Tier List Speculation

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Also Squirtle withdraw beats Razor Leaf

this alone makes squirtle top tier

actually though, squirtle isn't bottom five. I know it's a topic that's been beaten to death, but he has simply too many tools in a multitude of situations. He's not the best, and he's certainly not easy to use, but he's not bad.

 

[Diddy Kong]

The Mewtwo boards already look like this... Half of the posts there are suggestions on how to improve the character

Thanks to my thread even.

 

[DMG]

Squirtle's Side B is pretty punishable on shield if you have a decent OOS game that can reach behind you. Mario can Upb/Bair it, Ganon can maybe Bair it, DK can Upb it OOS, etc

 

[Deleted member]

Oh my god, there are people who seriously think that MK's Dair should be completely scrapped and replaced with a new move? I just...what?

No.
No, no, no, no, no. Screw you.

 

[MLGF]

MK's dair is great. It's situational when it comes to offense, but also versatile in terms of movement and references past Kirby games, which is more then what his old Dair did.
It's better then him getting his Gimp happy dair from before, this is actually fun to use.

 

[KayB]

Argument for those who think current Dair should be scrapped:

It's a silly move that feels very janky, and with the history of other characters, everyone else tends to go a different direction than where MK's Dair is design wise. If you use it offstage you're basically dead, which would be cool if it guaranteed that the person dies BUT IT DOESN'T! Onstage, it's a cheesy approaching/getting down tool that usually forces the other person to kind of sit there and not doing anything because "Captain *******" might fly at you OR straight down OR away in the other direction OR he may just keep jumping there or naturally fall.

One move is creating an ambiguous landing game for no reason, instead of being IDK an actual aerial? Almost every character from Brawl with a Dair that plummets you, had it changed. Sonic kept his but they added useful properties to it and he can land it out of combos offstage for fun times. Wario got a new Dair, but his works much smoother and is much easier to balance. Not to mention you can actually try it offstage and not die for landing it. TL and Sheik got reverted to Melee, which is good, but you could apply your argument to those cases as well. Why not try to tweak them in their Brawl state? The answer was more than just "bcz Melee". Those kind of Dairs aren't popular and are very hard to make satisfying for both ends. How would you balance Kirby Stone or Bowser Bomb, if you turned them into Multi hit moves that you can also angle (and in Stone's case, couldn't cancel out of)? Same thing with Ganon and Falcon. These characters have alternative properties that make sense (even if Falcon Kick from the air is pretty crappy overall), and if we were to start tweaking them it would probably be easier to balance than judging what in the hell you do with MK's Dair as is. On top of it all, MK is using his Dair slot for this move. He could be having something more like a regular aerial, instead filled with this. If you replaced all of those character's Dairs with their respective Down B from the air, you'd have an outrage and it would feel silly wouldn't it? Imagine Captain Falcon doing a multi hit foot dive instead of his stomp, it's an awful thought.

For extending combos, you could come up with something else. You could use a Meteor, a Mario-like Dair, maybe even something like Snake?

I mean, if you really want you can try to balance and fiddle with his current Dair, but it would be so much easier (and probably really satisfying) to take it a different direction and find something cool. You could try the Brawl Dair with tweaks, a multi hit Sword Slash Dair kind of like what Snake does but possibly not sending them down, a whirling spin like Mario or Squirtle, something like ZSS's Dair kick, etc. There has got to be a more satisfying alternative than Hasbro's "My Little Kamikaze Plane".

Argument for those who want to keep current Dair:

Screw you.

 

[Deleted member]

This is a cool, iconic move that I am positive the PMBR can tweak to work into his moveset better. The idea that they should just completely scrap a move that has only been present in one release is stupid, knee-jerk BS.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

Argument for those who think current Bair should be scrapped:


Argument for those who want to keep current Bair:

i think you mean dair

i like the move bc its canon and its great (for a noob like me) but when DMG and umbreon put up those arguments, its actually really convincing in regards to it being a dumb move

i've actually never thought of that, where you dair to get out of combo strings

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Squirtle's Side B is pretty punishable on shield if you have a decent OOS game that can reach behind you. Mario can Upb/Bair it, Ganon can maybe Bair it, DK can Upb it OOS, etc

Well I'm working with Link and he either gets out of range too quick for my up-B OOS or just eats it and moves on as I recall anyways

I think Ganon is too slow to do a Bair, but I haven't tried any of the others you listed

 

[KayB]

This is a cool, iconic move that I am positive the PMBR can tweak to work into his moveset better. The idea that they should just completely scrap a move that has only been present in one release is stupid, knee-jerk BS.

