Nguz95
Smash Lord
Ganon will rise. He is the King of Thieves, and as the king, he will not be put down for long. The power of the Arty Vortex will propel him beyond his arch nemesis Craptain Falcon.
-
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Jade_Rock55
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2013
- Messages
- 1,047
- 3DS FC
- 4656-7001-2336
We need captain Falcon in a zelda game now.
Banjodorf
Dynamic Duo
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2007
- Messages
- 8,455
- NNID
- bluefalcon27
- 3DS FC
- 2105-8715-5493
Ever seen Vist play Luigi? Luigi definitely is capable of winning tourneys, and did win the 3.0 one at Xanadu last week. Zard and Squirtke, and especially Ganon and Ness I agree with though. Lucario definitely has the tools to succeed in the right hands. (Vanguard's Lucario OP)
Nguz95
Smash Lord
Ganon is better than people give him credit for. Choke Slam+Reverse Wizard's Foot=Tech chases for days.
Burnsy
Smash Lord
Luigi has a few high caliber players that have been using him since Melee. The same cant really be said about Lucario and Squirtle in my opinion. Its not fair to compare their lack of results to someone like Vist .
Luigi should be hella envious of squirtle's max air speed/air friction, projectiles, gimping moves, small hurtbox, and armored/disjointed moves.
Nguz95
Smash Lord
Luigi ain't jealous of nobody... Except his brother...
Ginge
Smash Ace
Wreck-It Ralph 2's plot revealed.
Banjodorf
Dynamic Duo
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2007
- Messages
- 8,455
- NNID
- bluefalcon27
- 3DS FC
- 2105-8715-5493
Hell yeah Ganon!
That's fair. Luigi (and also Ganon) have had a hell of alot more time. Lucy and Squirts need both more time and more players to pick them up before their potential is unlocked. I think Lucario's is just because of the high learning curve that comes with the aura-enhanced abilities, but MAN does Vanguard know how to make it look easy.
With all that noted, I think we might need more time to really judge whether or not they can compete with the rest of the cast. I mean, PM M2 and Roy just came out, as well. Mewtwo's game is gonna be totally different.
That's fair. Luigi (and also Ganon) have had a hell of alot more time. Lucy and Squirts need both more time and more players to pick them up before their potential is unlocked. I think Lucario's is just because of the high learning curve that comes with the aura-enhanced abilities, but MAN does Vanguard know how to make it look easy.
With all that noted, I think we might need more time to really judge whether or not they can compete with the rest of the cast. I mean, PM M2 and Roy just came out, as well. Mewtwo's game is gonna be totally different.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Speculation: I think Mewtwo is probably easily top 3 right now. Literally every one of his moves (other than maybe the dash attack, and the throw) got significant direct or indirect buffs from Melee. He's also much harder to kill off the top, has an incredible combo/punish game, and punishing his recovery is next to impossible.
His kit is completely insane, even for someone who hasn't remotely technically mastered him yet. RAR->repeated float cancelled bairs gonna be too strongck.
I don't play him, but unless and until it proves to be an actual balance issue, I'm totally okay with this.
His kit is completely insane, even for someone who hasn't remotely technically mastered him yet. RAR->repeated float cancelled bairs gonna be too strongck.
I don't play him, but unless and until it proves to be an actual balance issue, I'm totally okay with this.
jtm94
Smash Lord
Surprised not to see any Yoshi hype.... He's pretty good... to say the least.
I don't play him, but I have been seeing people go nuts with him and there are people that can wreck in melee as Yoshi, so with all the new stuff and jump out of shield and DJ smash attacks OOS sounds pretty good to me, especially from an impenetrable fortress of a shield.
Roy is alright, he still may be lacking something... I think Neutral B is far too strong even uncharged it KOs way too early.
Ice Climbers make me sad... I really wish they had Melee handoffs... Wobbling is fine to take out, but they took what made them awesome v.v There has been 1 new infinite found out with them, but it seems sorta situational.
