Tier List Speculation

[Oro?!]

Oh my bad, I thought withdraw was medium and the splash attack on withdraw was made into light armor. Thanks cmart.

 

[Deleted member]

yes, absolutely, 100%.

I respectfully disagree.

 

[DMG]

Cool cmart, I was just about to ask whether weight affected how easy it was to break their armor, because I was pretty sure it was tougher to crack Bowser than Squirtle

Sanity: Yes I highly recommend Marth for Squirtle. It's just overall hard for Squirtle to deal with and hard for you to lose the advantage in the MU.

 

[Deleted member]

I respectfully disagree.

a move that's terrible for it's intended purpose (attacking an opponent below you from the air) in exchange for cheating a basic premise of the game (juggling).... what does this sound like? oh yeah, every other dysfunctional move in every smash game. yeah i'll take a real dair thanks.

 

[Nausicaa]

PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW​

full tier-list in order

S Tier
Lucas
Wario
Wolf

A Tier
Metaknight
Zero
Mario
Fox
Luigi
Peach

B+ Tier
Snake
Pit
Falco
Captain Falcon
Charizard

B Tier
Donkey Kong
Pikachu
Toon Link
Ivysaur
Sheik
Link
Marth
Bowser

B- Tier
Ike
Lucario
Ness
Diddy Kong
Jigglypuff
Sonic
Zelda
ROB
Mr. Game & Watch

C Tier
King Dedede
Squirtle
Ganondorf

Spoiler

S Tier
Lucas
The process stock-elimination is less guaranteed, though with a much less demanding base.
Meaning, there's no hard read tech-chase-style needed with the ease of combos on him, and it's not a free-FULL-recovery if he DOES get through and on the Stage somewhere spacie-style, but there's a much more dynamic process for option-elimination towards killing him with the same turn-around in advantage that spacies have when doing so.

Wario
Free kills every 90 seconds on top of a character that is BEST POSITIONED WHEN ATTACKING due to the actual safety and dynamics of defensive offense. Like really, any character that literally is at their best in regards to both safety and killing opponents when flying straight at the enemy, and has a free kill move, is like Jiggs on hard drugs and drunk. Might as well be Wigglytuff, or Chansey with infinite speed and critical-hits. Though his feet shrunk a little, and he can't actually fly.

Wolf
Stale-mate master, in the sense that if a mistake is made, it's a stock loss below 70% from both sides, so nobody will want to try making anything happen from nothing... good thing Wolf can MAKE things happen from nothing better than almost anyone. The more patience comes in these matches, which will be essential, the more he'll shine. It goes both ways, so he has his same advantage against him too.

A Tier (more polarizing and/or gimmicky)
Metaknight < trade hits with this guy, it's the best bet to not be out-... everything'd

Zero Suit Samus < never committing to maintain control from positioning
This is as decieving as it gets. DD into Pivot D-Smash and Up-B OOS with Grabs to follow them, Hail-Mary Dive-Kicks off-stage for edge-guards and combo-ending on a whim, and you'll accomplish more than most characters ever will, while feeling like you're not even getting much done. Oddly never afraid of ZSS, but oddly somehow she does amazingly well, a lot < common thing that will spread like a cuties.

Mario < staying where he's trying to lock you out of to make him commit
Locks-down everything, and goodies to boot. Issue? Stay where he hates you. Seriously, the one down-fall of this character is that he CANNOT keep people out of where he doesn't want them for ever. He can make it hard, and risky, and annoying, but it's still on stubby-arms to commit if you ever get there, even if he's controlling the pace and positioning of a match 99% of the way through. He's so good at it that he's almost S, but he's still got a sweet-spot against him.

Fox < taking risks for small rewards to start a stock elimination process
Everyone knows Fox. How to beat Fox? Small risks for small rewards. You have to take them, and most characters will struggle with these trades and risks due to lack of process-game to make as much of them as Fox does. It's still there though. Sheik can still Needle for some %, get a knock-down on a Hail-Mary Dash-Attack, and end it. Project: M has enough dynamics on every character to make this simply too breaking for Fox to be unprocessed enough to be the best.

