Tier List Speculation

[~Frozen~]

Ike's sword in 2.1 had reduced hitlag on shields, essentially making his moves safer on block. It's much easier to punish him OOS now even with his enormous range.

 

[DrinkingFood]

It actually still has reduced hitlag... at the tip. On the inner hitboxes it does more damage, giving it better shield stun.

 

[DMG]

Ike has a longggg list of tweaks and nerfs since the old days. I'll list off some of the more prominent stuff of what is negative or changed:

1. Shield pushback was fixed. Ike's attacks used to push people back very far, since they were already intended to be strong hits. This made him safer on shield than he "actually" should be

2. Hitlag from sword attacks was reverted to normal.

3. Reduced Side B walljumps from infinite to... 3? I think. Prevents extraordinary recovery on stages like Draculas

3.1 His spinning sword during Upb "covers" Ike less than it did before. The hitbox used to be deceptively big and made edgeguard attemps quite laborious for many characters if they didn't have a sword or a disjointed tilt/Dair to work with. This was made easier so that given good timing and spacing, more characters can at least try to trade with the move instead of outright lose to it.

4. Sweetspot system reworked so that hits near the tip of the sword are weaker. This properly gave Ike an incentive to hit with the meaty part of his sword, instead of barely scraping a person and still sending them flying just as far. Stuff like tipper spaced Fairs weren't as lethal either

All of these combined together have made Ike a much less cheesy character. Comparatively as well, other characters during that time frame have gotten more noticeable buffs, where as most buffs for Ike are Quality of Life, or minor tweaks that make sense instead of more tools/buffed tools

 

[DrinkingFood]

DMG, ike didn't have a stun multiplier. He had a .5x hitlag multiplier for all sword attacks, but it didn't apply to the opponent when they shielded. What caused the "additional stun" was just ike experiencing less hitlag while the opponent experienced normal hitlag. It was changed so that only the sword tip has this reduced hitlag property.
Magus explained this in a post awhile back.

It's part of what upset me (and possibly other ike mains too) back when the change was made- hitting anywhere else on the sword gave ike normal hitlag instead of reduced, throwing off timings for SHFFLs and L-cancels.

 

[DMG]

He didn't stun longer? Bullpoop

K either way, Ike was safer than x character doing y attack and therefore is z (not that great)

 

[DrinkingFood]

Well, effectively it was longer stun. Just for a weird reason.

 

[DMG]

I thought it was more shield stun though, because they specifically included shields in describing his multiplier. Hmm

 

[MLGF]

So alright, I get what you're saying. The biggest nerf is how much less safe Ike is on block. Alright, that actually makes a lot of sense, thank you.

 

[cmart]

DMG - the sheild stun wasn't longer, but the hitlag Ike suffered was shorter. The end result was the same - Ike was safer on shields than other characters.

 

[DMG]

Ok cmart-san ty

 

[Sashimi]

when do you guys think we will get an actual tier list?

Unless the PMBR feels like making one, I don't think there will be an official 64/Melee/Brawl style tier list. The game is too balanced and the meta is too young for us to really be sure whether character x is 13th or 14th on the tier list. That difference is much too small in this game, and it's difficult for people to even agree on it if there's no official group involved in the decision. It's still fairly easy to group the characters together (even this isn't unanimous yet), but that might change as other characters develop actual metagames. Even the characters that seem bottom tier are viable, so it's almost unnecessary to have a tier list anyway.

 

[Ogopogo]

kirby's only high-end problem is spacing issues (especially against other air-mobile characters, jiggs is silly), and if your character doesn't have great spacing then there's a good chance he can open you up

Wario, Marth, and Mewtwo have the tools to poop on Kirby.

p.s. We need to bring back the Fun tier list, because Kirby is waaaay up there.

 

[Deleted member]

ganon for s tier by himself in fun tiers.

i chaingrab into suicide b kills to show the opponent that i am not afraid.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

ganon for s tier by himself in fun tiers.

i chaingrab into suicide b kills to show the opponent that i am not afraid.

suiSIDE b....heheh...I agree...

