Tier List Speculation

[GeZ]

I'd say very good, and deserving of nerfs, but only because of some very polarizing tools. Bair is a good portion of the problem as it does half of Ivy's matchups for her, and UpB kills way too early.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Ivysaur is fine enough, 2.5 sonic was way worse. Honestly you could say the same things about fox, that usmash kills way too early and that uthrow to uair is too easy and #autocombo. But fox won't get changed anytime soon and neither should Ivy.

 

[Ogopogo]

God jesus. Okay. It's nothing personal, I just don't like bad writing. It's a pet peeve. It flips my wig. So i'll just steer clear of your posts.

Notice the "Location: Germany" part.

Analysis: English might not be his first language.

This isn't very difficult to figure out.

 

[GeZ]

Ivysaur is fine enough, 2.5 sonic was way worse. Honestly you could say the same things about fox, that usmash kills way too early and that uthrow to uair is too easy and #autocombo. But fox won't get changed anytime soon and neither should Ivy.

Ivysaur changes matchups a bit too much though. Like the tether being nigh impossible to edge guard. Or stun spore controlling space too well. She's got parts of her game that do more than they should, or might have been intended to do.

Notice the "Location: Germany" part.

Analysis: English might not be his first language.


This isn't very difficult to figure out.

I saw that, but since he didn't bring it up I assumed it wasn't something he had trouble with, along with his positions on certain words coming from opinion rather than inability. He didn't say "I have bad english" he said "I use irony when I mean hyberbole" and while they're both representative of the same thing, they have different implications.

 

[Vashimus]

M2K also said Falco was broken, Bowser was top tier, and that Sheik wasn't that good, none of which are actually the case. People like Strong Bad, Reflex, Hylian, Oro etc are people whose opinions generally hold more weight in my eyes than M2K's.

While Ivysaur is top 5, I don't agree with her being nerfed, and don't see how she makes the metagame "toxic". Defensive characters are very good to have in Project M, as it offers diversity in playstyle as well as forcing players to focus on their spacing or improve upon it for that matchup (god forbid). It's like defensive play just gets a bad rap in Smash in general, and people would rather have it be nipped in the bud than have to deal with it in the long term. Really, I see people get saltier from Zelda, Ivy, and Jiggs losses then they do getting 4 stocked by a spacie.

 

[GeZ]

M2K also said Falco was broken, Bowser was top tier, and that Sheik wasn't that good, none of which are actually the case. People like Strong Bad, Reflex, Hylian, Oro etc are people whose opinions generally hold more weight in my eyes than M2K's.

While Ivysaur is top 5, I don't agree with her being nerfed, and don't see how she makes the metagame "toxic". Defensive characters are very good to have in Project M, as it offers diversity in playstyle as well as forcing players to focus on their spacing or improve upon it for that matchup (god forbid). It's like defensive play just gets a bad rap in Smash in general, and people would rather have it be nipped in the bud than have to deal with it in the long term. Really, I see people get saltier from Zelda, Ivy, and Jiggs losses then they do getting 4 stocked by a spacie.

The thing is she excels not at just keep away, which I agree should be more present than it is, but at too dominant space control. She does it as good, if not better, than some characters who's forte it should be.

 

[Deleted member]

Ivysaur is controversial, but I still feel like she would have been fine with just 2 changes:
1. Toning down Razor Leaf
2. Slightly slowing down Bair
Unfortunately, I have a strong feeling that she is going to be over-nerfed, but I guess we'll find out soon.

I agree with Vashimus about the general consensus regarding defensive characters in Smash. A lot of people simply don't like them. If a defensive character is good, then people are going to automatically complain that they're too good because they don't like playing against the character. Because of this, we'll probably never end up with another top tier defensive character.

 

[PastLink]

Ivysaur is a controversial character, but I feel like she would have been fine with just 2 changes:
1. Toning down Razor Leaf
2. Slightly slowing down Bair
Unfortunately, I have a strong feeling that she is going to be over-nerfed, but I guess we'll find out soon.

I agree with Vashimus about the general consensus about defensive characters in Smash. A lot of people just don't like them. If a defensive character is good, then people are going to automatically complain that they're too good because they don't like playing against the character. Because of this, we'll probably never end up with another top tier defensive character.

I really hope this isn't true, I'm fine with a defensive character to play against. it diversifies the cast. I mean smash already has the most amount of tanks in ratio to the cast compared to other fighters (most only have one maybe two. we have like... 6?) and I'd like characters to be shaken up a bit. heck I'd love a full on grappler, though that's sorta donkey kong with the cargo hold deal.

 

[hand]

Ivy's bair priority will be nerfed I guess. UpB ain't a problem since you cannot really spam it lol

 

[GeZ]

Ivy's bair priority will be nerfed I guess. UpB ain't a problem since you cannot really spam it lol

It kills outright too easily, at too low percent, and is combo'd into off of too many things. It's pretty spammable.

 

[hand]

As far as my experience goes, it is EXTREMELY hard to land when your opponent knows his DI.
It sends foes offstage pretty quickly, but hardly lands a KO at early percentages.
I think people are bothered mostly by Ivy's Razor Leaf game. It just eliminates so many options.
When they make it a forced "smash throw" instead of letting the player decide how it's thrown it will be way easier to deal with.