Luigi < gaining small rewards for control while avoiding possible risks
Run for your life and camp. Delay the game and pick him off for chasing you if he leaves the opening with over-extensions. Big stages both hurt and help him, in that he can kill anyone off any hit easier than anyone else, but navigating well-spread platforms can be hazardous in a chasing-game. Non-committing games will be boring with a few exciting things during kills, otherwise, expect instant-kills and tension filled fast-paced camp-fests.

Peach < out-mobilizing and avoiding possible risks to make her commit
Big stages allow good room for dealing with her, but she still has the POW and the never-forget-any-stock life-spans of years. Aggressively passive play master, thriving off aggression while never really committing, perfect beast of the niche, and perfectly fitting being so good at a specific style. Will win lots, but will have her serious adaptations to do along the way.

B+ Tier (death-touches and fortresses) Basically still Top-Tier style
Snake < mini-Peach with less diversity but more ToD's and polarity both ways
Same as Peach, but lacks the POW while having the BANG. Has less light-reads that lead to stock-elimination, but has more stream-lined variations of offense to make up for it. Niche, and more direct with less diversity. Perfect spot again, though more polarizing in all circumstances.

Pit < mini-Mario with more stale-mate/lock-down flexibility, but less good polarity
There's less of a stream-lined sour-spot in terms of where he's trying to lock you out of, meaning there's more room to play for both parties, but less insurance from both as well. More flexibility in sour-spot abuse allows more of the cast to abuse this, but not excessively due to the complexity of it. He can lock-down in a way that forces committing from the opponent, so it's all in the play that makes a difference. Why he's so good, is that it applies to all, and so he won't be cheesed or forced in any way himself universally. Well balanced.

Falco < mini-Lucas with more polarity both ways, but less flexibility in lock-down/process
He has too many holes to cover to not be abused. There are so many dynamics in a well-spread cast full of well-spread options and styles each, for him to be able to lock them down and pick up on what he needs to in a single swoop. Choking people out with spacing and pokes until they break with a means of trying to pick him out of one of his holes while he doesn't let himself fall to the trap, is a lot harder than finding the holes in Falco's coverage of them, but man... he can sure choke people out...

Captain Falcon < mini-Metaknight with less lock-down, but more polarity both ways
Big stages, easy lead-ins with certainty of finishes on more of the cast than ever before, while not really being phased by the over-abundance of diversity since he'll still Falcon his Falcon and DD into Falcon like Falcon, regardless of Falcon, Falcon Falcon's, and Falcons Falcon Falcon... Falcon.

Charizard < mini-Zero Suit Samus with less diversity and more polarity both ways
Just don't get hit, that's his only issue. Pivot Jab/T-Tilts/Grabs, play a safe game while remaining a threat. Go for Hail-Mary's, rather than camp. Attack on whims while not getting caught out in pressure. Trade those Up-B OOS and fading F-Air into Jab/T-Tilt walls with incoming aerials more than moving around for Grabs or approaches even. Just hit the enemy and laugh at how easily stuff happens, while avoiding getting hit, because you in hit-stun should be the only time the enemy will ever feel safe from death-touches.

B Tier - Would STILL be in the Melee Top-Tier... Just with some splitting in diversity of match-up spreads for them
Donkey Kong
Just hit him in the face and spike him and you'll be fine. Otherwise, don't get Grabbed or your death is free. It's like Falcon, but you need to commit to more offensively to get certainty in the form of keeping him on the defensive. There's no safety at a distance, so the chore isn't lock-down in the form of non-committing outside of pressuring him, but rather in the form of maintaining pressure and avoiding the need to ever being in a non-committing position, because that's what he likes too.

