Tier List Speculation

[Nguz95]

hey guys, I got 5th at a 60 man PM tournament going solo DDD.

and it was in the midwest/chicago, you know, where we're really good at PM and only play that now.

He's not the worst

Anecdotal data
I'm not saying he's definitely the worst, but I am sort of skeptical of one person's result. If anything I would say your experience is a testament to how much tighter these tiers are than the tiers in Melee. Again, I'm no expert, and you'd probably smack me with DDD, but I still feel that he struggles considerably more than most, if not all, of the cast.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

hey guys, I got 5th at a 60 man PM tournament going solo DDD.

and it was in the midwest/chicago, you know, where we're really good at PM and only play that now.

He's not the worst

vids please because I want to see your inhale tech and waddledash trickery

 

[trash?]

hey guys, I got 5th at a 60 man PM tournament going solo DDD.

and it was in the midwest/chicago, you know, where we're really good at PM and only play that now.

He's not the worst

1) anecdotal data doesn't really do much, here
2) I already said you can pretty much get away w/ whoever and do well long-term, but it's pretty clear that you can consistently get away w/ fox more than someone like DDD, considering that space animals still make up of a healthy chunk of tournament wins

 

[DMG]

Samus is not bad per se. She does a lot of things well, but her limitations from Melee (sluggishness, very poor aerial game, etc.) are still present. I feel that the ice transformation alleviates the aerial game issue somewhat, but her air game is still worse than average. I think she is a character that suffers from the transition to Project M, similar to Jigglypuff. Her crouch cancel game is comparatively worse than Melee because there more characters that can crouch cancel as well or better than she can (Ex. Bowser). Additionally, there are more characters with ranged grabs and good options to beat crouch canceling (Ex. Lucas). Her projectile game, while still very strong, is also comparatively worse. Finally, part of her success in Melee depended on her strong MUs against spacies. Since this game has a plethora of new, unique character types, I feel that Samus's weakness are more easily exploited by other characters. This is a problem because other characters are becoming more and more common as the game progresses. I see a lot of really poor matchups for her at the top of my tier list. I feel like Lucas, Pit, Meta Knight, Diddy Kong, and Snake will all give her a really hard time in a tournament setting.

I don't agree with some of this. Her CC game isn't as unique sure, but it's still effective. Her overall defensive capabilities are even higher than they were in Melee, since you have the improved Zair and the crawl ability. Her crawl adds depth to what she can do defensively and is crazy useful. Even so, what does it matter to Samus if other people CC good too? I don't see Bowser or Zard or "X" character's own ability to CC somehow hamper how well Samus can do normally. If anything, that's a huge issue for people that suffer from CC like Roy.

Her projectile game is still the sameish. Sure it's "comparatively" worse, but in what MU's does this impact her? Like most of these points you bring up, are points that other characters are starting to do stuff to other characters. Not specifically "this ***** Samus and she sucks". If the characters are getting progressively better over time, without introducing "GG samus" tools against her, I think she will be fine, unless literally every character gets buffed and tooled ahead of her and that would be a sad day.

It will be interesting to see how she can fare against new character "types", but she is pretty resilient as a character. Just don't be above people onstage and you can win!

 

[Kaeldiar]

Just don't be above people onstage and you can win!

This is pretty much the case for everyone.

 

[trash?]

everyone except for kirby

I'm pretty sure his downb alone should raise him by a couple of tier spots in most ppl's tier lists. suddenly, being under him is SCARY

 

[DMG]

It was scary until I got hit by the move and went ****in nowhere

 

[9bit]

And then immediately got comboed into a Hammer ya?

 

[DMG]

Bahahaha

It combo'd into me teching away and Kirby still being ugly

 

[9bit]

 

[Plum]

everyone except for kirby

I'm pretty sure his downb alone should raise him by a couple of tier spots in most ppl's tier lists. suddenly, being under him is SCARY

Replace Kirby with Meta Knight, and DownB with Dair, and "suddenly, being under him is SCARY" with "suddenly being under him is ambiguous as hell because MK is the ****"

MK's Dair might not be good for much offensively... but it's pretty damn stupid when MK is just above you and you have to guess what he does or get your ass punished... so rather than try to guess and maybe be wrong it just feels better to let MK get down for free and punish what he does afterwards.
man MK is dumb

 

[Nguz95]

I don't agree with some of this. Her CC game isn't as unique sure, but it's still effective. Her overall defensive capabilities are even higher than they were in Melee, since you have the improved Zair and the crawl ability. Her crawl adds depth to what she can do defensively and is crazy useful. Even so, what does it matter to Samus if other people CC good too? I don't see Bowser or Zard or "X" character's own ability to CC somehow hamper how well Samus can do normally. If anything, that's a huge issue for people that suffer from CC like Roy.

