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Tier List Speculation

Ginge

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 13, 2013
Messages
687
Location
New Jersey
Oh sure. I was just saying my experience with Ness as Kirby is "Get Ness off the stage. Make him stay off the stage. Gimp."

But Ness could totally deal with some buffs to his A moves. But I'd also say he needs his PK Fire nerfed a little. The Ness vs Bowser matchup can get a little ridiculous.
 

Nguz95

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
1,419
Location
Washington, DC
PK fire can be smash died really quickly. Unfortunately it's a pretty bad projectile if the opponent knows how to smash di it.
 

Kankato

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 5, 2013
Messages
239
Location
SoCal
Seeing how tight the tier spread is, do you guys think our time would be better used constructing a Giant Collective Matchup Chart?

Once people have significantly developed some characters, we use the character subforum to discuss matchups and bring consensus data to a chart. Each matchup needs a brief paragraph describing the numbers (50:50, 60:40) and why. Only include known/developed MU with evidence (frame data, match statistics). Higher skill play should take precedence of over lower skill play, and if there's a known discrepancy between to players and not necessarily the characters, note it. This is about characters, not their players.

As the Metagame grows and changes, so will the chart. New tech, Changes in thinking, and Tournament Results will be intergrated as time goes on. The chart would act as a dynamic entity that could identify discrepancies in character viability relative to the cast and predict how character popularity skews tournament balance (I.e. if a tourney has a lot of Mario mains, then characters with an advantageous MU will do better). This chart could also point out good choices for pocket characters to avoid bad MUs should one choose a secondary. That's the sort of helpful information Tier lists don't provide.

It would be a lot of work (a LOT) debating 1681 matchups, gathering evidence to support arguements, putting all the data in one place and accounting for player skill, but it's a community-wide project. Project M-U, if you will. As a community project, if the community lacks a strong G&W player to weigh in on MUs, don't feel pressured into baseless speculation to fill chart space. Emptiness means unexplored territory, which is a good way to describe this game ATM.

If it's easier making Tier Lists then feel free to continue. They do take much less work and aren't trapped in such obscure details like a MU chart would, and as lists are published the wisdom of the crowd provides a census over perceived viability, which accidentally accounts for an individual's knowledge of the cast. The Collective MU chart is just a thought that sounds incredibly hard to pull off and I personally lack the experience, time, wisdom and merit to attempt such a thing, but I thought I'd share my idea with you guys.

tl;dr I think focusing on a giant MU chart would help the community in the long run, but I'm a noob so feel free to shut me down.
 

mYzeALot

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 4, 2011
Messages
213
I really would like a matchup spread in a game like this because a low tier character might just have an amazing matchup against one of the top tiers. It would take a really long time to make, and a lot of effort to constantly change it, but it would be awesome to have.
 

Nguz95

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
1,419
Location
Washington, DC
I might be able to make this MU spread Kankato. At first it'll be a bunch of my opinions without much explanation, but that's why everybody else is here: to make sure I don't screw up too badly lol.
 

Juushichi

sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
5,518
Location
Columbus, Ohio
maybe at the very least you should wait until longer than 2 weeks after 3.0's release.

how about everyone gets some tournaments under their belts, some good play time, chill out and play/watch APEX, etc, etc.

and not feel like they have to jump the gun on making a MU chart. discussing viability and how character x does vs character y is fine, but c'mon. jumping the shark here is an understatement.

people still can't decide on a MU chart for a game that's been out for almost 13 years. or one that has been out for about 6.
 

Rat

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 20, 2005
Messages
1,870
Location
Chicago
Naw, 2 weeks is all we need. Complete match-up knowledge is here.

Fox == MK > Everyone else
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
people still can't decide on a MU chart for a game that's been out for almost 13 years. or one that has been out for about 6.

that's because they're stupid and combative, not due to a lack of MU knowledge.
 

Jacob29

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 17, 2013
Messages
530
if you don't think that the opponent being able to severely gimp your recovery solely through existing slightly above you isn't a pretty notable drawback idk what to tell you

So don't recover low? What Ness is going to try and recover right next to the stage where anyone can easily jump on top of him.

A good Ness will try and sweetspot the ledge from above, out of jump distance, or go to a platform if he reads you going for the sweetspot.
 

Kankato

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 5, 2013
Messages
239
Location
SoCal
maybe at the very least you should wait until longer than 2 weeks after 3.0's release.

how about everyone gets some tournaments under their belts, some good play time, chill out and play/watch APEX, etc, etc.

and not feel like they have to jump the gun on making a MU chart. discussing viability and how character x does vs character y is fine, but c'mon. jumping the shark here is an understatement.
I couldn't agree more. The game needs time to develop before we get any real numbers, but you could kick start such a large project following some new tournament data (say... Apex?).
 

