Tier List Speculation

[SixSaw]

So many Wario nerfs.
At least nair is untouched.

 

[Nguz95]

Yay. That guy needed nerfs pretty badly. He didn't get as many as Ivy though.

 

[mYzeALot]

I am sad because Wario got nerfs, and Olimar seems soooo slow with all of his attacks with not the greatest combos. Pikmin also seem really easy to kill for my opponent if I throw one onto them, and his grab is super slow.

 

[andalsoandy]

The only Wario nerf that I really think was a poor decision was removing the crouch cancelled side b. Everything else is reasonable.

3.0b, please fix...

 

[Zwarm]

Time to start taking names with purple Squirtle and Icy-saur. :3

Purple Squirtle is a major buff, top 5 pls.

 

[Archangel]

This thread should probably close after testing out the recent build...it's now officially impossible to speculate who's where on the tier list and will be that way for probably about 2 years. Why is everyone so freaking good!?

anyways a few things, IC's....dare I say I enjoy playing them? :o I have played 20 total matches with IC's since 2001 because I don't like using them in melee at all they are silly little creatures but this game actually manages to make them fun to play.

Olimar, I see him taking his Brawl path once again, I won't say why...I just say...people will consider him bad then suddenly he'll be near the top.

Samus = A goddess

3.0 also seems like some characters that were knocked down in previous version finally seem good again. It's like...it's just ******** how amazing 3.0 is.

All I need now is to see "3.0b released - now includes melee techs and light shields" and I think I'll die.

 

[Nausicaa]

A real quick first-impression throw-down.
Really, not too many significant things happened.

S Tier
Lucas
Wolf
Yoshi < yeah... I feel I can just charge in and one day I'll know how to be immortal

A Tier
Wario < still a beast, still the same old Wario, but more emphasis on Wafts (that the mainstream seemed to ignore the free 1 min kills too often already, now just OMGWTF), instead of cheese that shouldn't work but somehow does (Side-B shinans)
Luigi < I'm just loving this
Mewtwo < similar to Yoshi with the immortal-offense thing, everything from the Jab to the TP > FC stuff is crazy-good
Mario
Metaknight < relied a lot on abusing shield stuff (Glide attacks to F-Smashes), and having good last-resort kills off the top, still amazing
Zero < relied a lot on abusing shield stuff too, but the loss of invincibility on Down-B is painful, at least Laser is useful, still that D-Smash tho
(I'm pretty sure my N-Air clanked with the reverse hit-box of a Fox F-Smash in a match already... ???)
Peach
Fox
Kirby < first match, I had a combo that was like Rock > Uair > Rock > Cutter > Rock... wtf feet too

B+ Tier
Pit < more solid
Snake < I like the direction this went (Tranq is cool, but more-so the trajectories and hit-box stuff)
Falco
Captain Falcon
Charizard
Lucario < yup, that auto-charge crap is this good

B Tier
Donkey Kong
Pikachu
Toon Link
Ivysaur < feels a lot more grounded (like, balanced and less silly) but exactly what 2.6 was TRYING to be, much better /design/ but not actually better/worse as a character, it seems (Up-B is sexier even, like really)
Sheik
Sonic < amazing what such tiny differences can do to a character that's so ridiculously fast
Link < shields hurt him (oddly)
Marth < shields hurt him (oddly)
ICs < Nana is confusing as **** right now AI-wise, but I'm loving this
Bowser < he'll still do his thing, Jab/Side-B/etc is still in tact, it's just more important to gravitate to that stuff instead of gimmicks
Squirtle < Wow, did not expect a SHORTER DD and easier DF-Tilt to have such an impact, I feel like playing this character is a fair fight again
Ike < better from this I think (oddly)
Ness < already, his ability to kill when he gets things is really coming through with this, the stages, the shields, the balancing elsewhere, he just kills so good and it shines now
Roy < F-Smash is so easy to land off like any hit at 50%... wow, and that 3rd hit of Side-B angled down is like a free win on falling things... and U-Tilt pivot approaches, and F-Tilt...
Jigglypuff < shields and stages and well-spread balance AWAY from polarization elsewhere helps, just like with Ness/Ike/etc
Diddy Kong < makes a big difference
Samus < A beast, but this shows how much better everyone else is in this game. She definitely isn't a Melee-copy. Un-charged Charge-shots upon landing are sluggish (massive lag if releasing just before landing), Grab is trash and neutralized relative to the niche it had in Melee (the presence is gone now), Z-Air doesn't auto-cancel on Full-Hops (so niche and key), ledge-cancelling Up-B from under platforms is still possible just trickier to time/less leeway/have to start earlier with momentum (universally a BnB Samus thing made tougher, akin to Falcon's Up-B momentum PM vs Melee in a way), but I guess those vs Peach and vs Marth etc specifics are made up for by the Ice-variation U-Smash (perfect for her) and the not-yet-under-control-but-possibly-better once I get PMs version down of SuperWD. Totally different character. The public better have learned how to pivot already.
Mr. Game & Watch < definitely nice, still meh
Zelda < meh
ROB < meh
Ganondorf < still meh