Pikachu
Stale-mate in scary-zones, and just be in scary-places. Things will work out. Really well too. Pikachu doesn't have to do anything to force the enemy to do something, but neither does the opponent to make Pikachu do something, so what happens? Intense suspense, first one to crack under the pressure, loses. Pikachu never has to crack with his speed and safety in a non-committal position, so like Pit, it comes down to play, and being able to have this apply universally is what makes the dynamics give Pikachu an edge in Tier.

Toon Link
The reverse hit-box on F-Smash is my fave reverse hit-box in the game. That is all.

Ivysaur
Like Goku said to Cell, "Back Gohan up into a corner until he has nowhere to go but right through you" so just go right through her and you'll be fine. She's scary, but being on an actual 'defensive' is where she falls apart. Make that happen, and all will be well. All Ivysaur's game will turn to covering holes more than pressuring with holes, akin to Falco-pressure nature, because of her actual sour-spot on her(its/his) face, just like Falco with different dynamics.

Sheik
The dynamics for everything, tool overlap and soon. Everyone knows Sheik. She's good, she's hawt and fine. Stale-mate champ returns, just a little more spunky flare is required in place of the little less dominatrix glory.

Link
Solid backbone for the niche he fits into. No glaring flaw, while his actual overall game-plan is his glaring strength. We know what Link does, and will try to do, but how will he do it? That's where Link will get his wins. He can do a lot, and the dynamics of this are too complex to directly pin-point a scary-zone that hurts him, from pressure to offense to space on the stage to bother controlling, since he won't really break under any particular thing, but may find some way to break you if you're not careful.

Marth
Big stages hurt a bit, sure, as everyone knows. He's still Marth though. Always scary, always tiara-styling, always DD Grabbing, Free-Kill Spiking, and TIPPER F-SMASH FROM NOWHERE(ING) against a cast of people that like to not be able to punish F-Smash as easily as spacies/Sheik, or have more linear play (less DD's that > his own) for things like Counter to come into play more. He's fine, perfectly fine. Always Marthing.

Bowser
There's always something someone can do against him. Up-B doesn't work against feet spaced in your face? N-Air/F-Air back, or WL into F-Tilt/U-Tilt, or something. Can't handle Pressure? Up-B, Side-B to counter something, Down-B WL to safety/counter, D-Smash on a whim even. Jab? Firebreath? For a character that can be countered with so many linear stream-lined concepts, he has everything needed to counter all of it, so it becomes a very cheesy game. Do turtles eat cheese? Bowser must have mutated from it. Don't get Up-B'd, space crap on his face, and be patience. The smell of cheese will go away.

B- Tier = The High Tier of PM, like... bottom of Melee Top Tier... or soething... like Falcon-Tier or something... like ICs-land...
Ike
Pressure him, don't let him move around freely. He's too good when he's moving. Luckily he can be stopped from moving, by hitting him first. N-Air and Garb Too stronk.

Lucario
Trade, and don't crack under abundant resets when not in full raw-neutral control. In think this is like a Jiggs vs Marth match-up with every character in the game. Marth will control 90% of a match, and can still lose hardcore. Lucario can be controlled, but can easily maintain control if he ever gets a hit. The loop is stronk in this one.

Ness
Make the little boy commit. Force him to attempt a Grab, or try an aerial, or back away with a PKF. Just get him to do something and don't get caught by it. If you're slow and immobile, good luck, if you have any general speed and diversity with it, then just run around him. Otherwise he will kill you, because he totally can. Even a bit of % and a bad position, and he'll run you over if you get hit, so the first one counts the most. His punish and few key tools in neutral are stronk.

Diddy Kong
Offense. Don't let him DD, don't let him set anything up. Passively aggressive (DD back at him to make him scared) or aggressively passive (empty SH near him and approach with shield to scare him). Attack him if he does anything, you'll win the trades. Otherwise, be prepared to be slowly chipped out of % and position until you actually die to what before was barely meh. His control is stronk once it's going, like loops.

Jigglypuff
Still a monster in cute-form. Everyone knows Jiggs. Big Stages, diversity in cast, including characters that hit harder with more speed and range. Makes it tough, a lot tougher, but it's totally manageable. She totally still has Rest and B-Air and speed and mobility to make them work like beasts.