Samus has tons of new tech we need to wait for that. The same goes for Mewtwo. The same goes DOUBLE for Kirby since he never had a developed meta to begin with, lots of useful tools and that sidesmash/sideB are SO strong.
I think Ivy is still high level, I've been watching some people go straight from annoying 2.6b Ivy to 3.0 Ivy and play a completely different yet amazing playstyle with her. Methinks she may have further balancing down the road, but she's tolerable now.
I don't play him, but I have been seeing people go nuts with him and there are people that can wreck in melee as Yoshi, so with all the new stuff and jump out of shield and DJ smash attacks OOS sounds pretty good to me, especially from an impenetrable fortress of a shield.
Roy is alright, he still may be lacking something... I think Neutral B is far too strong even uncharged it KOs way too early.
Ice Climbers make me sad... I really wish they had Melee handoffs... Wobbling is fine to take out, but they took what made them awesome v.v There has been 1 new infinite found out with them, but it seems sorta situational.
Samus has tons of new tech we need to wait for that. The same goes for Mewtwo. The same goes DOUBLE for Kirby since he never had a developed meta to begin with, lots of useful tools and that sidesmash/sideB are SO strong.
I think Ivy is still high level, I've been watching some people go straight from annoying 2.6b Ivy to 3.0 Ivy and play a completely different yet amazing playstyle with her. Methinks she may have further balancing down the road, but she's tolerable now.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Working on it. Playing a technically strong kirby is damn hard. He's got the tools to compete with just about anyone, I think (has a *really* hard matchup against m2, Marth, and probably Roy, though) but it requires a finesse that just hasn't been developed yet.
Nguz95
Smash Lord
Air hammer, combo everything into air hammer.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Sort of, yeah. Without going into too many specifics atm, I think he can get a lot of mileage out of some of the Brawl techs that exist in PM.
Roy's uncharged neutral B is pretty fine as is. With good DI, it doesn't actually kill that early EXCEPT for completely offstage usage. Offstage hits with that move are literally carnage destruction, it's awesome.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Got the game working finally, and my roommate, that mostly plays Guilty Gear and as a Sol Main, immediately took a huge liking to Roy.
I'm probably going to be using Olimar since IC D-throw dair chain is so vastly different from Melee but I still want to be a massive f****t.
Yoshi feels honestly almost overpowering, and I'm perfectly fine with that.
I'm probably going to be using Olimar since IC D-throw dair chain is so vastly different from Melee but I still want to be a massive f****t.
Yoshi feels honestly almost overpowering, and I'm perfectly fine with that.
TheLostSabre
Smash Cadet
Well Roy did have that one move that was inspired by the guy himself.
This game is fun.
Personal Story-Time
So, following the SAME THING that happened when 2.5 was released, (in that I get to play for a couple days over a couple weeks before abandoning the game for what seems like eternity) it's happening with 3.0 now too.
I'll be playing with the locals occasionally throughout the new-year for a while, but only with a means of helping them out in the form of giving them some inspiration in the game and some basics around tournament-going or advancing their play, and some specifics to them individually since it will be primarily personal sessions. Nothing about severe re-fortification-habit-breakdowns to re-establish-mental-patterns and excel in developing personal meta-games or anything to that extent that I usually spam around here and discuss with more well-toned players, so that will be missed, for at least a while.
The 4 players that give each-other competition locally (by that I mean they're fairly evenly matched with each-other of a certain caliber of play that could at least do well against someone like me) aren't going to be very active. A couple of them just got back this week (one just yesterday) and one is leaving in a few days, then editing a full-length feature film for the next long-time upon return. The other is leaving for a big chunk of the new-year for travels. A third is busy with a seemingly serious relationship and work/school schedule, among other things. The last is more serious about DotA than anything, while preferring Melee so likely won't be up for PM if we ever do get to Smash. I'll also be gone for extended periods including most of Jan, and will be finishing web-maps followed by writing and drawing a graphic novel that's been in the making for many years, with any free-time I do get outside of every-day things. Aside from that, my play in Smash will be 100% for others, rather than 99% and 1% for my own work, and I'll be trying to slowly phase-out my captaining of the DotA team so I can commit more to the graphic novel project without screwing them over too hard while I'm gone for the while as well. Gaming won't exist for me in 2014 to any mention-worthy amount, in other words.