 

[PastLink]

It kills outright too easily, at too low percent, and is combo'd into off of too many things. It's pretty spammable.

I always sorta thought it was stupid how it's a kill move. that seemed to me like it should be one of those strictly combo moves. same thing with Nair (though that one doesn't kill easy as Bair)

 

[Deleted member]

I don't think Vine Whip was a problem at all. You really shouldn't be getting killed by that move often.

The problem was Razor Leaf and Bair. Tone those two moves down and she would have been fine.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

How falco's dair remains a pure spike for all of its frames and people are concerned about ivy's bair is beyond me.

 

[PastLink]

How falco's dair remains a pure spike for all of its frames and people are concerned about ivy's bair is beyond me.

never said it wasn't a problem, the topic is just on ivy for the moment.

 

[GeZ]

I think that Up B covers too many options though. Sure with good DI it's harder to land but DI'ing away from it leads to other things for Ivysaur. It's like, pick your poison.

 

[hand]

I think downB should be changed drastically. It is a zero risk juggle and plain stupid.
(I say that as an Ivysaur main)

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

And one can shield razor leaf or punch it out of the air. Seed bomb stays in the air long enough that it isn't a huge issue to avoid, it's more of an issue with the camera rather than Ivy. I mean tether is difficult to guard against, but that's essentially the point of project m, as it says in the mission statement. To make recovery easier, and while making offstage edgeguarding more difficult, it's also going to be more rewarding.

 

[hand]

You cannot really shield Razor Leaf without getting grabbed during shieldstun.

 

[Dng3]

It takes a lot of guess work and spacing to land a Vine Whip hit as well, and it's also very punishable if whiffed. I think it's fine and balanced as it is.

Any other Ivy players avoiding playing him/her for now until 3.0 since you'll have to adjust to changes? lol

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

What about dodging, or does razor leaf linger too long for that to be a possibility? I've only every played lvl 9 cpu ivys so I'm not sure here, I've just watched matches.

 

[hand]

As I said, if Razor Leaf is smashthrown it ain't really a problem.
When you let it linger it's a nifty little motherf@%er.

 

[Dng3]

If you meant side-dodging then yea it wouldn't help much against the slow version of razor leaf. It's a pretty set move that allows easy follow ups.

I always wondered if they just made razorleaf disappear on shield and keep its speed. It would make it more balanced no?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

But easier to clank, so can't you just jab at it? Or if razor leaf is non-clankable (which I think it isn't, I clank it with waddle dees a bunch from what I remember) then it at least needs to be changd to have a lower priority or clank more often or whatever

 

[GeZ]

It takes a lot of guess work and spacing to land a Vine Whip hit as well, and it's also very punishable if whiffed. I think it's fine and balanced as it is.

Any other Ivy players avoiding playing him/her for now until 3.0 since you'll have to adjust to changes? lol

Really? I wouldn't call UpB balanced... It can scare people to DI into combo's or worse options for themself. And when it does hit it can kill off the top/ side really well. It's cray.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

If you meant side-dodging then yea it wouldn't help much against the slow version of razor leaf. It's a pretty set move that allows easy follow ups.

I always wondered if they just made razorleaf disappear on shield and keep its speed. It would make it more balanced no?

no I meant like holding the control stick down while holding sheild idk what it's called

 

[hand]

Spotdodges.
Disappearing upon shield contact might tackle that problem pretty well.

 

[Dng3]

Really? I wouldn't call UpB balanced... It can scare people to DI into combo's or worse options for themself. And when it does hit it can kill off the top/ side really well. It's cray.

Well yea it's all part of the mind game, like with the rest of smash/fighting game genre. If opponent DIs wrong, they get hit. If they DI properly, you miss the vine whip and get punished. It's only ever "safe" I guess if you throw it out random while on the ground, but you'll more than often combo into in while in the air.

 

[Dng3]

no I meant like holding the control stick down while holding sheild idk what it's called

Yup. It's just called side-dodging/side-stepping =)

Edit: the person above has it right. SPOT DODGING is the proper term.

 

[KayB]

I believe M2K thinks Shiek got nerfed because he heavily relied on specific setups using b-throw and d-throw, both which were changed. I don't know whether you can call it a nerf or not, because while she lost some insane options, she gained some new ones as well. Just ones that don't exactly favor M2K's playstyle.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

"If x, y?"

No wonder he thinks Ivysaur is the best character in the game.

 

[JOE!]

It kills outright too easily, at too low percent, and is combo'd into off of too many things. It's pretty spammable.

 

[Deleted member]

It takes a lot of guess work and spacing to land a Vine Whip hit as well, and it's also very punishable if whiffed. I think it's fine and balanced as it is.

the problem is that we already know that players will put in the time and effort to hit it consistently, and then the move is stupid again. ranged/disjointed kill move that kills way too low out of a throw = no. razor leaf into guaranteed grab = no. the character clearly needs some changes.

edit: this being similar for wolf is actually my problem with that character as well.

edit 2: i did fine vs m2k with my mid tier sheik.