Her projectile game is still the sameish. Sure it's "comparatively" worse, but in what MU's does this impact her? Like most of these points you bring up, are points that other characters are starting to do stuff to other characters. Not specifically "this ***** Samus and she sucks". If the characters are getting progressively better over time, without introducing "GG samus" tools against her, I think she will be fine, unless literally every character gets buffed and tooled ahead of her and that would be a sad day.

It will be interesting to see how she can fare against new character "types", but she is pretty resilient as a character. Just don't be above people onstage and you can win!

That's fair. I'll try to address some of your points this time.

Project M has given us an abundance of characters with unique and/or different than average movement options. Simply wavedashing back and forth is no longer the norm for many of the characters in PM. Many of these movement options come from cancelable specials like Ike's QD and Earthbound boys' magnets. Other characters, such as Pit and MK have multiple jumps, yet also have the benefit of a quick, dangerous shffl. All of these characters have ways to combat Samus's basic strategy, which is to get the opponent to get overly aggressive so you can punish them. They can approach safely around her projectiles in a myriad of ways and get to her before she can start crouch canceling and/or up b out of shield. Also, (pulling from vro's "categories of a**" thread from a while back) offense is more heavily favored on PM, meaning that defensive characters like Samus, who were already beginning to be overpowered in Melee, are going to have an even tougher time in PM, where there are more characters who can body her just off of one hit.

What I'm trying to get at is that Samus's Melee style (punish people for being too aggressive) is outdated in an atmosphere where it's harder to get punished. Recoveries are better, neutral games are better, combo games are better, but Samus is still, well, Samus. I feel that she has been slightly outclassed in PM. I hope I'm wrong, as I think she's a cool character, but as it stands, I don't think she is as competitive as people think she is. Remember, All of my tiers are grouped really close together, so Samus's situation is not dire in any way, shape, or form. However, I don't think she is currently a high tier character. She can compete, just like every other character in PM, but I don't think she can excel like the characters in my A tier can.

 

[DMG]

You may find greater satisfaction by using MK's Dair in these scenarios:

1. Offstage

2. As a unique approach that makes sense

3. Sometimes in the Air

4. Divekick from really far in the sky, in any direction, and probably don't get punished



Nevermind then...

Edit: That's fair nguz. I think she is still fine, but that to keep up with the competition people will have to play incredibly cheesy involving Zair and crawling.

 

[Nguz95]

I definitely agree with that. Crawling could conceivably be an entire strategy on its own.

 

[Kneato]

Here is my 2 bits on tier list speculation. Idle speculation on tier placements is all good and dandy, but making a compilation of all character matchups would likely be a good step towards making a first draft of the full tier list. Because 3.0 marks the end of the "demo" stage of release, now seems as good a time to start as any.

Some matchups from melee remain unchanged because a few of the characters were ported with very little to no change to their movesets (top tiers). At this point, there are a few notable "professional level" smashers playing P:M who can weigh in on the rest of the current roster and help draw up the tentative matchup chart. This can be modified on a character by character basis on new releases and as the meta changes.

If people think this is a good idea, I'll make a thread with the sole purpose of creating a matchup chart for all P:M characters.

I already made a template for the potential matchup chart.

Tadaaa

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

Here is my 2 bits on tier list speculation. Idle speculation on tier placements is all good and dandy, but making a compilation of all character matchups would likely be a good step towards making a first draft of the full tier list. Because 3.0 marks the end of the "demo" stage of release, now seems as good a time to start as any.

Some matchups from melee remain unchanged because a few of the characters were ported with very little to no change to their movesets (top tiers). At this point, there are a few notable "professional level" smashers playing P:M who can weigh in on the rest of the current roster and help draw up the tentative matchup chart. This can be modified on a character by character basis on new releases and as the meta changes.

If people think this is a good idea, I'll make a thread with the sole purpose of creating a matchup chart for all P:M characters.

