganondorf

Bottom Tier
King DeDeDe
Zelda
Charizard
Pikachu
Ness
Squirtle[/collapse]

 

[MrBigstuff]

That S Tier Yoshi...

 

[DMG]

I don't support Kirby over Marth. I'd rather be dead than for that to be true.

 

[ZelDan]

So where does metaknight's other moves place on the tier list?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I don't support Kirby over Marth. I'd rather be dead than for that to be true.

well looks like it's hara-kiri time for you because the kirby train don't stop

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

well looks like it's hara-kiri time for you because the kirby train don't stop

Can't stop the K-Train.

 

[NightShadow6]

Whats with Charizard?

Insane survivability and punish game with a very quick dash speed. Sure trouble against projectiles, but he can use his movement to get past them. (lets not forget nair)

 

[MLGF]

He has such a weak matchup against Snake he's sent to the bottom.
(Get it? Because Charizard is ruined by stealth rock and Snake is steal- eh, too complicated)

And I think Kink has hated Charizard forever, so I dunno. I think his biggest flaw is that he's a somewhat more linear in terms of playstyle compared to a lot of other characters, but that's about it.

 

[DMG]

I like to pretend that Charizard doesn't exist, or is only around as the neutered charmander.

Any character that has a strat of turning their butt towards you, and then Nairing, get -1 rep in my book. If that's what Falcon was supposed to do, I'd drop him

 

[Kink-Link5]

Whats with Charizard?

Insane survivability and punish game with a very quick dash speed. Sure trouble against projectiles, but he can use his movement to get past them. (lets not forget nair)

Horrible matchups against a large part of the cast don't help a character no matter what tools they have. Charizard eats total **** once he gets touched, which isn't hard to do since none of his moves are remotely safe on whiff except for fair, which doesn't matter because he doesn't have anything to cover himself when fair misses.

I love charizard. I've used him since 2.0 almost exclusively. He's just, really, really bad against pretty much everyone that isn't a tall humanoid. Lucas:Charizard (among many others) is a ****ing farce of a match. His actually good matchups can be counted on less than one hand, and his neutral matchups on less than another one.

It's fine whether he's good or not. If it wasn't him it would be someone else, and it's fun to be able to take on Peach when she butts into Ice Climbers' business.

 

[Ace55]

If Zard is bottom tier then this game's balance is amazing. That said I don't agree with your assessments of his matchups.

 

[mYzeALot]

Can someone inform me on the weaknesses of toon link that makes people put him in low tier a lot of the time?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I like to pretend that Charizard doesn't exist, or is only around as the neutered charmander. Any character that has a strat of turning their butt towards you, and then Nairing, get -1 rep in my book. If that's what Falcon was supposed to do, I'd drop him

But

but you

****ING WARIO

 

[Nguz95]

He has so many weaknesses it's hard to list them all.
Imagine a really small, worse version of Young Link.

 

[DMG]

Um what

Worse than YL? That's a bit much I think

 

[Nguz95]

It probably is, but whenever I play him that's what I feel like.

 

[Kink-Link5]

If Zard is bottom tier then this game's balance is amazing. That said I don't agree with your assessments of his matchups.

This game's balance is amazing.

And I still stand by my statement. Charizard does well against like, Marth, Ganon, Peach, and maybe DK, and crumbles to any of the multitude of characters that are designed to bumrush in with moves that are all over the place and combo his huge ass around as if it's going out of style like Lucas and Sheik.

 

[Bryonato]

He has so many weaknesses it's hard to list them all.
Imagine a really small, worse version of Young Link.

that's a bit of a cop-out answer. Specifics?

 

[Sizzlorr217]

The first thing that comes to my mind is Toon Links recovery.
Being a move thrown out after a DThrow - Yes.
Being a move for recovering horizontally - maybe.
Being a move for recovering vertically - hell no!

 

[Kink-Link5]

I feel that Toon Link is a bit like Zelda, where he does alright as long as he has already set up and started doing ****, but can't do much at all threatening from a neutral perspective. Every match with him feels like he tosses a lot of projectiles and gets the opponent to 160%, then dies leaving the opponent with 2 stocks left at 170%.