 

[GeZ]

Well yea it's all part of the mind game, like with the rest of smash/fighting game genre. If opponent DIs wrong, they get hit. If they DI properly, you miss the vine whip and get punished. It's only ever "safe" I guess if you throw it out random while on the ground, but you'll more than often combo into in while in the air.

Actually what I'm referring to is part of how it's too dominant. Basically the implication of the move makes you DI into other options for Ivysaur. In the standard situation the opponent pressures you into choosing what to DI towards and be vulnerable to, but there's always a choice of what's safer on your part. With Ivysaur it's always better to DI away from UpB, but that lands you into lengthy combos that lead into the same situation until you're at so high a percent it doesn't matter which way you DI, because they can now kill you with other tools.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The problem lies in that U-Throw is always the best Ivysaur throw instead of being a 50/50 with D-Throw. There's not really any guesswork to be had with a 90-degree throw as much as it is good reflexes.

 

[Nguz95]

The problem lies in that U-Throw is always the best Ivysaur throw instead of being a 50/50 with D-Throw. There's not really any guesswork to be had with a 90-degree throw as much as it is good reflexes.

That's true. She has two of the best throws ever. Dthrow is amazing on its own, but uthrow is just in a different league.

On razor leaf, DMG said he would smash di the razor leaves so Ivy wouldn't have any followups. It resets the neutral, but it kepps you from getting grabbed. You can also jump over the razor leaves. If you are playing a character with a nice lasting aerial (ike, lucas, spacies) you can usually get to Ivy pretty quickly. I realize that you can get pretty predictable after a while, but it's an option.

On tethers, there are two ways to edgeguard ivy. One is to grab the edge, wait for her to tether, and then drop down with a sex kick. The other is to grab the edge and force her to do the ledge jump. When she does the ledge jump, smack her with one of your aerials and get a combo going. Mario does both of these things very well, as he has both a sex kick and a super powerful fair. All the spacies can trash her with the second option. You just have to think outside the box a little to edgeguard her.

 

[DMG]

Jumping over Razor Leaf doesn't do much though. Usually that just means Ivy can toss *insert disregard for spacing and timing* Bair out and just win. You can't shield, cc, or DD to try and get past the move's range once you go airborne, so it's kind of a GG checkmate. For most characters, it's smarter to stay grounded and either eat the leaf (or dodge it close to the ground/clank it) and then try to close the gap on Ivy. Not to mention it can be a bit hard to jump over Leafs that aren't used directly on the ground, but still cover grounded targets.


SDIing the Leaf as a solution to avoid the cheesy follow up grab is true, and it's pretty easy to get down, but it effectively doesn't help you if the Ivy decides to wait and see what your reaction to Leaf is. Once Ivy throws a Leaf to cover ground options, and then waits with her back turned, you have a pretty braindead strat that stuffs most approaches on the surface. There's a lot of CC and SDI in general that people haven't properly applied against Ivysaur, that really does help, but the core issues at hand with Ivy still persist. The character does too much now and doesn't have any strongly identifiable weaknesses. Her biggest weakness literally may be dying off the top nullifies her recovery.


Edit: I made a post earlier but Smashboards was crashing. I'll post it here too, although it reflects a similar view I've already expressed.



"Ivy can be managed better with intelligent CC and SDI, but it's still an uphill battle for a lot of characters. She would be less frustrating if she had very noticeable weaknesses: she doesn't. There's a huge list of positive aspects, and some of her moves are frankly too useful. Just take Bair:

1. Floaty people like Peach or Luigi (in the air) loathe trying to get past it, the range is pretty noticeable and hard to challenge in the air regardless

2. Characters without a lot of range in the air loathe trying to get past it (Characters without very good ground mobility who can't dare challenge it in the air also have issues)

3. The move is capable of gimping and threatening a wide range of recoveries, or at the very least covering the edge in a safe way

4. Her floatiness allows her to do multiple Bairs offstage (or even onstage) without a huge risk of dying, which ensures a large "coverage" area you can work with

5. Has a sweetspot for a stronger hit

6. Hits more than once, giving you leniancy on timing

7. Covers enough of an arc to hit even very low characters like crawling Snake/Sheik/etc, and enough to catch people sorta above/diagonal to her back

8. Not much endlag attached to the move (and not much startup either), making it quite safe

Like wtf the move does everything! How many aerials are truly like this? Sheeeet"

 

[Ogopogo]

There's not really any guesswork to be had with a 90-degree throw as much as it is good reflexes.

Good...reflexes.

please don't kill me

 

[TheReflexWonder]

BAD Reflexes, more like. :D

 

[ELI-mination]

I generally don't agree with a lot of the stuff that M2K says about the characters in P:M, but I do agree with him when he says "stop nerfing characters"....
Because honestly not only does it make the game/players look bad, but in many cases it destroys the will of certain people to continue playing the game when their characters get absurdly nerfed just because other people haven't either learned how to play against these characters yet, or simply don't like them/their style.

But if I had to make an impromptu top 5 list in this game it would pretty much be: Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, Metaknight