No offense but I feel like this is the kind of mind set that led to 2.5 Ike and 2.6 Sonic. Almost everyone agrees that some of Ivy's tools are too good, most notably Razor Leaf and Bair. However that doesn't mean nerf every good move she has. It's terrible for the game if every character that approaches top tier in one version automatically becomes low tier in the next.
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
No offense but I feel like this is the kind of mind set that led to 2.5 Ike and 2.6 Sonic. Almost everyone agrees that some of Ivy's tools are too good, most notably Razor Leaf and Bair. However that doesn't mean nerf every good move she has. It's terrible for the game if every character that approaches top tier in one version automatically becomes low tier in the next.
Dng3
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2008
- Messages
- 129
I'm totally understanding of the nerf coming to Ivy, but I agree with some of the folks above that it's unhealthy to impulsively demand nerfs to moves, which other characters themselves may share similar traits to.
Up B kills and up throw leads to combos? Yes, but so do other moves in the game. Fox's up throw to Uair, Falcon's down/up throw to knee, etc. Grabs were meant to be rewarded I thought. I'm going to still play Ivy with other characters but it seems like Ivy is getting picked apart move by move, and just taking away from his/her initial design. Bair, Fair, Nair, f-tilt, u-tilt, down-tilt, down-smash, side b, down b, up b.
These were all moves which got buffs from 2.5>2.6, but obviously this was a step in the wrong direction. Really makes me wish we never got 2.6 Ivy because now it just spoiled those who play him/her.
Up B kills and up throw leads to combos? Yes, but so do other moves in the game. Fox's up throw to Uair, Falcon's down/up throw to knee, etc. Grabs were meant to be rewarded I thought. I'm going to still play Ivy with other characters but it seems like Ivy is getting picked apart move by move, and just taking away from his/her initial design. Bair, Fair, Nair, f-tilt, u-tilt, down-tilt, down-smash, side b, down b, up b.
These were all moves which got buffs from 2.5>2.6, but obviously this was a step in the wrong direction. Really makes me wish we never got 2.6 Ivy because now it just spoiled those who play him/her.
tbh even nerfing razor leaf on its own could do wonders, since once you do that you now have more characters who can play her spacing game and come out living
I still dunno what changes I'd want for MK past fsmash and dthrow. maybe find a way to make his recovery not as free, who knows
I still dunno what changes I'd want for MK past fsmash and dthrow. maybe find a way to make his recovery not as free, who knows
Wait 'til you play the character instead of speculating on how everything might have been manhandled, IMO.
List of what I would possibly do with MK:
1. Change Dair completely into something else
2. Make MK Fsmash faster, slightly weaker, and a bit more lag at the end
3. I would consider making MK Ftilt not 3 swings. Much easier to balance in all aspects if this is done
4. Make him not so Dthrow happy, it's kind of annoying
5. Down B is interesting... What I would do is start the actual movement sooner (it takes him time to vanish and then a split second before you can actually move him somewhere, no slashes included) so that you can position MK a bit better (if you want to keep the frame data the same, make him travel in a direction slower while initiating the movement faster). To compensate for this, cut back on the knockback/damage scaling and/or give it spacing properties that reward good usage. Hit the sweetspot and you get rewarded, or slightly different knockback angles based on where you hit with the move etc
6. I can't say that I'm frame perfect in trying this so I may be wrong, but I don't think his Nair can be auto cancelled from a SH. I would consider opening the window up for this, if only for Nairs started in the very first frames of a SH. If this is already possibly, then make it more lenient by a frame or two.
7. I would consider making Bair hit further behind (only horizontally, it doesn't need any more vertical reach), possibly at the cost of something else
1. Change Dair completely into something else
2. Make MK Fsmash faster, slightly weaker, and a bit more lag at the end
3. I would consider making MK Ftilt not 3 swings. Much easier to balance in all aspects if this is done
4. Make him not so Dthrow happy, it's kind of annoying
5. Down B is interesting... What I would do is start the actual movement sooner (it takes him time to vanish and then a split second before you can actually move him somewhere, no slashes included) so that you can position MK a bit better (if you want to keep the frame data the same, make him travel in a direction slower while initiating the movement faster). To compensate for this, cut back on the knockback/damage scaling and/or give it spacing properties that reward good usage. Hit the sweetspot and you get rewarded, or slightly different knockback angles based on where you hit with the move etc
6. I can't say that I'm frame perfect in trying this so I may be wrong, but I don't think his Nair can be auto cancelled from a SH. I would consider opening the window up for this, if only for Nairs started in the very first frames of a SH. If this is already possibly, then make it more lenient by a frame or two.