 

[Kink-Link5]

The first thing that comes to my mind is Toon Links recovery.
Being a move thrown out after a DThrow - Yes.
Being a move for recovering horizontally - maybe.
Being a move for recovering vertically - hell no!

Toon Link has the longest recovery in the game.

It's just laughably easy to intercept.

 

[mYzeALot]

So he has a sub-par recover, bad neutral game, and bad killing potential?

 

[GP&B]

Two of his best KO moves (Dair and Up B) require setups that are pretty much dependent on pressuring with projectiles, unless you like attempting to hard read Dairs and grabs. It's not exactly ideal and he also lacks a good gimping/off-stage game to make up for that. His projectile game is ace so he feels fine in neutral but I've never been fond of close quarters with him unless I'm specifically setting something up. The frustration in trying to KO comes from your opponents actively avoiding setups with proper S/DI and movement which is why Tink can be left dry fishing for a finisher. Mind you, I'm certainly nowhere near as good as the best with him, but I've felt a lot better with Mario more recently over him. It's not something the PMBR could change to make me like him, it's just the way he operates on a whole.

 

[Kaeldiar]

EDIT: See comments

This is Kink-Link5's tier list. I have added comments in italics.

A Class

Top Tier
Fox I personally believe that Falco is better than Fox, but I expect to see Fox ranking higher than Falco in all tier lists.
Falco
** Yoshi I haven't seen Yoshi play in P:M, but I can't see him jumping all the way to top tier, haven't taken a look at him myself.
Sheik/Zelda I imagine Sheik will drop to "high tier." She was slightly nerfed from Melee (needles don't block as well, and throws are worse)

High Tier
Wario I wish I could use this guy…he's unnaturally good
Peach Peach remains strong as ever
Snake About the same as Brawl. I'd like to see how he fairs in a Melee-style metagame
Diddy Kong
Lucas Lucas got some much needed buffs, but I still place him between "upper" and "high" tier
Metaknight's Nair I actually think MK will drop even lower than this. He was heavily nerfed. I place him in mid tier, maybe even low tier
Link M2K was so bold as to say Link is probably the best in P:M…he's not that good, but people are learning how to use him better. At least high tier


B Class

Upper Tier
Wolf mmm, not sure about this one. Top of upper tier is a bit generous. I think he's between mid and upper
Pit He lacks KO power. Pure and simple, he can't finish. I put him low/bottom tier.
Zero Suit Samus I also see this as a bit high. She's mid tier, imo
Ice Climbers This seems about right. No more wobbling, but still plenty of options
Donkey Kong Haven't seen a DK player, so idk
Bowser Bowser got seriously buffed. He's scary good, but not quite top tier. I agree with this one.
Mario Mario is top tier. His recovery is insane, and he now has both the speed and power necessary for a top tier character. I wouldn't be too surprised to see him at 1, 2, or 3
Ivysaur Right now, I think this is where Ivysaur is. However, I expect people will learn how to deal with him and he'll drop.
Kirby Kirby seems sort of like Melee Jigglypuff. His aerial attacks combo into each other, and he can chase opponents off the stage then float back. Not to mention, he has a better neutral game
Marth Not sure where he'll end up. He seems about the same as Melee, but the rest of the metagame was buffed.
Samus No data here, so idk

Middle Tier
Lucario Lucario will take a lot of time to develop. He's basically a brand new character. I don't know where he'll end up
Mr. Game and Watch G&W is bottom tier. He sucks. Not much to say.
R.O.B. ROB is pretty cool now, mid tier seems right.
Jigglypuff Basically the same as Melee, but the rest of the game was buffed, so mid tier seems right.
Mewtwo I think he'll end up low/bottom tier. He's still plagued by most of his problems for Melee
Ike Low/mid tier. Just too slow to make a big standing.
Sonic Not sure where he'll end up. I've seen some pretty good Sonic players, but I can't see him going higher than mid tier.
Roy Still an inferior Marth
Captain Falcon Falcon is still top/high tier.