I already made a template for the potential matchup chart.

Tadaaa

I like the idea but what are the ?s and AVGs for?

 

[Ultimate Sneeze]

?s are probably for the extra clone slots if they're ever used so they don't have to be added, and AVGs is the average of all the matchup values, I presume.

 

[Kneato]

I like the idea but what are the ?s and AVGs for?

I may have heard wrong, but the grape vine told me that PMBR is looking to fill the last 5 clone engine slots by the year 20XX. And AVG will be the character's average matchup which may well serve as a starting point for tier list placements.

EDIT: Sniped by Ultimate Sneeze

 

[Nguz95]

I'm down for this. I do have a quick question, however. How will you be gathering data? Will it be a community effort, or is it going to depend a lot on the opinions of PMBR and high level players? I'm assuming it will be a hybrid of the two, with the latter taking precedence over, but not dominating, the former.

 

[mYzeALot]

I think that the top players for each character should have the most weight in what they say, unless if it's a character like wolf in which the few very good players that play him should each have equal weight. I definitely feel like there should be discussion, maybe in each character's subforum kind of run by "that top player." The community could discuss each matchup until there is kind of a consensus, and then the "uber good player" can report what the majority of da people think.

 

[Deleted member]

1) anecdotal data doesn't really do much, here

I disagree with the idea of discarding anecdotal evidence. it should be given proper due (understood that it is limited) but still treated as evidence all the same. all evidence is anecdotal to some degree and to disqualify it completely is a poor practice.

 

[Nguz95]

The way Ripple presented his evidence was a classic case of anecdotal data. I considered it for what it was worth, however little that was. His performance against a group of other humans has little to do with what DDD is capable of when played at his fullest potential against other characters being played to their fullest potential. It seems to me that Ripple's experience is more a testament to the balance of PM than anything.

 

[DMG]

I see it as a testament to his skill, not necessarily the character

Although D3 definitely has some stuff, and the mantle of "worst character" probably goes to Ganon atm

 

[NightShadow6]

So that Olimar?

Stupid damage potential after a minute depending on pikmin line up.
Only thing is that he gets pooped on a bit waiting for that build up.

Not saying hes that defenseless, but he can't kill or anything really.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I have a hard time believing with the cast at the moment and the metagame at the moment that DeDeDe is the worst character in the game.

Not even talking about anecdotal or results based conclusions, Squirtle, Ganondorf, and Pikachu have very little going for them in terms of tech or aspects that make them stand out as strong characters.

So that Olimar?

Stupid damage potential after a minute depending on pikmin line up.
Only thing is that he gets pooped on a bit waiting for that build up.

Not saying hes that defenseless, but he can't kill or anything really.

Olimar has very little trouble killing with nair setting up into any kill aerial and a grab leading most often to death starting at 100%. The problem is that he loses every trade presented to him.

 

[DMG]

Pikachu is fast, Squirtle is tiny, and Ganon just happens to probably be the worst

 

[Kink-Link5]

The way Ripple presented his evidence was a classic case of anecdotal data. I considered it for what it was worth, however little that was. His performance against a group of other humans has little to do with what DDD is capable of when played at his fullest potential against other characters being played to their fullest potential. It seems to me that Ripple's experience is more a testament to the balance of PM than anything.

"Fullest potential" is a misnomer when looking at a metagame. Results based conclusions are worse than theorycrafting, but even theorycrafting is based on aspects of a character that are demonstrated, described, or discovered by one's self. ie: Anecdotes.

Pikachu, for example, has shown to have no strategies or techniques that are applicable for a place in the current metagame. He should rightfully be considered lower tier at the moment, because all the meta cares about is what is known to be possible. Results may show one thing or another, but the point is that nothing Pikachu has is known, at this time, to be of much relevance, as has been the case since his first incarnation in Project M.

If Pikachu tech is discovered or reapplied in a better way in the future, that's fine, because it shows a change in the meta and would warrant a reassessment of his tier placing, as has happened with the changing tier lists of every game that has ever existed.