Sonic
Speed makes him work in any setting or match-up, so he's good to go with Dash-Stuff alone. This gives him the loops and control like others, but with a lack of diversity in them, making it polarizing. Just as functional in raw-neutral, and just as functional as a character, but it's stream-lined enough that there will be something that crushes it, and while it may crush some things more than others, in a well-spread game, lack of universal play in a niche of process and reset control leads to breaking things and being broken, even slightly. Don't be broken by Sonic, and things should be fine. Sonic can break things deceivingly well though.

Zelda
Don't get touched, and things should be fine. Like... screw attacking her altogether. Almost got a combo going? Watch for N-Air/Death-Kick/the B button. Trying to bait something out? Watch for nothing as she lands and DD Grabs out of nowhere. Just... That shouldn't be a problem, since she's so slow... right? RIGHT?!?! You don't have to go to her if you don't want to... RIGHT?!?! You don't have to hit her, and you can still win, RIGHT?!?! RIGHT!?!?

ROB
Captain do-one-thing-and-win. Seriously, Aerial/Tilt > Laser. Gyro > Grab > Laser. Anything > Laser. Set yourself in a weird position and attack the opponent > Laser. If ROB has ANY pattern, EVER, in Neutral, find it and punish it. He's linear, from movements in neutral to finishing combos, so challenge him in the air if you think he'll Side-B, you'll probably hit him before the move comes out. Challenge him if he's far away, since he's even more linear if you catch him before he changes position/gets in the air. Just challenge him, and don't get hit for simply being too slow to challenge him. You'll see him coming so far away that you shouldn't get hit anyway... really. He still hits hard though...

Mr. Game & Watch
Up-B > FF B-Air > Up-B > FF Bacon > Up-B > U-Air > Bacon > Jump N-Air
^ Stuff like that.
Funnest vortex game ever, that is all.

C Tier
King Dedede
Still a monster, and deceiving, and scary, but like... he's all just a scary monster. Not a REAL Monster, really.

Squirtle
Aqua-Jet all day-can't touch this naa na nana-can't touch this
Side-B getaway-can't touch this naa na nana-can't touch this
WD Bubble face-can't touch this naa na nana-can't touch this

Ganondorf
He's still good old Ganon, just ACTUALLY good now. He still has the good old Ganon syndrome though.
It's different with Ganon than almost any other character (Zelda/G&W/a couple others fall into this category too), it's just a little LESS of an issue than ever before.
In Smash, Ganon doesn't hit you, you get hit by Ganon.
Now... at least we can say A LITTLE BIT, "in Soviet Russia In Project: M, Ganon hits you.

PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW EPWEWEPAPEPAKPW​

​

a move that's terrible for it's intended purpose (attacking an opponent below you from the air) in exchange for cheating a basic premise of the game (juggling).... what does this sound like? oh yeah, every other dysfunctional move in every smash game. yeah i'll take a real dair thanks.

You must hate ZSS XD

 

[Oro?!]

Why? Her dive kick loses to negatively disjointed moves.

 

[Tlock]

Tier list

​

​

Any list with Fox not listed as the best character I can't take seriously. Fox 7th? I just can't.​

 

[Nausicaa]

If someone tries beating my dive-kick with something while their recovering, I'll welcome it. lol
Fox is a scrub that should GO HOME TO MELEE YOU SILLY FOX CREATURE YOU!!!
jkz
Really though, after enough 'buffs' elsewhere, he's gotta break someday.

 

[DMG]

That's a cool list ya got there. I would agree that eventually people will surpass Fox, but you don't have very convincing characters over him atm. Wolf and ZSS don't have **** on Fox

Lucas as the best character is the biggest theory monster mash crafting, In a glorified bubble, sure he's got pressure and tricks up close, but how he gets there is still a tricky area to navigate. I don't think we're close to understanding exactly how good he is on shield/on hit, and what the defender can do in those situations as well. Until then, him at #1 is a nod to something yearssssss away from now

 

[SpiderMad]

Is that list taking into account future prospects with the changes of 3.0, or what 2.6b would have been if left unchanged to develop for years?

