rockmanmegaman
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2009
- Messages
- 22
Really? Squirtle Mid tier. I would've thought he at least be higher than Diddy. He has many good recovery option, he's agile, great combo potential and great gimp movement.
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Kokomaniac
Smash Journeyman
Didn't think ness would be at the very bottom lol
Gotta get in first, and having a number of approach options doesn't mean that (m)any of them are very good. He loses to hitboxes and to superior mobility, both of which are very prevalent these days.
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Two questions.
a) What exactly are the differences between Tink and Link that separate them so much in most people's estimations?
b) What about Squirtle's kit is so lacking that he allegedly suffers so much against the rest of the cast? He seems like he can at least match most of them.
a) What exactly are the differences between Tink and Link that separate them so much in most people's estimations?
b) What about Squirtle's kit is so lacking that he allegedly suffers so much against the rest of the cast? He seems like he can at least match most of them.
GunBlaze
Smash Lord
Tink is a semi-clone now, instead of just a faster, weaker Link.
Tink does not have Link's range, has trouble when going for KOs, and his recovery sucks unless Aerial Glide Tossing is involved.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
But his aerial glide toss should always be involved
GunBlaze
Smash Lord
Then again, not too many Tink mains (that I know of, some personally) don't give the time to practice (I have).
ss118
Smash Master
Let's pretend for a moment that Squirtle is not a bad character...
What character is worse than him?
What character is worse than him?
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
I'm inclined to say 'Olimar'. He doesn't seem like he'd fit well in the metagame.
I can't speak for other people, but I would say that Link sets up better for stuff on average, and that the range difference is very significant. Basically, his attacks do more for making the most out/challenging others in neutral position.
As for Squirtle, the range he threatens at any given moment is rarely large or unpredictable. His run speed/dashdance is awful, shellshifting takes much longer than dashdancing, and wavedashes take something like 18 frames to be able to act out of. Sure, he has a high max speed, but he can't really set the pace of spacing due to how much more commitment those options require compared to the cast, which is much more important than general speed. Withdraw is rather good at it out of runs, jumps, and B-Reversing, but that's one option, and it doesn't usually net him a lot by itself, as it tends to require multiple reads to get a ton off of it.
His combo game is pretty lacking (gets very little out of grabs, can't pressure shields well), his recovery isn't that great, he's not very powerful overall (though he has a couple of rather powerful attacks and a great edgeguard game), and the mobility/pokes he has do more to help him excel in camping instead of approaching (which nobody has tried to push as a serious strategy with Squirtle so far, unfortunately).
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Would you say that Squirtle needs improvements to his design, even this far into P:M?
In terms of being a viable character, yeah; there's no doubt in my mind. I'm also convinced that most of the changes he would need to be viable wouldn't require Squirtle players to adapt to a lot, and that the character would largely feel similar overall.
Of course, you're talking to a (the?) Brawl Squirtle player, so I wouldn't be surprised if people might not agree with that. IMO, high-level Brawl Squirtle was the most Melee character in that game. That said, most PM Squirtle players are generally happy with how the character is, as far as I'm aware.
Of course, you're talking to a (the?) Brawl Squirtle player, so I wouldn't be surprised if people might not agree with that. IMO, high-level Brawl Squirtle was the most Melee character in that game. That said, most PM Squirtle players are generally happy with how the character is, as far as I'm aware.
A lot of Tink's moveset is completely different from Link's in PM (fair, bair, usmash, fsmash, dash attack and dtilt are all totally different) and even their specials act very differently (Tink's arrows pop up for combos, Link's send at a good edge guard angle for example). They also have drastically different physics, TL is much faster whereas Link has more range and a larger hurtbox.
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
That clarifies things somewhat, yeah.
I suppose I should mention that I was talking in terms of what things make Link seem more useful/viable on the surface.
SixSaw
Smash Journeyman
I have trouble seeing how anyone but Ganon could be the worst character in 3.0
Nguz95
Smash Lord
King DDD got nerfed a little, so he's probably the worst. Ganon got a great buff with his reversible Wizard's Foot, so I actually think his stock will rise a little.
DDD is secretly really solid.
Not like overwhelmingly so, but he has enough cheese and that cheese is actually good enough, and I think that's what separates DDD from Squirtle at least imo. I see Squirtle cheese and even when it's working it only makes Squirtle look maybe average. When you see DDD cheese pulled off well he actually looks good. Like have you seen that Fair and Bair when he throws people offstage? In that one moment when DDD has you offstage he basically makes you look like his *****. Probably because you are.
