I'm kind of excited to see Taj bust out the Mewtwo in the AZ tournaments.
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
deadjames
Smash Lord
I feel like the only thing holding Luigi back is his terrible approach, so much of the cast has tools to stuff his approach options.
NeonApophis
Smash Apprentice
I think Taj has only ever entered one of our PM tournaments. I'd love it if Mewtwo incentivized him to come more, but I have a feeling that we won't be seeing too much more of him.
Kaeldiar
Smash Ace
I'd just like to chime in about Toon Link. (among a few others) I mained Link in 64, Link in Melee, and Link and Toon Link in Brawl, so I know how he plays in each game. Toon Link is like a small, fast, Smash 64 Link, which I don't think enough people seem to understand. I played him like I played Brawl Toon Link and failed miserably, then I tried my Smash 64 Link techniques (since some of the moves are copies) and my play vastly improved.
He's not top tier, and I doubt he's high tier, but a good Toon Link player could make a case for him being mid tier. He's strong defensively. He has several projectiles to prevent easy approaches, enough movement speed (aerial and ground) to get him to a good campy spot, and his up and side smashes have good body coverage, range and KO potential.
In addition, his grounded up-b has high priority to end combos. One very effective follow up I don't see is a short hop-down air while following the opponent after knocking him back. It's only slightly slower than following with a f-air or b-air and significantly stronger.
Cliff Notes version:
People think Toon Link is bad because he doesn't play like Brawl Toon Link. You have to think of him as a faster version of Smash 64 Link. Give him a chance.
LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP said: ↑
He's not top tier, and I doubt he's high tier, but a good Toon Link player could make a case for him being mid tier. He's strong defensively. He has several projectiles to prevent easy approaches, enough movement speed (aerial and ground) to get him to a good campy spot, and his up and side smashes have good body coverage, range and KO potential.
In addition, his grounded up-b has high priority to end combos. One very effective follow up I don't see is a short hop-down air while following the opponent after knocking him back. It's only slightly slower than following with a f-air or b-air and significantly stronger.
Cliff Notes version:
People think Toon Link is bad because he doesn't play like Brawl Toon Link. You have to think of him as a faster version of Smash 64 Link. Give him a chance.
LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP said: ↑
where can I find the replays doe
VGbootcamp's twitch has all of KoC3, among other Smash tourneys. They post them to their youtube account as well.
Kaeldiar
Smash Ace
Can a mod please delete this post? I'm fixing a double post, and I can't seem to find the "delete post" button
B.W.
Smash Champion
T.Link is amazing. High tier. Nobody is seeing it yet though.
Professor Pro
Smash Legend
I used to think TL was mid tier, then I played Jolteon and now I can confirm he is bottom 
Nguz95
Smash Lord
Play Fox then. That'll fix all your problems!
Bryonato
Green Hat
Dunno. I have yet to say any Tink player do/show off anything that really blows me away. Feel like he's just mid tier at best.
I think Kirby has some really good tools and a great gimping game, but he can be hard kill with and I haven't really been able to pull off any great (pseudo) combos.
(but that last part might be my own fault, haha)
(but that last part might be my own fault, haha)
Bryonato
Green Hat
I'm no Kirby player, but FSmash and Usmash though? Seem like great killing options.
Ginge
Smash Ace
As a Kirby player, I've gotten kills with ALL of his air moves quite regularly. And as Bryonato said, his F-smash and U-Smash are great kill options. His air game allows for aerial combos like Wall/Fence of Pain. And down-throw can be combo-ed if you read the DI right.
Bryonato
Green Hat
How does he match up vs sword characters? Feels like he might suffer from the infamous stubby arm syndrome.
Ginge
Smash Ace
He does suffer against the swordsmen. Which is to be expected of most close range fighters without projectiles (his Up-B is TECHNICALLY a projectile. But it's so readable if you only use that / don't mix in forward/reverse Final Cutters and Cutter Dashes.)
Edit: though a benefit that comes from his height and ducking height is how low he is to the ground. And the way that limits available attacks to fewer choices.
Falcon vs Samus feels unbearable in that regard, because the crawl ball too hard to hit or grab. Low crouching **** being buffed is not what Falcon likes, no gusta. Make everyone tall and fatty Ganon sized, with tiny arms and hitboxes. Give Falcon free reign
Edit: Ripple I dunno if you liked this post because you agree on Samus v Falcon, or if you agree with the utopian society with Falcon in our hearts everywhere
Edit: Ripple I dunno if you liked this post because you agree on Samus v Falcon, or if you agree with the utopian society with Falcon in our hearts everywhere
Kaeldiar
Smash Ace
...Toon Link's new f-smash helps some in that regard (good all around coverage and he moves forward a bit, giving it disjointed qualities), and he has better comboing ability than Link, but when Marth, Roy, and Meta Knight are the other sword users, Toon Link will likely end up being the last place sword user.That being said, the other sword users (minus Link) are going to end up high on the tier list, so it doesn't make much of a difference. He can still hold his own against other characters
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
That being said, the other sword users (minus Link) are going to end up high on the tier list, so it doesn't make much of a difference. He can still hold his own against other characters
Forgot Ike.