Secretly Ivan Ooze Tier Nobody Can Know
King Dedede



Old List (a page ago)

PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW​

full tier-list in order

S Tier
Lucas
Wario
Wolf

A Tier
Metaknight
Zero
Mario
Fox
Luigi
Peach

B+ Tier
Snake
Pit
Falco
Captain Falcon
Charizard

B Tier
Donkey Kong
Pikachu
Toon Link
Ivysaur
Sheik
Link
Marth
Bowser

B- Tier
Ike
Lucario
Ness
Diddy Kong
Jigglypuff
Sonic
Zelda
ROB
Mr. Game & Watch

C Tier
King Dedede
Squirtle
Ganondorf

PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW EPWEWEPAPEPAKPW​

​

 

[Juushichi]

The only Wario nerf that I really think was a poor decision was removing the crouch cancelled side b. Everything else is reasonable.

3.0b, please fix...

Being +12 on block at the back of an opponent's shield is not reasonable no matter how you spin it.

Sorry.

 

[MLGF]

Wow... I think this Wario fiasco is one of the first times the PMBR sacrificed character accuracy for the sake of balance.
GG Wario
GG PMBR

 

[Professor Pro]

Being +12 on block at the back of an opponent's shield is not reasonable no matter how you spin it.

Sorry.

Not only that...but also 'Oh I have a dash grab fake-out for Side B and when I actually commit to the real Side B I'm able to abort out of that one if you try to predict it and shield'

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's worth noting that the best way to capitalize on a predicted Wario Forward-B was/is to just hit it; there was/is a negative disjoint on all but the late hit. Most characters have a N-Air or B-Air that you could bust out to beat the shoulder, the grab, and the jump all at once.

 

[GunBlaze]

Being +12 on block at the back of an opponent's shield is not reasonable no matter how you spin it.

Sorry.

 

[Juushichi]

It's worth noting that the best way to capitalize on a predicted Wario Forward-B was/is to just hit it; there was/is a negative disjoint on all but the late hit. Most characters have a N-Air or B-Air that you could bust out to beat the shoulder, the grab, and the jump all at once.

I've had my fox nair get stuffed by that before, btw Reflex.

Also had my GnW bair trade and me die from it.

Shoutouts to Carls' Wario.

It's not as negatively disjointed as a lot of people would believe (if they even believe it).

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I dunno. If he's not hitting you with his fist, you should be beating it, IMO. Just aim for his head--

It also is less disjointed than the weakest grounded form when it goes into the air, but I don't have a picture for that right now.

EDIT: Now I do:

Regardless, now shielding and generally moving around is a much better defense than before.

 

[KayB]

Is anyone else having a lot of trouble landing IC's d-throw nair chaingrab?

 

[Sixth-Sense]

All I need now is to see "3.0b released - now includes melee techs and light shields" and I think I'll die.

THIS

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Olimar hits like a truck. The main difference between brawlimar and p:m olimar is that p:m olimar is a lot more mobile and likes the air a lot more, and I feel like fair has been buffed. Olimar now has autocombos into fair and bthrow still kills easily. Only having four pikmin makes pikmin management a lot easier, and pikmin management is what helps olimar the most. In addition, pikmin growth and damage increase is definitely a buff, as he can just dispose of his white pikmin by throwing them, and just reuse the rest with increasing damage each time. Also olimar's worm combo still exists lol. I'd put olimar at a highish tier, while he has some weaknesses, those weaknesses are easy enough to work around to the point where they don't really matter that much.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Olimar is short, which certainly helps him out. That's a nicer trait than people often give it credit for.

 

[\Apples]

Being +12 on block at the back of an opponent's shield is not reasonable no matter how you spin it.

Sorry.

How about removing the hitbox from the slide so its strictly a mobility option? Man, that sure is a really simple fix which removes the frame advantage problem but still gives him the option he really needs to excel.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Wario really excels by having an unblockable neutral special that can be done in the air, strong kill power, a faster fart (which I need to learn/get used to) and hilariously good grab range.

Wario XLs pretty good without one little thing.

 

[BJN39]

So, what are everyone's very first impressions on who's going to be more often consider better/worse in 3.0?

 

[PastLink]

Yeah i'm loving that olimar is back, i gotta say he combos really well. but i'm not gonna lie, i'd appreciate at least some light armor on the whistle. give him that and i wouldn't ever ask for another change to him (i think)

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

its increased speed would make any sort of armor kinda of crazy, and the speed is to help with high speed pikmin management, I think it's at its least stupid this way.

 

[Kankato]

I always wondered what would happen if Whistle canceled into Whistle. Pikmin mamagement would be lightning quick, but then someone might use one pikmin for everything and more...