 

[Oro?!]

If someone tries beating my dive-kick with something while their recovering, I'll welcome it. lol
Fox is a scrub that should GO HOME TO MELEE YOU SILLY FOX CREATURE YOU!!!
jkz
Really though, after enough 'buffs' elsewhere, he's gotta break someday.

Any move with an active hitbox literally beats it. Try to dive kick Bowser? Eat some shell homie.

 

[Nausicaa]

That's a cool list ya got there. I would agree that eventually people will surpass Fox, but you don't have very convincing characters over him atm. Wolf and ZSS don't have **** on Fox

Lucas as the best character is the biggest theory monster mash crafting, In a glorified bubble, sure he's got pressure and tricks up close, but how he gets there is still a tricky area to navigate. I don't think we're close to understanding exactly how good he is on shield/on hit, and what the defender can do in those situations as well. Until then, him at #1 is a nod to something yearssssss away from now

Curiously then, who would you consider convincing, if anyone?

It's handy how an accurate Tier-List implies, and speculation also implies, to aim 'years' from now anyway. So good, glad I'm in line with that, in a way.
I'm more afraid of ZSS and Wolf than Fox in PM, and consider them as good, and could easily be better or worse. Better, is my best estimate as of now. That's all this means.
If someone lives beyond 80% against my Wolf, I can pinpoint the mistake I made. If I get caught out of position as ZSS, I can pinpoint the mistake I made. Until this clears up, I don't like the thought of these characters. lol
Lucas has this syndrome on steroids. It's really easy to pinpoint everything about it too, it's not as hard to see as people make it out to be.
Like really, if I can predict Wolf being Top 5 in Month 1 2.1, and literally then and there spew out the intricacies of his dynamics of play, the things that have only cropped into general-play in late-2.6b, and some that hasn't even been touched on in the current meta-game yet, and be literally 100% accurate down to the last comment and mannerism in the development of it, Lucas can't be that much further off from what I've been seeing. lol

what 2.6b would have been if left unchanged to develop for years?

That one. I don't do future-stuff until I get my hands on it and see enough of it elsewhere. There's such a lack of flushed-out meta-game at every level of 2.6b that nothing can be determined to any certainty, let alone a game where the common Roy tampering isn't getting free kills at 60% with F-Air into Side-B things, or whatever he might be capable of that pokes itself into moments of Streams but never surfaces again and probably won't until people practice/play themselves into fluency months after release, like all other patch-trends of development.
Game is hard.

Any move with an active hitbox literally beats it. Try to dive kick Bowser? Eat some shell homie.

You might want to try doing that against Bowser more. If troubles are coming, do it earlier before the Up-B or even after. Haven't had any issues with it yet, like, at all, against anyone.
Just go for it, 2 miles off-stage even. It's easy and free and the risk to reward ratio is through the roof on her side.

 

[Oro?!]

If he is in his upB, then you aren't hitting him. That's the only point I was trying to make. Going offstage where you have a double jump and a tether, and they just have upB, of course you are at an advantage lol.

 

[Nausicaa]

I didn't take any notes to have a clear memory of it, but I don't remember ever being beaten by the Up-B even when it's in the peak of its activity. Is it directly below her, or beside her, that it loses badly?
I even remember hitting DK directly out of his Up-B, from the Side more than above, but maybe he has wonky hit-box shifting and I got lucky? haha

 

[DMG]

I wouldn't stick with that logic though. "I got Wolf right, so I'm right about Lucas". I could point you out being wrong (or very mislead) when it came to Wario. Neither one dictates whether you are correct about Lucas or not.