Not like overwhelmingly so, but he has enough cheese and that cheese is actually good enough, and I think that's what separates DDD from Squirtle at least imo. I see Squirtle cheese and even when it's working it only makes Squirtle look maybe average. When you see DDD cheese pulled off well he actually looks good. Like have you seen that Fair and Bair when he throws people offstage? In that one moment when DDD has you offstage he basically makes you look like his *****. Probably because you are.
Ganon has huge trouble in the neutral game, which a huge reason why people rate him lowly. All of his matchups suck. He does have a ton of metagame to fall back on, and he does capitalize on every punish incredibly well.
If i had to put someone at the bottom It would be Squirtle and Olimar. Idk, I just don't like Olimar.
If i had to put someone at the bottom It would be Squirtle and Olimar. Idk, I just don't like Olimar.
ss118
Smash Master
You are right, he doesn't fit. But at least purple pokemon with flowers give him a fake sword with tremendous knockback and they seem safe on shield with the shieldstun. At least olimar can eventually be scary, squirtles biggest asset is the annoyance of his small hurtbox
Burnsy
Smash Lord
Saying Squirtle "loses to hitboxes" is a really condensed and simplified explanation of that dynamic of his game, when he posses disjointed hitboxes which -can- outrange and outright beat many moves on reaction as well as light armor on options granting movement and a decent selection of medium armor attacks.
Nguz95
Smash Lord
Alright guys, I've spent a lot of time on this one, so give me some feedback please.
A+ Tier
Fox
A Tier
Falco
Lucas
Pit
Wario
Wolf
Meta Knight
A- Tier
Sheik
Mario
Mewtwo
Diddy Kong
Peach
Snake
Sonic
Yoshi
Ice Climbers
Zero Suit Samus
Marth
Pikachu
Olimar
B+ Tier
Ivysaur
Bowser
Kirby
Roy
Ike
Luigi
Lucario
Captain Falcon
Donkey Kong
Zelda
Link
Jigglypuff
Samus
Ganondorf
Charizard
Ness
B Tier
ROB
Mr. Game and Watch
Toon Link
Squirtle
King DDD
A+ Tier
Fox
A Tier
Falco
Lucas
Pit
Wario
Wolf
Meta Knight
A- Tier
Sheik
Mario
Mewtwo
Diddy Kong
Peach
Snake
Sonic
Yoshi
Ice Climbers
Zero Suit Samus
Marth
Pikachu
Olimar
B+ Tier
Ivysaur
Bowser
Kirby
Roy
Ike
Luigi
Lucario
Captain Falcon
Donkey Kong
Zelda
Link
Jigglypuff
Samus
Ganondorf
Charizard
Ness
B Tier
ROB
Mr. Game and Watch
Toon Link
Squirtle
King DDD
Bryonato
Green Hat
That's what I've always felt is Ganon's mantra. He has trouble getting in all the time but when he does it only takes 3-4 hits for him to do a ton of damage and/or kill you. While that may not lead to winning MU's I feel like Ganon at least has some technology on almost every character.
It's condensed and simplified in ways that a majority of situations (unfortunately) come down to. I'm not convinced that the nuances you're suggesting really make much of a difference against the more mobile/more disjointed characters without involving the Squirtle player just straight-up outplaying his opponents.
Bryonato
Green Hat
Curious, why do you put Oli so high and Samus so low?
Burnsy
Smash Lord
Who are some characters that don't have swords that you think reliably keep squirtle out due to their range advantage?
Bryonato
Green Hat
In my last 2.6b tier list I had Fox in his own tier. Not sure if I'll be sticking to that when I make a 3.0 list. Idk I just feel like the character really runs train in this game. He has all the tools and is easier to perform with due to certain Brawl mechanics.
Fish&Herbs19
Smash Journeyman
My first time posting a tier list. Critiques, insight etc. are welcome. This game's balance is too good.