How exactly would you improve it then?

 

[Oro?!]

DDD can trade bair with any squirtle aerial after the initial withdraw shield hit. If DDD with that slow jump can punish it, I bet a lot of people can. Also, a lot of the characters that CAN'T punish it from shield, can likely beat it with movement and select move/grab choices (see Falcon/ZSS).

 

[MLGF]

Ignore this post, I tried an attempt at humor but I apparently blow at quoting citations.
FML

Anyways, I like MK the way he is and while I see problems with D-Air, B-Air is fine. It's a nice tool.

 

[SpiderMad]

this alone makes squirtle top tier

actually though, squirtle isn't bottom five. I know it's a topic that's been beaten to death, but he has simply too many tools in a multitude of situations. He's not the best, and he's certainly not easy to use, but he's not bad.

You don't have to be bad to be bottom fiveeeeeee

 

[Oro?!]

You don't have to be bad to be bottom fiveeeeeee

Ganon says otherwise

 

[MLGF]

Ganon says otherwise

Ganon's not bad.
It's just that he's just a slightly buffed up Melee Dorf while everyone else is... a lot more.
*sigh*, I remember in 2.1 when everyone said Ganondorf trounced Falcon...

 

[Spiffykins]

How exactly would you improve it then?

When I first heard he was going to have a divekick type down air, I assumed it would work similar to ZSS' dair, bouncing him off his opponent and sending at some trajectory or another. Pretty sure it wasn't until months later that I saw it in action and I was a bit let down.

 

[Paradoxium]

How exactly would you improve it then?

Why is it a bad move? It seems fine to me

 

[SpiderMad]

Ganon says otherwise

Arty just needs to carry a gray bag and distract people with it

When I first heard he was going to have a divekick type down air, I assumed it would work similar to ZSS' dair, bouncing him off his opponent and sending at some trajectory or another. Pretty sure it wasn't until months later that I saw it in action and I was a bit let down.

Is that what they changed it to? That sounds pretty awesome, like he'll do Dair DJ/Up-air Dair Up-air stuff then?

 

[Spiffykins]

Arty just needs to carry a gray bag and distract people with it

Is that what they changed it to? That sounds pretty awesome, like he'll do Dair DJ/Up-air Dair Up-air stuff then?

I didn't say they changed it to that, I was just working off limited knowledge, this was before MK was released. I have no idea what's up with 3.0 dair, but I wouldn't be disappointed if that was the direction they went.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

DDD can trade bair with any squirtle aerial after the initial withdraw shield hit. If DDD with that slow jump can punish it, I bet a lot of people can. Also, a lot of the characters that CAN'T punish it from shield, can likely beat it with movement and select move/grab choices (see Falcon/ZSS).

The damn side-B goes through everything, no trades, how do you stop that?

Unless I have a corrupted setup or something because it ate Ganon's side-smash

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

At low percents squirtle's withdraw is basically invincible, it eats through everything, but as squirtle gets to a higher percent, the armor gets weaker

 

[Zwarm]

Also Squirtle is very low to the ground during Withdraw, and Ganon is using his tall man elbow to f-smash, he probably just goes right under it.

 

[Nguz95]

Also Squirtle is very low to the ground during Withdraw, and Ganon is using his tall man elbow to f-smash, he probably just goes right under it.

Maybe. ******* are kind of hard to hit I guess.

 

[Oro?!]

Armor is based on % and knockback. For instance, Bowser's crawl armor is light armor, but at 0% he doesn't flinch from a bob-omb or stitch face. At higher percents, let's say around 100, Bowser's heavy armor on sideB will not go through a sheik ftilt. The categorization of armor, paired with the type of move you are using determines what goes through armor. It will likely be a while before a full chart would ever be fleshed out of what moves beat what armor types at what percentages.