Lucas and a few other characters have interesting offensive tools and choices that haven't been fleshed out yet. When we talk about them however, I think we (collectively as a community) tend to vision a point where their side is fleshed out more thoroughly and the defensive side isn't as well examined. Even for current characters, take Ivy for example. The amount of CC, ASDI, and SDI you can apply to many of her moves is staggering, and people haven't thoroughly explored this against her. People *hate* her with a passion, but I can't think of many people who have all honestly tried and explored:

1. SDIing out of Nair
2. CCing Nair on the ground so that you don't get scooped up (sometimes you can eat the first hit and shield still, might not apply to the original first Nair hit though)
3. CC Bair first hit, to shield the second
4. ASDI/SDI away as Razor Leaf hits you, to avoid any cheesy follow ups. Smaller note: if shielding Razor Leaf, dropping shield in the middle of it to then get hit by it, so that you can SDI/drift away from their option like "Oh he shielded the Leaf so I grab, WTF he's drifting away! Crap"

Stuff like this can help make her less cheesy lame sauce, and yet it's not used against her on nearly the same scale. I think the same could very well apply to some of what Lucas does and I'm not nearly as excited over him when both sides look like they would need awhile to really look crisp. Why do all of that when you can Usmash some fool with Fox lol

 

[SpiderMad]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53t9fDzdCyw
I wonder if Shield DI/SDI is the same as Brawl's/P:M, in correlation though with Shield pushback itself being bigger. If Shield pushback becomes less/Melee (which I'm still not sure if I'd like dislike) or Fox's Up-smash itself gets nerfed I definitely see that as the biggest factor in Fox's dominance. I think now more than ever is to learn to use Shield SDI with the pushback making it safe every time otherwise.

 

[Nausicaa]

For sure. There's room to play with everything, but I don't think anyone posting a Tier-List should be posting a Tier-List without looking thoroughly into it. If anything, most people not only don't look into things, but don't really know what to look for, whether it's simply a lack of experience in things like it, or development of their own play with the game, or a lack of knowledge and insight into it, or whatever.
Hence most Tier-Talk is pretty funny, and at best, discussion about it is helpful for everyone in a much more significant way than the actual material that comes from it, rather, it sparks people to think a little differently, or at least give them incentive to.
I'll always stand by 2.1 Wario being a solid character, though futile since it's ancient history to never been developed. Someone is naive in the case, sure, but history has been on my side with every Smash-related educated prediction in my life to date. lol
Maybe he wasn't Wolf-style 'broke', but 2.5/2.6 were able to 'break' him with the given changes for a reason.
I'm scared of Luigi buffs more than anything. I'm probably the only person in the entire Smash-community that things he's 'better than decent' let alone actually 'good' lol

Fox U-Smash is too iconic now. I bet the PMBR couldn't actually change it, because through some space-time paradox, it would return to the games even when erased from the code entirely!

 

[I Dair You]

Characters in tiers are unordered. (Listed alphabetically)

Tier 1
Fox
Ivysaur
Lucas
Metaknight
Sheik
Wario
Wolf

Tier 2
Bowser
Falco
Jigglypuff
Mario
Peach
Pit
Zelda

Tier 3
Captain Falcon
Charizard
Lucario
Marth
Ness
Snake
Zero Suit Samus

Tier 4
Donkey Kong
Ganondorf
Ike
Link
Luigi
Mr. Game & Watch
Pikachu

Tier 5
Diddy Kong
King Dedede
ROB
Sonic
Squirtle
Toon Link

 

[Tlock]

Decent tier list, especially with the characters in the tiers not individually ranked. I would suggest a few changes. Falco should be in tier 1. Marth should be in tier 2. Puff should be in at least 3. ROB and Ganondorf should switch tiers. Other than that I think it is fairly decent from a quick glance.

 

[hand]

Yes, Jiggz got some really disgusting match ups in pm.
Hence, it will be pretty much impossible for her to shine like she did in Melee.
Lowest tier imo

 

[MrBigstuff]

What exactly are her "disgusting" matchups?

 

[hand]

Ivysaur, Zelda, Bowser, ROB, GnW, Mario, Lucas, Snake

 

[Nguz95]

Don't forget Pit! He makes Jigglypuff's life a nightmare. MK probably hurts her pretty bad too.