I'll still be around plenty though, regarding the internet and contact-ability, just to a much lesser extent in terms of expressiveness and activity in that from.
So GG any competitive play worth noting in this region for a significantly extended period of time.
Forum Story-Time
This will be my last post on the forums because of all that... AND because I'll have 999 posts (WOOP) and stuff will break if I go any further. *tru
Only lurking and private messages from here on. Message me or add me on Skype or whatever if you want to chat elsewhere. GG forums, you'll enjoy my absence. /lessrants/
I'll keep making Blogs and things if I feel like it too. If I feel something is of enough value that it's worth sharing, I'll do so in that manner.
In the meantime, and for now, here's simply my speculated thoughts on the Tier-List for this game currently, which I'll continuously update by editing it forever on this post, and I'll give a little scoop on each character here over time while I edit it. So people can know why/how this is playing out as it is. This is essentially the most sensible and efficient way and place for me to discuss the Characters and meta-game without actually interacting directly with the community. It's accessible, and can be all-encompassing as far as location and potential of the ever-growing post as well. Screw making new threads, that implies discussion to further the topic.
A Tier-List doesn't mean much since essentially every character is completely functional and perfectly fitting in this game, and this is a speculation at best, at that.
If no improvements or changes were made to this game, it would be fine. Naturally, some characters will be severely polarizing, and some completely centered, and there will always be order in qualities, especially 'goodness' in the overall game, but this all but solidifies how perfectly fine and balanced it is. It could be worse balance-wise and it would still be fine, so it's pretty sweet where it is right now.
Well done community, PMBR, and all involved.
On the Topic of Tier-Lists
Here's my best speculation, as for now.
All positions are pretty general anyway, give or take 5 and if it turns out to be more on either end, I consider it close enough.
3.0 series
S - Completely Viable (Can win a tournament alone, with only a few hurdles)
Lucas
Wolf
Luigi
Yoshi
Pikachu
Peach
Metaknight
A - Viable (Can win a tournament alone, but with more than a few hurdles)
Zero Suit Samus
Sonic
Pit
Wario
Kirby
Fox
Diddy Kong
Mario
Sheilda
B - Functional Viability (Can win a tournament alone, though possibly with many hurdles)
Captain Falcon
Mewtwo
Snake
Falco
Toon Link
Ivysaur
Marth
Link
Lucario
Ike
Donkey Kong
Sheik
Roy
Samus
C/B - Viably Functional (Probably won't win a tournament alone, but it's still possible since they're good enough to go far until their quirks come into play. Minor tweaks could do well for some, but nothing major, while some are perfect in this tier without changes due to their polarizing nature.)
Game & Watch
ROB
Jigglypuff
Charizard
Bowser
Ganondorf
Ness
Zelda
Olimar
Squirtle
F
Ice Climbers
Dedede
INFO ON TIERS C/B AND F
C/B
Game & Watch
- In terms of how good he is and how far he'll get, he's mid-B but can't go all the way.
ROB
- He's a counter-filled character by nature but is solid enough to fit in B as is.
Jigglypuff
- She's solid as she is, but lacks the slight dynamics and flexibility to break through.
Charizard
- He's solid as he is, but lacks the slight dynamics and flexibility to break through.
Bowser
- He's a counter-filled character by nature but is solid enough to fit in B as is.
Ganondorf
- He's a counter-filled character by nature but is solid enough to fit in B as is.