9bit

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Messages
2,740
Location
Illinois
Also it would be cool to see the "archives" of a matchup spread. Like, years from now you could look back at its humble beginnings and smirk at how wrong it was.

I say go for it. Start it now, why not.
 

trash?

witty/pretty
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vancouver bc
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????
I like how all the proposals is "don't recover low", as if the person edgeguarding can't force situations you don't like pretty god damn easily, even more so if they immediately know you want to stay as far away from a certain recovery option as possible
 

Bryonato

Green Hat
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Apr 24, 2012
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1,294
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Lewiston, ID
I like how all the proposals is "don't recover low", as if the person edgeguarding can't easily force situations you don't like pretty god damn easily, even more so if they immediately know you want to stay as far away from a certain recovery option as possible
While there will always obviously be those situations, the hitbox around ness' body when pkt comes out and generally the tail hitbox on the bolt itself make it hard enough to eat pkt. not to mention if you DO fail to eat the bolt you're probably going to get pkt2'd in the face esp. considering Ness is invincible for the first few frames of it
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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Feb 12, 2006
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Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
It's not that Ness always has to avoid going low. I just stated that clearly that is the best opportunity for the opponent, because the variety of timings and "protection" options like Fair that he can use at higher points is usually pretty sufficient at stopping the cheese. If you look at the frame data for both sides, for how much they have to commit, Ness really doesn't have much vulnerability for getting it absorbed by the opponent's body. The other person usually has to jump out early, have options for dealing with Fair or Dair or occasionally PK Fire to cover him as he falls, they have to be able to keep up with any possible tricky fast falls or Double Jumps, etc. Ness has to pick a "non stupid" time to do it, which is pretty leniant.

The proposition that Ness is massively crippled by this flaw, when it usually takes a decent chain of specific actions and considerations from the opponent before they succeed, isn't that convincing. It's something to look out for, but his recovery is still pretty good all things considered.
 

Jacob29

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 17, 2013
Messages
530
I like how all the proposals is "don't recover low", as if the person edgeguarding can't force situations you don't like pretty god damn easily, even more so if they immediately know you want to stay as far away from a certain recovery option as possible

Ok so how do you get Ness low? I mean it IS possible, ofc it is. But how is it incredibly easy? If Ness DI's correctly he should be headed towards the top corner.
 

trash?

witty/pretty
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I was about to explain in some condescending manner but really that image is a more optimized version of anything I could have ever said
 

trash?

witty/pretty
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that "one character" happens to be one you'll be seeing constantly from melee veterans due to familiarity, happens to be considered the best in the game by most players, and, because of his moves, will be killing you the second you get nudged off the stage once

so, you know, no pressure. jk, there's nothing but pressure that's kind of fox's deal

(if you want a sincere answer: anyone who forces you low to begin with like fox, or basically anyone with aerials. oh you want to land on an upper platform? well hell I play MK, I got a perfectly good bair here I'd like to sell you)
 

Scythe

Smash Master
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Dec 5, 2004
Messages
3,875
i dont see how you can buff ness's recovery any further without it becoming absolutely ridiculous lol
 

Jacob29

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 17, 2013
Messages
530
that "one character" happens to be one you'll be seeing constantly from melee veterans due to familiarity, happens to be considered the best in the game by most players, and, because of his moves, will be killing you the second you get nudged off the stage once

so, you know, no pressure. jk, there's nothing but pressure that's kind of fox's deal

(if you want a sincere answer: anyone who forces you low to begin with like fox, or basically anyone with aerials. oh you want to land on an upper platform? well hell I play MK, I got a perfectly good bair here I'd like to sell you)

Actually, while I don't have much of a sample rate, I've seen hardly any Fox players in PM.

But alright yeah fine, there are ways to get Ness down.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
Poor Ness, losing to Charizard's Nair since 2001
 

Sashimi

Smash Ace
Joined
May 25, 2013
Messages
704
Coming from someone who doesn't even have an Up+B, I don't think any character needs a buffed recovery at the moment.
 

KayB

Smash Master
BRoomer
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Jan 2, 2013
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The only big glaring problem with Ness' Melee recovery was it's silly collision effects with the stage. Other than that, it was balanced enough.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
Ness's Melee recovery was kind of dookie pants. He didn't travel as far, took longer to loop, and if he was interrupted the PK couldn't save him by being a hostile hitbox. Yeah suffice to say Ness no fun had
 

KayB

Smash Master
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Ness's Melee recovery was kind of dookie pants. He didn't travel as far, took longer to loop, and if he was interrupted the PK couldn't save him by being a hostile hitbox. Yeah suffice to say Ness no fun had
He traveled pretty damn far. I mean the distance wasn't noteworthy, but nevertheless it was quite far in comparison to many other recoveries in the game.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
The stage part though wasn't the downside. Most Ness players were used to sweetspotting FD by hugging the wall, or how to angle in general to avoid wacky bounce offs
 
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