 

[Raccoon Chuck]

Just wait until Roy's "Jiggs' Guillotine" Up Special returns......
....WITH MORE RANGE!!!!! I don't know what to think about jigg's, she's an overated character in Melee IMO, and her gimmicks are wearing. I can see her main problem being that despite being "Oh So Comfortably" ported from Melee, this comes with the curse of having a gigantic web of new characters and buffs unknown in her main hub of development.

 

[metroid1117]

Can someone explain to me why Sonic is considered so low? I'm having problems seeing how a character that's fast enough to theoretically win every interaction in neutral isn't mid-tier at the very least. I know he has problems in terms of priority and profiting off of hits, but IMHO as long as you can't get hit, you're winning. I shudder to imagine what it would be like to play someone who had quick reflexes and just spammed DThrow for the tech chases (I'd imagine it'd be something like Hax's tech chases, only more inescapable albeit less profit from guessing properly).

 

[Deleted member]

Can someone explain to me why Sonic is considered so low?

because people are bad. accept it.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

I have the same question as Metroid. Sonic still seems pretty good from what I've played and seen. Also, are there any very good Diddy's and any good results from Diddy?

 

[Nausicaa]

Sonic
Speed makes him work in any setting or match-up, so he's good to go with Dash-Stuff alone. This gives him the loops and control like others, but with a lack of diversity in them, making it polarizing. Just as functional in raw-neutral, and just as functional as a character, but it's stream-lined enough that there will be something that crushes it, and while it may crush some things more than others, in a well-spread game, lack of universal play in a niche of process and reset control leads to breaking things and being broken, even slightly. Don't be broken by Sonic, and things should be fine. Sonic can break things deceivingly well though.

That, basically.
He's good, but stream-lined in the way he does what he does. That alone breeds the fact that things will be more polarizing, and I would consider someone with extremes 'lower' on a tier-list than someone with a balanced spread. He's still a beast.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I'm not entirely sure you said anything there other than sonic being fast, Bamsicaa

 

[Juushichi]

Ivysaur, Zelda, Bowser, ROB, GnW, Mario, Lucas, Snake

I think she can win all of those MUs except for current Ivy. In terms of difficulty:
--- Ivysaur
-- Bowser, Lucas(?)
- Mario, Game and Watch, Zelda

Actually, I think Snake is probably even. o_O

 

[Nausicaa]

Sonic is good and in the middle of the pack, but due to the way he does what Pika/Diddy/etc do (process-stock-elimination with lots or resets and control from raw-neutral), he'll be more polarizing both in advantages and not, and being less universal = less high on a statistical list.

 

[DMG]

Snake vs Jiggs is freaking lame. One side crouches and spams upb/camps, the other floats around

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

I have a suggestion for Ganondorf, since everyone seems to consider him pretty bad, why not take out his dumb down-throw chain-grab and give him improvements in other areas? People say Fox's Usmash is brain-dead but I honestly think Ganondorf's chain-grab is even more brain-dead

 

[Nausicaa]

Or even better...
Make Grounded Side-B go into his actual Grab, rather than a special Side-B coke-slam Grab, so he can D-Throw MORE!!!

 

[KayB]

What's Brawl's pivot desynch?

 

[Burnsy]

Causing the climbers to desync when they pivot? A really common pivot desync is fsmash. You input a pivot fsmash, and one climber fsmashes while the other dash attacks. Now they are desync'd.

 

[KayB]

I haven't really incorporated too much pivot applications in my play, so is pivot fsmash simply pivot and then input fsmash?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Jigglypuff gets a little more bad--

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN2hoBXmnig

 

[Nguz95]

Jigglypuff gets a little more bad--

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN2hoBXmnig

Can't Ike's up b do this too? I've seen it KO Zelda at 30 on Dracula's Castle.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Jigglypuff gets a little more bad--

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN2hoBXmnig

It's a check for her footstool to Rest. I didn't forget about that.