 

[Plum]

Disrespect tier

Top tier
Ganon jab kills
Ganon down b suicide kill
Ganon side b suicide kill
Ganon reverse Uair reset into Sparta
Ganon Up B offstage kills
Ganon down angled Ftilt edgeguard

Low Tier
anything not involving Ganon

 

[Ogopogo]

My brother used Sonic's neutral-b repeatedly to get me away from the stage. Once we were far away enough when he did it again I ganoncided :>

 

[Ripple]

Falcon vs Samus feels unbearable in that regard, because the crawl ball too hard to hit or grab. Low crouching **** being buffed is not what Falcon likes, no gusta. Make everyone tall and fatty Ganon sized, with tiny arms and hitboxes. Give Falcon free reign

Edit: Ripple I dunno if you liked this post because you agree on Samus v Falcon, or if you agree with the utopian society with Falcon in our hearts everywhere

I think you know

 

[DMG]

I'm gonna say both and call it a draw

 

[Starcutter]

what do you guys feel about ness' position on the tier list? I saw a lot of people put him low in 2.6 and I don't think there was any changes to him, so my guess is still low? shame, cause I want to main him.

 

[Ginge]

what do you guys feel about ness' position on the tier list? I saw a lot of people put him low in 2.6 and I don't think there was any changes to him, so my guess is still low? shame, cause I want to main him.

He still has one of the most gimp-able recoveries. Especially against Kirby or any aerial character. Lucas's at least passes through opponents.

 

[Starcutter]

He still has one of the most gimp-able recoveries. Especially against Kirby or any aerial character. Lucas's at least passes through opponents.

ah that's why. hm.

well, at least it goes a lot faster than Lucas'. I'm honestly clueless as to how they could buff it. maybe having less endlag on the down B would help in some way? I'm also tempted to say give him his yo-yo as a tether.

 

[SixSaw]

Ness' recovery does not need buffs. His low tier placement has to do with a lacking neutral game vs characters that can deal with pk fire and outspace his fair.

 

[CORY]

yeah, if you recover next to the stage, you stand a good chance of getting your thunder eaten. but, you don't need to upb near the stage as ness. you can get to the middle of fd from the edge of the visible area with just upb. it's kind of sick.

edit: maybe not the middle of fd, but you can get comfortably back on stage, combined with his good aerial control and super low landing lab after upb.

 

[DMG]

LOL

Please don't buff Ness's recovery, jesus plz no

Ness needs help onstage with neutral a bit. He's so linear and focused on "safe but leads into nothing really" vs "not safe but might lead into something"

 

[Soft Serve]

^ this

Ness can stuff most approaches and approach himself with his fair, but he can't convert much out of it besides a grab at low percents. granted, he can do a ton with a grab at low percents, but unless he can cheese the opponent with pk-fire or bad DI on fairs, he doesn't have many options to get anything started besides hail-mary grabs and dairs.

Magnet djcancel shenanigans gave him some new tools to work with in 2.5, but its hardly safe and he's no lucas in the neutral game.

 

[| Big D |]

Please don't nerf Dedede.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I dunno if I agree with Roy losing to Kirby or Mewtwo not being slightly favored. I blame that on the small pool of Kirby players though, hard to say if this pink fuzz can do anything meaningful or not

He can. I promise.

 

[B.W.]

Kirby's the bee's knees. People will see it.

Still though, T.Link guys. He's awesome. Jolteon go do real stuff already jeez.

 

[Nguz95]

Young Link is awesome. Toon Link... Naw.

 

[Mr.Random]

Discuss characters' potentials and how they stack up against the rest of the cast here.

Feel free to discuss why your tier list makes sense, and what people are likely missing in theirs.

This stuff below is out of date.

Spoiler

If we get some people putting out their tier lists, I'll average them (or someone else can) and I'll put them up on the OP.

Please keep in mind the tier list averages do not reflect an actual official tier list.

Hopefully I don't get shot for making this thread, lol.