Ness
- He doesn't need any new tools, but some tweaks to him as he is would do him good.
Zelda
- She's counter-filled in nature outside of Sheilda, and anything that effects her effects the combo.
Olimar
- He's solid as he is, but lacks the slight dynamics and flexibility to break through.
Squirtle
- He doesn't need any new tools, but some tweaks to him as he is would do him good.
F (Permanent Ivan Ooze Tier)
Ice Climbers
- They get half a Tier because there's 2 of them and that makes their Hammers combo into 1 FULL DEDEDE HAMMER.
Good stuff everyone, enjoy life, stay aware, and be happy! :D
Edit:
- Post made Dec 18th 2013 for 3.0
- Spelling and elaboration.
- Post Updated Jan 20th 2014 for 3.02
- Added Sheilda to the list
- Re-Updated Jan 25th 2014 for 3.02
- New format and info cleared.
- Jan 29th = Retiring updating this
- Jan 30th = Maybe posting starts
Personal Story-Time
So, following the SAME THING that happened when 2.5 was released, (in that I get to play for a couple days over a couple weeks before abandoning the game for what seems like eternity) it's happening with 3.0 now too.
I'll be playing with the locals occasionally throughout the new-year for a while, but only with a means of helping them out in the form of giving them some inspiration in the game and some basics around tournament-going or advancing their play, and some specifics to them individually since it will be primarily personal sessions. Nothing about severe re-fortification-habit-breakdowns to re-establish-mental-patterns and excel in developing personal meta-games or anything to that extent that I usually spam around here and discuss with more well-toned players, so that will be missed, for at least a while.
The 4 players that give each-other competition locally (by that I mean they're fairly evenly matched with each-other of a certain caliber of play that could at least do well against someone like me) aren't going to be very active. A couple of them just got back this week (one just yesterday) and one is leaving in a few days, then editing a full-length feature film for the next long-time upon return. The other is leaving for a big chunk of the new-year for travels. A third is busy with a seemingly serious relationship and work/school schedule, among other things. The last is more serious about DotA than anything, while preferring Melee so likely won't be up for PM if we ever do get to Smash. I'll also be gone for extended periods including most of Jan, and will be finishing web-maps followed by writing and drawing a graphic novel that's been in the making for many years, with any free-time I do get outside of every-day things. Aside from that, my play in Smash will be 100% for others, rather than 99% and 1% for my own work, and I'll be trying to slowly phase-out my captaining of the DotA team so I can commit more to the graphic novel project without screwing them over too hard while I'm gone for the while as well. Gaming won't exist for me in 2014 to any mention-worthy amount, in other words.
I'll still be around plenty though, regarding the internet and contact-ability, just to a much lesser extent in terms of expressiveness and activity in that from.
So GG any competitive play worth noting in this region for a significantly extended period of time.
Forum Story-Time
This will be my last post on the forums because of all that... AND because I'll have 999 posts (WOOP) and stuff will break if I go any further. *tru
Only lurking and private messages from here on. Message me or add me on Skype or whatever if you want to chat elsewhere. GG forums, you'll enjoy my absence. /lessrants/
I'll keep making Blogs and things if I feel like it too. If I feel something is of enough value that it's worth sharing, I'll do so in that manner.
In the meantime, and for now, here's simply my speculated thoughts on the Tier-List for this game currently, which I'll continuously update by editing it forever on this post, and I'll give a little scoop on each character here over time while I edit it. So people can know why/how this is playing out as it is. This is essentially the most sensible and efficient way and place for me to discuss the Characters and meta-game without actually interacting directly with the community. It's accessible, and can be all-encompassing as far as location and potential of the ever-growing post as well. Screw making new threads, that implies discussion to further the topic.
A Tier-List doesn't mean much since essentially every character is completely functional and perfectly fitting in this game, and this is a speculation at best, at that.