7. I would consider making Bair hit further behind (only horizontally, it doesn't need any more vertical reach), possibly at the cost of something else
I actually like nearly all of DMG's ideas. They sound wonderful. I definitely agree with 1, 4, 5. 2 and 3 sound like interesting changes too. The only one I kinda disagree with is 7, which I think is kind of unnecessary tbh.
| Kailex |
I smell like salty coins and milk
Im happy with the current mk, only things that can change are f-smash and d-throw
I'm down for most of those. what would you switch out dair for though? hopefully not his vbrawl dair, that stuff's a whole nother can of worms
it's a reasonable worry, dude. remember, we went from sonic being one of the best characters in the game to gutter trash in a single update, overnerfing is a thing that's happened before
If melee shield pushback is implemented in the next update, I could see moves like Mario and MK's f-smash being untouched. That one change would go a long way towards making moves like these more punishable on block.
D
Deleted member
Guest
at the very least he needs to have one actual good recovery and not 4 recoveries, 3 of which are kill moves but suck for actually recovering. another dair would be much appreciated too.
...how do you honestly think there's even a single bad recovery for MK
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Why do people not like MK's new dair
like, PMBR could have just slowed down his jank brawl dair that broke the possibility of being dedicated when he went into the air, leaving it feeling either still too good for P:M's environment or too lack luster in comparison to brawl's, but to me it feels like they did it one better making it into a combo starter/continuer/suicide multi-hit divekick
I'm not saying it's perfect I just don't get what's wrong with it, much less why he should have something else completely instead of just tweaking what it is now
like, PMBR could have just slowed down his jank brawl dair that broke the possibility of being dedicated when he went into the air, leaving it feeling either still too good for P:M's environment or too lack luster in comparison to brawl's, but to me it feels like they did it one better making it into a combo starter/continuer/suicide multi-hit divekick
I'm not saying it's perfect I just don't get what's wrong with it, much less why he should have something else completely instead of just tweaking what it is now
It's a silly move that feels very janky, and with the history of other characters, everyone else tends to go a different direction than where MK's Dair is design wise. If you use it offstage you're basically dead, which would be cool if it guaranteed that the person dies BUT IT DOESN'T! Onstage, it's a cheesy approaching/getting down tool that usually forces the other person to kind of sit there and not doing anything because "Captain Jackass" might fly at you OR straight down OR away in the other direction OR he may just keep jumping there or naturally fall.
One move is creating an ambiguous landing game for no reason, instead of being IDK an actual aerial? Almost every character from Brawl with a Dair that plummets you, had it changed. Sonic kept his but they added useful properties to it and he can land it out of combos offstage for fun times. Wario got a new Dair, but his works much smoother and is much easier to balance. Not to mention you can actually try it offstage and not die for landing it. TL and Sheik got reverted to Melee, which is good, but you could apply your argument to those cases as well. Why not try to tweak them in their Brawl state? The answer was more than just "bcz Melee". Those kind of Dairs aren't popular and are very hard to make satisfying for both ends. How would you balance Kirby Stone or Bowser Bomb, if you turned them into Multi hit moves that you can also angle (and in Stone's case, couldn't cancel out of)? Same thing with Ganon and Falcon. These characters have alternative properties that make sense (even if Falcon Kick from the air is pretty crappy overall), and if we were to start tweaking them it would probably be easier to balance than judging what in the hell you do with MK's Dair as is. On top of it all, MK is using his Dair slot for this move. He could be having something more like a regular aerial, instead filled with this. If you replaced all of those character's Dairs with their respective Down B from the air, you'd have an outrage and it would feel silly wouldn't it? Imagine Captain Falcon doing a multi hit foot dive instead of his stomp, it's an awful thought.
For extending combos, you could come up with something else. You could use a Meteor, a Mario-like Dair, maybe even something like Snake?
I mean, if you really want you can try to balance and fiddle with his current Dair, but it would be so much easier (and probably really satisfying) to take it a different direction and find something cool. You could try the Brawl Dair with tweaks, a multi hit Sword Slash Dair kind of like what Snake does but possibly not sending them down, a whirling spin like Mario or Squirtle, something like ZSS's Dair kick, etc. There has got to be a more satisfying alternative than Hasbro's "My Little Kamikaze Plane".