A Tier:
Fox
Falco
Lucas
Metaknight
Mario
Wolf
Mewtwo
A- Tier:
IC's
Sheik
Wario
Snake
Diddy
Peach
B+ Tier:
Ivy
Sonic
Marth
Yoshi
Bowser
Marth
Samus
Kirby
B Tier:
Charizard
ZSS
Pit
Roy
Ike
DDD
Lucario
Olimar
DK
B- Tier:
ROB
Luigi
Squirtle
Zelda
G&W
C+ Tier:
Jiggs
Ness
Pika
Ganondorf
Toon Link
A Tier:
Fox
Falco
Lucas
Metaknight
Mario
Wolf
Mewtwo
A- Tier:
IC's
Sheik
Wario
Snake
Diddy
Peach
B+ Tier:
Ivy
Sonic
Marth
Yoshi
Bowser
Marth
Samus
Kirby
B Tier:
Charizard
ZSS
Pit
Roy
Ike
DDD
Lucario
Olimar
DK
B- Tier:
ROB
Luigi
Squirtle
Zelda
G&W
C+ Tier:
Jiggs
Ness
Pika
Ganondorf
Toon Link
Nguz95
Smash Lord
I put Olimar relatively high because of his Pikmin setups. Olimar has a uick enough shffl that you can cycle through pikmin really by autocancelling the aerial. Using both this and the whistle can let you fine tune your lineup pretty quickly. The way each Pikmin affects your hitboxes is pretty remarkable. I feel that if you take the time to develop strategies around each different lineup, keep your Pikmin from dying so they can flower, and take advantage of each Pikmin's attributes, Olimar can be very dangerous. He's definitely a very time intensive character, but I think his potential is pretty impressive.
Samus is not bad per se. She does a lot of things well, but her limitations from Melee (sluggishness, very poor aerial game, etc.) are still present. I feel that the ice transformation alleviates the aerial game issue somewhat, but her air game is still worse than average. I think she is a character that suffers from the transition to Project M, similar to Jigglypuff. Her crouch cancel game is comparatively worse than Melee because there more characters that can crouch cancel as well or better than she can (Ex. Bowser). Additionally, there are more characters with ranged grabs and good options to beat crouch canceling (Ex. Lucas). Her projectile game, while still very strong, is also comparatively worse. Finally, part of her success in Melee depended on her strong MUs against spacies. Since this game has a plethora of new, unique character types, I feel that Samus's weakness are more easily exploited by other characters. This is a problem because other characters are becoming more and more common as the game progresses. I see a lot of really poor matchups for her at the top of my tier list. I feel like Lucas, Pit, Meta Knight, Diddy Kong, and Snake will all give her a really hard time in a tournament setting.
Notice that his own tier is A+, not S. The difference between him and the other characters in the cast is not nearly as stark as it was in Melee. Also, his brand of incredibly suffocating neutral game is still able to counter nearly all of the new characters. He's still able to dominate people in neutral. If Fox doesn't make a mistake, he's by far and away the best character in the game.
ss118
Smash Master
Why does everyone have Lucario so high up on their lists? At one point I could understand, but now his side B is so slow that you can grab him before it, and even considering all that he doesn't have that good hitboxes... he's one of the worst characters in the game to me since he lost his cheesiness.
Nguz95
Smash Lord
Bcuz Vanguard
Kaeldiar
Smash Ace
I think Squirtle is going to be low tier because he will be unused. With Mario's new buffs, Mario is basically a better Squirtle in terms of functionality. When you look at how the two work, they are very similar. Squirtle is faster, but lacks the reliable KO power. Mario has more weapons.
As a Link main, I can say that YES Link gets combo'd easily. What can be very difficult, though, is getting him into a combo. He keeps opponents at range VERY well, with projectiles and Spin Attack. Link is a very good "on-stage" edgeguarder. He's not so great at going out and getting them like Fox, but he has projectiles and a sword to keep them off. My brother played Fox all the time, so I know that match-up very well, and I know that if Link can get Fox off the stage, he is dead. Link covers all of Fox's recovery options with f-smash and Spin Attack. Link's tilts being sped up means all sorts of good for the Hero of Time. It means he can keep those spaces away and out of combo range. I still don't see him being top tier, but Link is a whole lot better than people give him credit for.
As a Link main, I can say that YES Link gets combo'd easily. What can be very difficult, though, is getting him into a combo. He keeps opponents at range VERY well, with projectiles and Spin Attack. Link is a very good "on-stage" edgeguarder. He's not so great at going out and getting them like Fox, but he has projectiles and a sword to keep them off. My brother played Fox all the time, so I know that match-up very well, and I know that if Link can get Fox off the stage, he is dead. Link covers all of Fox's recovery options with f-smash and Spin Attack. Link's tilts being sped up means all sorts of good for the Hero of Time. It means he can keep those spaces away and out of combo range. I still don't see him being top tier, but Link is a whole lot better than people give him credit for.