If no improvements or changes were made to this game, it would be fine. Naturally, some characters will be severely polarizing, and some completely centered, and there will always be order in qualities, especially 'goodness' in the overall game, but this all but solidifies how perfectly fine and balanced it is. It could be worse balance-wise and it would still be fine, so it's pretty sweet where it is right now.
Well done community, PMBR, and all involved.
On the Topic of Tier-Lists
Here's my best speculation, as for now.
All positions are pretty general anyway, give or take 5 and if it turns out to be more on either end, I consider it close enough.
3.0 series
S - Completely Viable (Can win a tournament alone, with only a few hurdles)
Lucas
Wolf
Luigi
Yoshi
Pikachu
Peach
Metaknight
A - Viable (Can win a tournament alone, but with more than a few hurdles)
Zero Suit Samus
Sonic
Pit
Wario
Kirby
Fox
Diddy Kong
Mario
Sheilda
B - Functional Viability (Can win a tournament alone, though possibly with many hurdles)
Captain Falcon
Mewtwo
Snake
Falco
Toon Link
Ivysaur
Marth
Link
Lucario
Ike
Donkey Kong
Sheik
Roy
Samus
C/B - Viably Functional (Probably won't win a tournament alone, but it's still possible since they're good enough to go far until their quirks come into play. Minor tweaks could do well for some, but nothing major, while some are perfect in this tier without changes due to their polarizing nature.)
Game & Watch
ROB
Jigglypuff
Charizard
Bowser
Ganondorf
Ness
Zelda
Olimar
Squirtle
F
Ice Climbers
Dedede
INFO ON TIERS C/B AND F
C/B
Game & Watch
- In terms of how good he is and how far he'll get, he's mid-B but can't go all the way.
ROB
- He's a counter-filled character by nature but is solid enough to fit in B as is.
Jigglypuff
- She's solid as she is, but lacks the slight dynamics and flexibility to break through.
Charizard
- He's solid as he is, but lacks the slight dynamics and flexibility to break through.
Bowser
- He's a counter-filled character by nature but is solid enough to fit in B as is.
Ganondorf
- He's a counter-filled character by nature but is solid enough to fit in B as is.
Ness
- He doesn't need any new tools, but some tweaks to him as he is would do him good.
Zelda
- She's counter-filled in nature outside of Sheilda, and anything that effects her effects the combo.
Olimar
- He's solid as he is, but lacks the slight dynamics and flexibility to break through.
Squirtle
- He doesn't need any new tools, but some tweaks to him as he is would do him good.
F (Permanent Ivan Ooze Tier)
Ice Climbers
- They get half a Tier because there's 2 of them and that makes their Hammers combo into 1 FULL DEDEDE HAMMER.
Good stuff everyone, enjoy life, stay aware, and be happy! :D
Edit:
- Post made Dec 18th 2013 for 3.0
- Spelling and elaboration.
- Post Updated Jan 20th 2014 for 3.02
- Added Sheilda to the list
- Re-Updated Jan 25th 2014 for 3.02
- New format and info cleared.
- Jan 29th = Retiring updating this
- Jan 30th = Maybe posting starts
Last edited:
| Big D |
Smash Master
Ice Climbers and Dedede feel pretty good to me imho. Ice Climbers have such walling potential with blizzards now.
\Apples
Smash Journeyman
It's very clear Big D's weapon of choice is the hammer. Do you also play Kirby, my man?
Nguz95
Smash Lord
People keep on saying Yoshi... Why? Also, Weegee is my man, but I don't think he's a crazy good character at the moment.
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
So Weegee just won the first 3.0 tourney. Vist is pretty cray.
\Apples
Smash Journeyman
LOUFEEZI
10feezis
10feezis
What kind of techniques do you do with ICs? Particularly ones you do after desynchs.
Nguz95
Smash Lord
Big d has put a lot of stuff in the ic boards. It's all good stuff, so you should check it out.
Sashimi
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 25, 2013
- Messages
- 704
I was hoping someone better than me would answer this, but since no one has, I'll say what I can.