 

[ss118]

Being tiny doesn't make you useable.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I have a question. What makes ROB not the worst character, aside from JCasesar and Ganon existing? Rob is generally large and not very agile or mobile, has low kill power, and relies basically almost solely on lazor as the "thing" that makes most of his combos. Most of his moves seem easily predictable and aside from having his little scooty rockets for a recovery, what makes ROB not the worst?
I mean obviously JCaesar has great success with him and obviously Ganon exists, but try to look past the fact that Ganon might or might not be trash.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I have a question. What makes ROB not the worst character, aside from JCasesar and Ganon existing? Rob is generally large and not very agile or mobile, has low kill power, and relies basically almost solely on lazor as the "thing" that makes most of his combos. Most of his moves seem easily predictable and aside from having his little scooty rockets for a recovery, what makes ROB not the worst?
I mean obviously JCaesar has great success with him and obviously Ganon exists, but try to look past the fact that Ganon might or might not be trash.

Dat Gyro is OP tho

 

[Kink-Link5]

R.O.B. is predictable and has no where to go but down in my view. It isn't even a matter of having slow or fast moves, it's that his signature mobility option is telegraphed 10 frames in advance, in addition to whatever startup of the attack he's doing out of it has. His best (well, least susceptible to being reacted to anyway) attack out of boosters is fair, which is simultaneously fine enough since it does fulfill that role and can get a potential edgeguard kill, but also bad since it means an opponent capable of picking up patterns would be able to pick up on that happening after the first or second time.

I don't think he's quite the worst at this time just because of his ability to be completely stupid and evasive giving him Falcon-esq strategies to fall back on, but he definitely feels limited.

 

[Strong Badam]

hey guys, I got 5th at a 60 man PM tournament going solo DDD.

and it was in the midwest/chicago, you know, where we're really good at PM and only play that now.

He's not the worst

the worst character in the game can and will place top 8 at major tournaments, blake. that's how a balanced game works.

that said, I don't think DDD is that character.

 

[Vashimus]

Bowser is also predictable and has no where to go but down. ****** still takes a licking and keeps on ticking for... how many versions now?

 

[Kink-Link5]

Bowser is also predictable and has no where to go but down. Fucker still takes a licking and keeps on ticking for... how many versions now?

Bowser has a lot more balk and a lot more surprising range going for him than R.O.B.

I agree that he has no where to go but down though.

 

[Hylian]

I have a question. What makes ROB not the worst character, aside from JCasesar and Ganon existing? Rob is generally large and not very agile or mobile, has low kill power, and relies basically almost solely on lazor as the "thing" that makes most of his combos. Most of his moves seem easily predictable and aside from having his little scooty rockets for a recovery, what makes ROB not the worst?
I mean obviously JCaesar has great success with him and obviously Ganon exists, but try to look past the fact that Ganon might or might not be trash.

Rob..not mobile?...low kill power?..relies on lazer?..do we live in the same world?

Watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyKvdfLYKUE

 

[Kink-Link5]

Rob..not mobile?...low kill power?..relies on lazer?..do we live in the same world?

Watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyKvdfLYKUE

That video actually kind of highlights R.O.B.'s mobility short comings. So many times an airdash aerial was shieldgrabbed. The fact that Oracle started to try and adapt to that by sidestepping on landing, a defensive option used in desperation and usually only under more dire circumstances, doesn't help.

Oracle's strong edgeguarding against a character that is prone to being edgeguarded did far more for him than R.O.B.'s mobility did. Both players knowing each other really well helps the prediction department on both ends as well.

I'm not saying he's not mobile and I don't think Level 100 is either, but rather that his signature mobility option is a lot more limited than similar ones from characters like Peach, and that his traditional mobility options are made intentionally limited to highlight his air dashes.

 

[Oracle]

No my air dashes are not enough for mobility keep the buffs coming

 

[Plum]

the worst character in the game can and will place top 8 at major tournaments, blake. that's how a balanced game works.

that said, I don't think DDD is that character.

Out of curiosity, who would you say is that character?

I don't think it's DDD either, and if I had to give that title to anybody I might have to lean towards Ganon, but I can't say that with much certainty at all.

 

[DMG]

Ganon

I will be that guy who tosses it out into the universe

Ganon is the worst and you almost certainly are outplaying the opponent when you win

 

[trash?]

I don't feel comfortable with giving a "true worst" character, everyone seems so tightly-knight w/r/t balance where it'd likely have to take a while before gaps are generally widened btwn best and worst

on that note though: is the arty vortex still a thing? I mean ganon can't be that badly off if he still has the vortex