C Class

Low Tier
Charizard Charizard is much better than this. He's faster than he was in Brawl, and he now has Fly as a quick way to follow up aerials, especially considering he mostly KOs off the ceiling. I see him at the top of mid tier.
Luigi seems right
Olimar I can't use him, but others can, apparently. I imagine he'll be higher than this, like he was in Brawl
Toon Link seems right. He lost his floatiness and his good recovery
Ganondorf seems right

Bottom Tier
King DeDeDe Higher than this for the same reasons as Charizard: i.e. faster
Zelda Bottom tier until some figures out how to exploit Din's as completely broken, which I firmly believe is possible
Pikachu Not standout-ish, but better than BOTTOM
Ness
Squirtle

 

[Soft Serve]

Kink I like your list. Imo yoshi might be too high, I think he is strong but not enough to warrant out placing sheik. I'd also put Lucas above diddy, but both are really strong and thats just me nit-picking. Assuming that the grouping is done so that characters in that tier are all roughly of the same competitive viability, I'd agree with most of your list.

 

[DJ _ICE]

Link M2K was so bold as to say Link is probably the best in P:M…

What the heck? What makes him say that?

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

What the heck? What makes him say that?

Knee-Jerk reactions. The same stuff that usually makes him say stupid #$%^.

 

[MLGF]

What the heck? What makes him say that?

Not knowing the matchup I assume.
I really respect M2K as a player, but I really don't feel as if he studies Project M matchups/data like he does Melee.

 

[ss118]

mew2king has a tendency to say stupid stuff sometimes. I remembered he added me on FB to discuss the Jiggs vs Ivysaur match-up, and it went something like this:

"You can fair to up B jiggs at 50% for an easy kill."
"While that is true, I don't think fair is good in the neutral vs her so it's something to keep in mind but not make your core gameplay."
"...But it kills at 50%."
"Doesn't matter if you don't hit her with it."
"...but 50%!!!!"

I could find the actual quotes but whatever.

 

[Soft Serve]

Link is strong in P:M because Melee link's play style and technology all carries over, and works even better. What link truly lacked in melee imo was a way to get out of pressure, and an inability to convert consistently and effectively from hitting with a projectile/nair. He had great tools, and a few decent matchups in the top 8(read peach, falcon, and maybe Jiggs), but getting shut down by spacies and struggling to combo floaties were some problems.

In Pm, all of links tools got buffed, his normals got stronger (his tilts are all god damn amazing now, fair kills so early, smashes link better, aerials have less lag and kill sooner), everything combos more fluidly, his arrows got buffed in uncharged trajectory and knockback, boomerang is even easier to hit confirm off if, and he got even more options to play around with bombs and AGT techs. I wouldn't say he is too strong, as he still falls apart when put under smart, well placed pressure once you find a way through the projectile wall. Nair, up-b, up-smash, and AGTs are his only good OoS options.

I stopped playing Link after 2.1 though. I might be still hyped up on the chaingrabs he had on everyone for free and overestimating his potential. M2K also plays IE6 in PM mostly, and as said earlier in the thread he is an amazing link and a smart player. I know he bodied me in first round losers bracket at Evo.

 

[Hylian]

Link also has the 4th slowest run speed and the 2nd shortest wavedash, while he is heavy he is also the perfect combo weight for almost every character. You can't just compare melee Link and PM Link in a vacuum, you have to consider every other character was brought to viability as well. I've been saying for awhile(after 2.6 anyways) that Link is better than people think, but I certainly don't think he's anywhere near top tier, more likely comfortably in the middle of the cast.

 

[Blarg I'm Dead]

Mario is god tier. Amazing recovery, sweet combos, fireballs, good mix ups, really awesome recovery, 7% per fireball, fireballs that lead into whatever, and fireballs that bounce around and are a ***** to deal with. Dat medical attire too doe.

also marth needs more wall jump and brawl side b. I'm dead ****ing serious. Yeah, he ***** space animals but everyone also has chaingrabs on them now, most characters have a buffed recovery/ledges in general are more forgiving, he still can't kill for **** past 100%, gets ****ed up if he whiffs, he still gets juggled hard, and his recovery is still predictable. Every other character gets hooked up and all I'm asking for is wall jump tricks and killing people past 100%.

 

[Ghetto Blush]

How is Squirtle the worst character? He has so many approach options, extremely god gimp options, and he just combos fast fallers for days.

 

[Burnsy]

How is Squirtle the worst character? He has so many approach options, extremely god gimp options, and he just combos fast fallers for days.

He's not.