I think Link is one of the best (top 3-5) off-stage edgeguarders so I have no idea what you are talking about >_>. Neither f-smash nor spin attack cover all of fox's recovering options as well, though you can cover them all with nair offstage into reverse up-b.
alright I'm bored TIME FOR TIER LIST HERE WE GOOOOO
NOTE: this is grouped, so everyone in one line is similar enough in good-ness to each other
NOTE 2: I feel like characters are good enough where you could probably get away with whoever, but those closer to the top are more consistently good, whereas the ones closer to the bottom have more counterpick-heavy problems. don't let anyone get you down, just play what ya want
NOTE 3: this is a tier list made by some complete bozo, don't take it seriously you goof
(also zelda except THE BRAWL EMOTICON ISN'T THERE, WHY WOULD YOU HAVE A SHIELDA EMOTICON AND NOT A ZELDA EMOTICON COME ON)
the "I have no clue" ones
(ICs is always difficult to put any theories on short-term to begin with, could be amazing, could be piss)
(god I hope he's not good, he seems so dang BORING)
I feel like I missed someone. look I'm just doing this from the dang emoticon menu DON'T LOOK AT ME THAT WAY
NOTE 2: I feel like characters are good enough where you could probably get away with whoever, but those closer to the top are more consistently good, whereas the ones closer to the bottom have more counterpick-heavy problems. don't let anyone get you down, just play what ya want
NOTE 3: this is a tier list made by some complete bozo, don't take it seriously you goof
(also zelda except THE BRAWL EMOTICON ISN'T THERE, WHY WOULD YOU HAVE A SHIELDA EMOTICON AND NOT A ZELDA EMOTICON COME ON)the "I have no clue" ones
(ICs is always difficult to put any theories on short-term to begin with, could be amazing, could be piss) (god I hope he's not good, he seems so dang BORING)I feel like I missed someone. look I'm just doing this from the dang emoticon menu DON'T LOOK AT ME THAT WAY
Last edited:
Kaeldiar
Smash Ace
I don't do much off stage edgeguarding as Link because his recovery has historically been bad. I might have to try that…as far as covering Fox onstage, I was thinking about Final Destination where Fox can't land on a platform. Here are those circumstances:
1. Fox uses up-b or side-b to land on the stage, but closer to the edge than Link: Link uses Spin Attack or f-smash to hit him back off before he lands.
2. Fox uses up-b or side-b to land on the stage, behind Link: Link rolls to the left once, winds up in the position in 1, and uses Spin Attack or f-smash to hit him back off before he lands. Fox's recovery is so telegraphed you have plenty of time.
3. Fox tries to up-b or side-b through Link: Link uses Spin Attack.
4. Fox sweetspots the ledge: Link places himself ~1/2 of a dodge roll(? I'm not sure about the exact distance, I'd have to check) away from the ledge and uses Spin Attack as soon as Fox starts to come back on. If he ledge attacks, he'll get hit off. If he jumps, Link has time to move so that he can then Spin Attack Fox off when he lands. If he rolls on, he'll get hit by the last hit of Spin Attack and get sent off the other side.
When Fox CAN land on a platform, it's a little more complex, but Link can use some sort of aerial attack to either knock him back off (f-air, n-air), kill outright if the percentage is even relatively high (d-air), kill outright if the percentage is really high (u-air), or do some good damage and launch into more stuff (u-air).
So, I guess his onstage edgeguarding is a little more complex than just up-b/f-smash, but we can agree that if Link can get his opponent off the stage (not too terribly hard), it's very tricky to get back on. Granted, Fox's recovery is probably in the bottom 50%, but Link has some great edgeguarding weapons if you're facing someone not named ROB.
Link has one of the best recoveries in PM.
If fox ledge attacks his invincibility frames will hit you out of spin attack unless you shield first. Regardless, sweetspoting the edge and then instant ledge dash while retaining invincibility into anything beats all of those options every single time.
What you should do is just jump off the stage and nair covering the side-b height, if he jumps and side-bs and you hit him then fall with him and nair him again when he up-bs. If he drops down just fastfall nair and intercept his up-b, you will either trade or beat it with nair, either way if he's still close enough you reverse up-b and hit him off while recovering and repeat the process, it covers all of fox/falcos recovery options except low % shinestall jump into airdodge onstage(though at that low% I just wait a bit on stage for that option and then run off nair).
If fox ledge attacks his invincibility frames will hit you out of spin attack unless you shield first. Regardless, sweetspoting the edge and then instant ledge dash while retaining invincibility into anything beats all of those options every single time.
What you should do is just jump off the stage and nair covering the side-b height, if he jumps and side-bs and you hit him then fall with him and nair him again when he up-bs. If he drops down just fastfall nair and intercept his up-b, you will either trade or beat it with nair, either way if he's still close enough you reverse up-b and hit him off while recovering and repeat the process, it covers all of fox/falcos recovery options except low % shinestall jump into airdodge onstage(though at that low% I just wait a bit on stage for that option and then run off nair).