Fish&Herbs19
Smash Journeyman
That being said, the other sword users (minus Link) are going to end up high on the tier list, so it doesn't make much of a difference. He can still hold his own against other characters
I think Bryonato was talking about Kirby rather than Toon Link.
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
That too.
I'd like to know about that as well, since I'm considering adding Kirby to my mains.
Kaeldiar
Smash Ace
Oh, whoops. Kirby suffers that problem, too, but even greater. Can't remember if d-air has big knock back on grounded opponents, but if it doesn't, that could be L-canceled into an f-smash or d-smash. Kirby seems to have decent finishes, but little set-up for them. Lots of people seemed to like the Kirby improvements (according to another thread), but I have yet to see anyone play him well. I'll have to do some research and look for someone who plays a good Kirby in PM. At the moment, I think he'll still be pretty low tier.
Ginge
Smash Ace
Look around the Kirby character section. A few people have posted videos of semi decent to pretty good Kirby play.
kirby's only high-end problem is spacing issues (especially against other air-mobile characters, jiggs is silly), and if your character doesn't have great spacing then there's a good chance he can open you up
can't comfortably say he's top 10, but to me he's good enough, which is what I care about
can't comfortably say he's top 10, but to me he's good enough, which is what I care about
I wanted to update my personal tier list with 3.0 but I couldn't figure out who to place on the low end.
This game is just too good.
This game is just too good.
He's fast, small, and has a sword. You could give him only one move and he'd still be amazing.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
Nair or grab. I will take grab thank you very much.
D
Deleted member
Guest
move + amazing grab + marth dtilt + sheik ftilt = holy neutral game batman!
seriously just give MK lasers and get it over with.
seriously just give MK lasers and get it over with.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
I think Kirby destroys Roy, lol. 6-4 at least.
Kirby vs Marth is probably like 4-6... Kirby can hold down and mitigate a lot of Marth's game, he's got good air control on the offensive... but just like Jigglypuff, it's really really hard for him to get down when Marth has the juggle game up.
idk about Kirby vs Ike
Kirby vs Meta is probably like 4-6, but idk for sure. Both characters do really lame things to each other. I think Kirby can probably edgeguard MK better, but like... MK's onstage presence has to be a huge bane to Kirby.
Also, I had the (mis) pleasure of playing Mewtwo vs Kirby in "tournament" with Carls yesterday. It was the finals of a Single-Elim 3.0 Newcomers side tournament.I think the MU is pretty close to even (Mewtwo 45-55 Kirby) when I played it, but holy ba-jeebus is that annoying, lol.
imo, kirby is top ~15-20 good.
Kirby vs Marth is probably like 4-6... Kirby can hold down and mitigate a lot of Marth's game, he's got good air control on the offensive... but just like Jigglypuff, it's really really hard for him to get down when Marth has the juggle game up.
idk about Kirby vs Ike
Kirby vs Meta is probably like 4-6, but idk for sure. Both characters do really lame things to each other. I think Kirby can probably edgeguard MK better, but like... MK's onstage presence has to be a huge bane to Kirby.
Also, I had the (mis) pleasure of playing Mewtwo vs Kirby in "tournament" with Carls yesterday. It was the finals of a Single-Elim 3.0 Newcomers side tournament.I think the MU is pretty close to even (Mewtwo 45-55 Kirby) when I played it, but holy ba-jeebus is that annoying, lol.
imo, kirby is top ~15-20 good.
guedes the brawler
Smash Lord
when do you guys think we will get an actual tier list?
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
when someone bothers to make one
The_NZA
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2007
- Messages
- 1,979
When we actually have character information on more than like, 8 characters.
MLGF
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2013
- Messages
- 1,922
Can I just ask, as someone who feels he isn't good enough to comprehend tier positions, why is Ike usually midish in new tier lists? I recall back in 2.0 he was often cited as being top and since 2.6, he has recieved a lot of tools (NAir is a good example) to push him back to being close to his original quality, sweetspot aside. Now, is Ike's typical position based off progress in the Meta or just that he's just not the braindead Ike in 2.0?
Not complaining either way, I'm just wondering.
Not complaining either way, I'm just wondering.
Characters that are simple to play as, popular, or both usually dominate early in a metagame's life span (see: Brawl G&W, Wesker, Brawl D3). Not only are there less high level Ike players now but as the metagame has developed more, a lot of his flaws have been exploited much more.
Scythe
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2004
- Messages
- 3,875
his frame data in 2.0 was ridiculous, also there was a huge change to how the sweespots on his sword works.
MLGF
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2013
- Messages
- 1,922
Can I see some comparisons between the frame data please? Kinda don't know where to find it myself TBH.
And I'm aware of the sweetspoting. I just don't think his sourspot is as bad as say, Marth's sourspot. His FAir sourspot is still a great edge guarding tactic for example.
And I'm aware of the sweetspoting. I just don't think his sourspot is as bad as say, Marth's sourspot. His FAir sourspot is still a great edge guarding tactic for example.