You pick up small things from playing against armor frequently, however. An interesting thing would be MK nair (strong hit only) going through squirtle withdraw at any % above 0. I don't know the stats off the top of my head, but a move like that wouldn't normally beat armor that early, so there are always exceptions. Another interesting exception would be Ness dash attack going through Bowser's crouch armor even at 0% when a bob omb and stitch cannot.

Squirtle's withdraw is considered medium armor, while the rest of his shell attacks have light armor. The armor types are standardized across the cast, so if you know what percent knee breaks medium armor, then there is your long sought after answer.

Also if withdraw is not trading then you are likely whiffing. Withdraw does not have a huge disjointed hitbox. When squirtle armors through an attack I would consider that a trade, since armor is performing it's function.

 

[KayB]

Why would you ever try to challenge withdraw? Shield it > Punish with Oos. Doesn't hit you > Has a bit of cooldown so he can't act of it fast enough. You can even punish him if you're quick enough. Aqua Jet > Punishable except when he lands on a platform, but he won't be hitting you nor will he be in a very advantageous position most of the time, so you don't really need to worry about it. That's literally all he can do out of withdraw.

 

[Oro?!]

There are moves that beat it straight up, even at low percents, and you can outspace it depending on your character. Falcon can stomp it, Marth can do anything to it, MK can nair it, ZSS can run for her life etc.

 

[DMG]

^^^

I play Marth so I lol when I see Squirtle. You will NOT Side B Marth in your lifetime and get away with it

 

[Zwarm]

I sure as hell still try. And that's why I lose to Marth.

 

[DMG]

Squirtel Squirt!

 

[metroid1117]

There are moves that beat it straight up, even at low percents, and you can outspace it depending on your character. Falcon can stomp it, Marth can do anything to it, MK can nair it, ZSS can run for her life etc.

Speaking of moves that go through it, Ike's UTilt wrecks it particularly hard because Squirtle can't even jump over it when timed properly.

 

[DMG]

New Squirtle Meta: Bubble Beam from the air and try to be annoying as possible

 

[Burnsy]

Speaking of moves that go through it, Ike's UTilt wrecks it particularly hard because Squirtle can't even jump over it when timed properly.

What did you think of my Squirtle when we played at Big House? I think Squirtle v Ike is interesting, because although Ike does outrange him and has many powerful moves, it seems that Squirtle also has pretty good ways of out speeding/maneuvering Ike's decisions.

 

[metroid1117]

What did you think of my Squirtle when we played at Big House? I think Squirtle v Ike is interesting, because although Ike does outrange him and has many powerful moves, it seems that Squirtle also has pretty good ways of out speeding/maneuvering Ike's decisions.

Yeah, I was impressed by your Squirtle and learned a lot more about what he can do. I'm still not entirely sold on Squirtle as a character being out of the bottom 5 though; it's not that he lacks tools, but IMHO his tools just aren't as good as other characters' tools =/.

 

[Deleted member]

Oh my god, there are people who seriously think that MK's Dair should be completely scrapped and replaced with a new move? I just...what?

No.
No, no, no, no, no. Screw you.

yes, absolutely, 100%.

 

[CORY]

New Squirtle Meta: Bubble Beam from the air and try to be annoying as possible

new meta? more like only meta

 

[Phan7om]

For MK's dair, the only thing I could see the PMBR doing with it is making it so that you can choose to fastfall it, like Sheik's dair, but I like it how it is.

Also for Kirby, bring back his Melee Aerial Side-B. I feel you could tweak it in some way so that it doesn't have that killer ending lag, and that It hits a couple of times, like sweetspot on entire first swing, and rapidly decays after that... but if you haven't by now, it probably wont happen by 3.0 . Just a suggestion.

 

[Burnsy]

For MK's dair, the only thing I could see the PMBR doing with it is making it so that you can choose to fastfall it, like Sheik's dair, but I like it how it is.