The PMBR took a character who (in Melee):
+ had a dangerous punish game onstage
- wasn't so great in the neutral game
- wasn't comfortable offstage or in shield (no real OoS options except shield dropping)
- had the best shield in the game, which was unfortunately useless because of OoS options
and gave that character:
+ the same combos, but with even more options (some of which now lead directly into kill moves)
+ a much better neutral game thanks to hitbox changes
+ recovery mixups
+ literally every move OoS, making Yoshi's shield absurdly good
In Melee, Yoshi had a lot of trouble getting to the opponent, but once he did, it was combos for everyone. PM Yoshi still does that, only now it's significantly easier to get in and start those combos, and there are more (and easier) combos to choose. He shrugs off shield pressure now, since he still can't be shield stabbed (in any game), but now has the option to DJC or DJL out of shield. It's also much easier to recover now, since Yoshi's knockback armour is increased, and he has access to Side B when recovering high, and rising DJC when recovering low.
Overall, Yoshi had some solid strengths and some serious flaws in Melee. PM Yoshi has the same pros, only slightly buffed, and the cons have been fixed, leaving very little to hold the character back.
| Big D |
Smash Master
Kirby looks fun but not for me.
For ICs once you are desynced you can play out of blizzard walls. You can throw in Ice blocks for added pressure/approach options. When they try and jump above you you can throw in upairs or start doing fullhop blizzards.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Blizz walls are great.
Bowser is not a character that should be talked about when speaking on the ability to deal with "most of the cast", imo.
Bowser is not a character that should be talked about when speaking on the ability to deal with "most of the cast", imo.
Blizz walls are distinctly worse than they were in brawl, I think they are kind of a trap in PM that will lead you to getting punished more often then not, especially on platform stages. Characters mobility and being able to waveland just lets them get over blizzard easily, and they often trade with blizzard while hitting you, which is horrible because you or nana just got hit while doing like 2% to them and removing all lag from their attack. Blizz walls can be useful but you need to be very careful with them in PM.
ViewtifulHoe242
Smash Journeyman
a xanadu tourney wowww :endsarcasm:
i saw that tournament, vist was a big fish in a small pond, he was the only pro player there
Nguz95
Smash Lord
Lol shots fired at poor Gimr and Jcaez. Those guys work their butts off to give you PM and VGBootcamp... They've got my respect.
NightShadow6
Smash Journeyman
Love that they didn't change charizard at all pretty much.
Nguz95
Smash Lord
Charizard is so cool. I wish i could play him; he's a bro.
deadjames
Smash Lord
cmart as well, he's a P:M dev. Aside from being Mr. VGBC, I feel like GIMR is a super underrated player as well.
Megapants
Smash Apprentice
Just wanted to chime in and say that Vist's Luigi has what it takes to win vs great players. He is especially sick against Spacies. At Pound 5.5, he knocked Chillindude and went 1-2 vs Mango's Fox. Vist had what it takes to get into Grand Finals at that tournament. At Bar Wars he got edged out by Chillin's Fox and M2K's Shiek in Loser's Finals. He's really only dropping sets to the best of the best.
Vist might not be pocketing hundreds of dollars off his wins, but he's definitely letting people know that Luigi is no joke. It's hard for me to say that Luigi is a top tier character, but he definitely has a lot of favorable or even matchups, particularly against spacies who are still sitting pretty up top.
Also shoutouts to Jcaesar's ROB who also made it to top 5 at both of those tournaments.
Vist might not be pocketing hundreds of dollars off his wins, but he's definitely letting people know that Luigi is no joke. It's hard for me to say that Luigi is a top tier character, but he definitely has a lot of favorable or even matchups, particularly against spacies who are still sitting pretty up top.
Also shoutouts to Jcaesar's ROB who also made it to top 5 at both of those tournaments.
Nguz95
Smash Lord
Edit: never mind