-If you give me your own personal tier list, I will place it into my Excel Spreadsheet with your username and list of 33 characters in order. I'm going to ignore Top/High/etc. and just put it into numerical order.
-This means you do not have to edit your original tier list post. Just re-post it and I will know based on your username whether I am making a new column or just updating an old one.
-I am ignoring Shielda as a character despite her utility. No arguments on this. ^_^
-Putting SHeLL's idea into action. Poll will run for a bit as to what the top 8 characters are. ~Can't make polls

As of 1/24/13:

Average From 15 Tier Lists​

Top​

1. Fox

2. Falco

3. Sheik

4. Marth

5. Peach

6. Mario

High​

7. Jigglypuff

8. Lucario

9. Ike

10. Diddy

11. Pit

12. Wolf

13. Falcon

Mid​

14. Link

15. Snake

16. Ganondorf

17. Sonic

18. Pikachu

19. Lucas

20. Squirtle

Low​

21. Zelda

22. DonkeyKong

23. Bowser

24. Zero SuitSamus

25. Wario

26. Ivysaur

27. Toon Link

Bottom​

28. Charizard

29. DeDeDe

30. R.O.B.

31. Ness

32. Luigi

33. Game and Watch

Point totals:

Spoiler

Fox 21
Falco 32
Sheik 92
Marth 130
Peach 132
Mario 139
Puff 142
Lucario 169
Ike 200
Diddy 217
Pit 220
Wolf 269
Falcon 278
Link 298
Snake 298
Ganondorf 310
Sonic 329
Pikachu 345
Lucas 356
Squirtle 379
Zelda 380
DK 396
Bowser 398
ZSS 409
Wario 412
Ivysaur 418
TL 421
Zard 431
D3 460
ROB 472
Ness 485
Luigi 491
GnW 567

As of 1/3/13:

Spoiler

Credit to MCO for averaging.

You going to update this ^? I like having an up to date "unofficial" tier list. Obviously for 3.0 we need to wait for a bunch of tourney results.

 

[Jacob29]

I think with proper spacing Roy (and anyone else with long range attacks) can beat Kirby.

 

[Oracle]

I was gonna do the update for 2.6 but it took too long. I can still compile the stats if yall want but itll be for 2.6

 

[CORY]

very disappoint

 

[The_NZA]

He still has one of the most gimp-able recoveries. Especially against Kirby or any aerial character. Lucas's at least passes through opponents.

His position has nothing to do with recovery and everything to do with no range or space control outside of a forward b projectile that, when figured out, causes the character to lose like 20% of his potency. He also lacks the mobility to make up for his **** lack of range, meaning Ness can effectively cause good damage on hit, but he has a hard as hell time getting a hit in.

 

[Jacob29]

He still has one of the most gimp-able recoveries. Especially against Kirby or any aerial character. Lucas's at least passes through opponents.

Is it really THAT gimpable?

I thought not a lot of things stopped him once he hits himself, it can sweet spot the ledge from above too.

The only time he is gimpable is after its finished I thought?

 

[Plum]

just run out there and smack him before he hits himself with PKT
not like he'll be able to defend himself
hell a lot of times you can just body block the PKT and Ness falls helpless
that's what makes him so gimpable

 

[trash?]

if you don't think that the opponent being able to severely gimp your recovery solely through existing slightly above you isn't a pretty notable drawback idk what to tell you

 

[Bryonato]

Idk about other Ness players but if I pkt I often choose to do it NOT right next to the stage where someone can just come and jump into idk.

I tend to like to recover high.

 

[DMG]

The range that Ness has with his recovery is long enough that he usually can afford to readjust his spacing based on offstage edgeguarding threats from the opponent, and then use the move. Like the distance is long enough, that most characters sans Captain Falcon REALLY have to be leaping out there and already be quite offstage when he starts Upb. Your best hope to pull that off is to run/fall off the stage if he has to recover from below. If he is recovering from higher up, or closer to stage level, that's not usually the best of ideas.

 

[Bryonato]

Ok so we can agree if something needs to be changed about Ness it's NOT his recovery k cool