 

[PastLink]

its increased speed would make any sort of armor kinda of crazy, and the speed is to help with high speed pikmin management, I think it's at its least stupid this way.

oh crap, i didn't even notice it was quicker haha

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Still waiting for all the fallout from Ivy's nerfs.
I think Roy and Mewtwo's abilities might be getting a little exaggerated due to hype.
But all in all, this game is pretty well-balanced. I mean, the gulf between S-tier and B-tier is still minuscule in comparison to Brawl and Melee's tier lists.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The Ivysaur subforum has had its fair share showing.

 

[Ogopogo]

Been using Mewtwo a lot, he's very fun. Hover can be used for edgeguarding or for a quick bair to get someone off a stage. This guy has some crazy range with his tilts. The only attack that I think might be pretty much useless is his dash attack.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Roy I can see as a middle of the pack character, somewhere near marth, maybe a little lower because of the lack of the tipper. Mewtwo is probably lower because of how floaty he is, and his lack of range of some of his moves, but he does have some hella disjointed hitboxes and some ridiculous range on other moves. Also the fact that he disappears during an airdodge and has a different sound effect while wavedashing is hype.

Yoshi is top tier though, he's just crazy. He has a bunch of ridiculously quick moves and parrying is crazy good.
Kirby is also pretty high, you can just kinda spam aerials and usually you win.
Olimar is middle to high tier, lower than Kirby but higher than Roy. He has some really easy combos and some quite powerful moves, but he still has some recovery issues and range issues, and his disjointed hitboxes don't do much to cover attacks coming from an upper diagonal.
ICs are middle or low tier, their grab game has been nerfed, and the rest of the cast has improved from brawl or melee.
Samus is meh. I don't know, she's a very interesting character but like ZSS I just really don't like her playstyle so I don't have much experience with her. But she has tons of tools and I'm sure some dedicated people will have lots of success with her.

 

[Plum]

I don't think Roy is HOLYCOWOMGNOSCOPEHEADSHOT or anything, but he's definitely very solid.
His dash dance game and general stage movement is phenomenal, his transition between ground and air and vice versa are excellent with his set of physics. His pivot game is pretty gahlike, as are his options like B-reversed DED. Like Marth though, dash dancing around isn't as strong as it was in Melee as more characters have tools to manage and/or shut it down. More people have swords and/or crazy range that he has to compete with, and his sweetspot system gives incentive to get down and dirty up close where he'll be more vulnerable.
Also if you let people get past certain %'s, like Marth he'll get to that point where he can no longer combo you into kill moves and he ends up flailing around with his sword until you eventually die from something like a Bair or DED. That said, he's VERY deadly at the right %'s, when he can basically convert almost anything into an Fsmash or Flare Blade.
Also, as much as I absolutely adore Roy's physics from an offensive standpoint, they are pretty abysmal when it comes to not getting combo'd by basically anything. His recovery, while improved, is still linear and dreadfully easy to edgeguard for any character with a semblance of an offstage game.

I think overall he's likely a middle of the cast type character. Very good place to be.
Not sure about any other new character to be frank. Roy was my very first main, from way back in 2003 when little me first got Melee, and although my competitive nature eventually shifted that focus into Sheik (aka I wanted a good character) he's still my favorite character to play. So he's been basically getting all of my initial focus in 3.0.

 

[andalsoandy]

looking back at my playstyle from 2.6b, I depended way too much on wario's crouch cancelled side b.

now i gotta go into smash rehab and rethink my strategies

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I completely agree with the changes made to wario, all of them are very reasonable imo. Also on the topic of his side b hitbox size...yeah its pretty big once it gets to the third stage, and you'd be gettin the phuck away from that if its coming for you lol. I'm pretty sure its the longest lasting part of it, can't remember if thats completely true off the top of my head, and I've been able to hit people behind me with it before.

 

[Jade_Rock55]

Can you really make a tier list for project m since it is balanced or at least it seems to be pretty close at least closer than the actual games.

 

[trash?]

hell, it's not like we don't try anyways


it's difficult to put a specific opinion on kirby. he's definitely not low-tier, but he seems like he can get outspaced hard, because barring a couple of tricks here and there he has few poking options when compared to, say, marth or MK

fun to do edgeguards with though

 

[Plum]

Every game with a diverse cast, no matter how closely balanced, will still have a tier list. It's important to understand that each game's tiers are relative. Relative to other Smash games, sure Project M has a smaller gap between the cast, but that doesn't mean the tiers aren't there.

 

[Jolteon]

Kirby is a hidden monster. :3

 

[GP&B]

I don't think there's anything you can change to Kirby to make him especially good without fundamentally altering an aspect of him that will likely make him dumb. And that's fine really, he feels fantastic.

 

[Scythe]

Is anyone else having a lot of trouble landing IC's d-throw nair chaingrab?

d-throw nair isn't a chaingrab, so maybe there's your problem.

 

[KayB]

d-throw nair isn't a chaingrab, so maybe there's your problem.

lmao I meant dair sorry.

 

[MLGF]

I personally think Roy is still worse then Marth and Ike, but meh he's decent.
But who are we to talk on a day 2 Metagame!?

He should be bottom tier so he's accurate to his game