Also for Kirby, bring back his Melee Aerial Side-B. I feel you could tweak it in some way so that it doesn't have that killer ending lag, and that It hits a couple of times, like sweetspot on entire first swing, and rapidly decays after that... but if you haven't by now, it probably wont happen by 3.0 . Just a suggestion.

Not sure if you've noticed in any 3.0 steams, but kirby's aerial hammer autocancels throughout the full move and does a whopping 17%. I think it looks like a pretty bitchin move.

It also does 20% grounded (wow), but obviously that version is much laggier.

 

[Phan7om]

Not sure if you've noticed in any 3.0 steams, but kirby's aerial hammer autocancels throughout the full move and does a whopping 17%. I think it looks like a pretty *****in move.

Oh! Must have missed it. Thats good to know. Thanks for helping a scrub out.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

At low percents squirtle's withdraw is basically invincible, it eats through everything, but as squirtle gets to a higher percent, the armor gets weaker

Good to know, thanks, but I think that's ridiculous considering how mobile the move is

Also Squirtle is very low to the ground during Withdraw, and Ganon is using his tall man elbow to f-smash, he probably just goes right under it.

I angled it down...

Armor is based on % and knockback. For instance, Bowser's crawl armor is light armor, but at 0% he doesn't flinch from a bob-omb or stitch face. At higher percents, let's say around 100, Bowser's heavy armor on sideB will not go through a sheik ftilt. The categorization of armor, paired with the type of move you are using determines what goes through armor. It will likely be a while before a full chart would ever be fleshed out of what moves beat what armor types at what percentages.

You pick up small things from playing against armor frequently, however. An interesting thing would be MK nair (strong hit only) going through squirtle withdraw at any % above 0. I don't know the stats off the top of my head, but a move like that wouldn't normally beat armor that early, so there are always exceptions. Another interesting exception would be Ness dash attack going through Bowser's crouch armor even at 0% when a bob omb and stitch cannot.

Squirtle's withdraw is considered medium armor, while the rest of his shell attacks have light armor. The armor types are standardized across the cast, so if you know what percent knee breaks medium armor, then there is your long sought after answer.

Also if withdraw is not trading then you are likely whiffing. Withdraw does not have a huge disjointed hitbox. When squirtle armors through an attack I would consider that a trade, since armor is performing it's function.

Yea I don't play against armor characters much, and it can't be whiffing when you side-smash the damn turtle in the face and he just proceeds to take the attack and blast right through you

Shielding it doesn't help since there's none of the characters I play have a move OOS shield that is quick enough, even if one hit Squirtle wouldn't probably go right through it

^^^

I play Marth so I lol when I see Squirtle. You will NOT Side B Marth in your lifetime and get away with it

Looks like I need to pick up Marth lol

 

[cmart]

Armor is based on % and knockback. For instance, Bowser's crawl armor is light armor, but at 0% he doesn't flinch from a bob-omb or stitch face. At higher percents, let's say around 100, Bowser's heavy armor on sideB will not go through a sheik ftilt. The categorization of armor, paired with the type of move you are using determines what goes through armor. It will likely be a while before a full chart would ever be fleshed out of what moves beat what armor types at what percentages.

You pick up small things from playing against armor frequently, however. An interesting thing would be MK nair (strong hit only) going through squirtle withdraw at any % above 0. I don't know the stats off the top of my head, but a move like that wouldn't normally beat armor that early, so there are always exceptions. Another interesting exception would be Ness dash attack going through Bowser's crouch armor even at 0% when a bob omb and stitch cannot.

Squirtle's withdraw is considered medium armor, while the rest of his shell attacks have light armor. The armor types are standardized across the cast, so if you know what percent knee breaks medium armor, then there is your long sought after answer.

Also if withdraw is not trading then you are likely whiffing. Withdraw does not have a huge disjointed hitbox. When squirtle armors through an attack I would consider that a trade, since armor is performing it's function.

Squirtle's withdraw armor is light armor actually. He gets medium armor when he flashes blue (off the top of my head he has medium armor during nair). Also, keep in mind that a character's weight affects how much knockback they take... which affects when their armor will break.