One move is creating an ambiguous landing game for no reason, instead of being IDK an actual aerial? Almost every character from Brawl with a Dair that plummets you, had it changed. Sonic kept his but they added useful properties to it and he can land it out of combos offstage for fun times. Wario got a new Dair, but his works much smoother and is much easier to balance. Not to mention you can actually try it offstage and not die for landing it. TL and Sheik got reverted to Melee, which is good, but you could apply your argument to those cases as well. Why not try to tweak them in their Brawl state? The answer was more than just "bcz Melee". Those kind of Dairs aren't popular and are very hard to make satisfying for both ends. How would you balance Kirby Stone or Bowser Bomb, if you turned them into Multi hit moves that you can also angle (and in Stone's case, couldn't cancel out of)? Same thing with Ganon and Falcon. These characters have alternative properties that make sense (even if Falcon Kick from the air is pretty crappy overall), and if we were to start tweaking them it would probably be easier to balance than judging what in the hell you do with MK's Dair as is. On top of it all, MK is using his Dair slot for this move. He could be having something more like a regular aerial, instead filled with this. If you replaced all of those character's Dairs with their respective Down B from the air, you'd have an outrage and it would feel silly wouldn't it? Imagine Captain Falcon doing a multi hit foot dive instead of his stomp, it's an awful thought.
For extending combos, you could come up with something else. You could use a Meteor, a Mario-like Dair, maybe even something like Snake?
I mean, if you really want you can try to balance and fiddle with his current Dair, but it would be so much easier (and probably really satisfying) to take it a different direction and find something cool. You could try the Brawl Dair with tweaks, a multi hit Sword Slash Dair kind of like what Snake does but possibly not sending them down, a whirling spin like Mario or Squirtle, something like ZSS's Dair kick, etc. There has got to be a more satisfying alternative than Hasbro's "My Little Kamikaze Plane".
Burnsy
Smash Lord
I cannot believe that people STILL think 2.6 Sonic is "trash", "bottom 5", or that he received "knee-jerk reaction nerfs".
The most disgusting part is that nearly 75% of discussions I see revolving around this character are either whining or buff-begging disguised as whining, when discussions should be focused around trying to understand his MUs and improving his metagame.
The most disgusting part is that nearly 75% of discussions I see revolving around this character are either whining or buff-begging disguised as whining, when discussions should be focused around trying to understand his MUs and improving his metagame.
Nguz95
Smash Lord
The Mewtwo boards already look like this... Half of the posts there are suggestions on how to improve the character
I like the part where you're pretending that you're somehow above this whining, as if this entire post wasn't just "people have opinions, what pricks"
you aren't even saying anything about him, you legit just said "WELL WHY DON'T WE TALK ABOUT HIS MATCHUPS THEN" and then kind of hoped everyone else would do everything else for you. get a holda yourself
on that note: sonic is still trash, hovering around 2.1 levels of trash, but at least 2.1 sonic had some really good matchups to compensate
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,550
It's always amusing how these types of discussions always tend to gravitate toward what should be changed rather than how good characters are or how to play them. The PMBR takes note of public opinion, but more often than not if there's an actual problem it'll be addressed regardless of whether or not there's tons of support/complaints. Really, the best thing the community can do to improve the game's balance is explore and develop the metagame of what's already there. That's really the only way we'll actually get a better understanding of where characters stand and what things actually need changes. I know that's tough after the announcement of a new version, but it still happens during the meat of a version's lifespan quite a bit, and sorry to say that it's mostly a waste of time. If you're really interested in contributing to the project in that way, you should consider applying to be a playtester.
D
Deleted member
Guest
all 4 of them are pretty easy to edge guard and you generally know what he's going to do depending on his positioning, but then 3 of them are also potent kill moves in their own right. this means that MK is either easily edge guarded, or MK easily converts off of his recovery, depending on the player performing the edge guard. this is annoying for both the MK player, who in theory has a lot of options that all suck, and the player edge guarding, because it's far too easy to get killed out of positional advantage. if these attributes were to normalized, it would be a lot better for both players in terms of interaction because it allows the MK to play out of poor position, trading volatility for reliability and it allows the player performing the edge guard to have more of a sense of positional advantage that is implicit when edge guarding rather than worrying about randomly getting killed by stage spikes at 0 or w/e other random **** there is.
i recommend that MK be able to grab the edge out of tornado with maybe half the lag it has now, side B being much weaker and easier to crouch on hit, a more variable range for side B, and down B being not a kill move at like 70.
i understand that play testing against the recovery helps mitigate the issue of MK converting out of a recovery, but even then his ability to "get lucky" is much higher with this character than it is for any other character, and that still only solves the problem for the other player and not MK with a set of subpar recovery options.
because it lets MK escape juggles at will, and that's stupid. it's also pretty crappy as an attack, which means that MK will almost always be using it to sidestep positional disadvantage. considering that this character is a little ****** with an amazing dash and multiple jumps, i'd say he already has enough stage control.
PastLink
Smash Journeyman
most controversial character in smash indeed
"because it lets MK escape juggles at will, and that's stupid. it's also pretty crappy as an attack, which means that MK will almost always be using it to sidestep positional disadvantage. considering that this character is a little ****er with an amazing dash and multiple jumps, i'd say he already has enough stage control"
^^^^
This has become the most prominent use, because 95% of the time any other application isn't as good. Even falling down on someone during a combo with it can be iffy due to SDI. His own DD/ground positioning game is good enough to threaten grabs, and to close the gap for a more traditional approach, so you probably don't need Dair from the skies for a new approaching tool. Idk, I don't think the move fits and it would be unfair to buff an aspect like his recovery (that could use a tad bit of help perhaps) and leave in his ability to get back to the ground.
^^^^
This has become the most prominent use, because 95% of the time any other application isn't as good. Even falling down on someone during a combo with it can be iffy due to SDI. His own DD/ground positioning game is good enough to threaten grabs, and to close the gap for a more traditional approach, so you probably don't need Dair from the skies for a new approaching tool. Idk, I don't think the move fits and it would be unfair to buff an aspect like his recovery (that could use a tad bit of help perhaps) and leave in his ability to get back to the ground.
Nguz95
Smash Lord
In a few days we'll be able to see if the PMBR decided to change his dair. In my opinion the chance they changed to a different move is almost zero; however, I would not be surprised of they modified it a little.
Can we talk about a different character? My vote goes to Lucas, but you know I'm biased.
Can we talk about a different character? My vote goes to Lucas, but you know I'm biased.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
But MK doesn't even win tournaments. 
Pikmin1211
Smash Journeyman
Why are Ivysaur and Lucario so low? Too much hate.
The first post is massively out of date. If you check ones posted recently, Ivysaur is almost universally seen at Top 10.
As for Lucario, he's a far cry from 2.1 scariness, and so people aren't too impressed.
Zwarm
Smash Hero
3.0 Ivysaur is perfect imo
Also Squirtle withdraw beats Razor Leaf
I'm late to the party
Also Squirtle withdraw beats Razor Leaf
I'm late to the party
Pikmin1211
Smash Journeyman
What changes to Ivy did they make in 3.0?
More cheap BAir?
More cheap BAir?
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
Seriously? Why make baseless remarks like that? We don't have 3.0 yet.
Pikmin1211
Smash Journeyman
Sadly.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
Well Zwarm was just referring to the dev build renditions of Ivy he has played as "3.0". All 12000 revisions of Ivy and Sonic 
Pikmin1211
Smash Journeyman
Too much Sanic.Well Zwarm was just referring to the dev build renditions of Ivy he has played as "3.0". All 12000 revisions of Ivy and Sonic
Sixth-Sense
Smash Ace
Well Zwarm was just referring to the dev build renditions of Ivy he has played as "3.0". All 12000 revisions of Ivy and Sonic
This is the kind of **** that makes this mod team so incredible, sure i haven't tried 3.0 but the sheer number of revisions is astounding
Oro?!
Smash Hero
If only we could remove Sonic and Olimar
RIDLEY is too SMALL
Smash Journeyman
metroid1117
Smash Master
Kirby is probably an intergalactic, multi-cellular bacteria that can incorporate the DNA of whatever he consumes into his plasmids and express those genes just moments after incorporating them.
Sanity's_Theif
Smash Ace
I hope Ivy is getting some nerfs, **** that B-air, you can spam that move and there's hardly any way to get around it or stop it, and razor leaf is also ridiculous, multi-hit slow-moving projectile that forces you into shield where you get grabbed or into jump where you get Baired
And why in the hell can Squirtle's side-B eat Ganondorf's side-smash and go right through it? Same with Squirtle's armor on his sidesmash, and is there any way to punish squirtle's side-B after shielding it? It eats through any attack I throw at it
There's some janky *** things that need to be addressed in certain characters
And why in the hell can Squirtle's side-B eat Ganondorf's side-smash and go right through it? Same with Squirtle's armor on his sidesmash, and is there any way to punish squirtle's side-B after shielding it? It eats through any attack I throw at it
There's some janky *** things that need to be addressed in certain characters
SixSaw
Smash Journeyman
Or maybe he has extremely sensitive taste buds that allow him to learn someone's fighting style by tasting them. That and he plays a lot of TF2.