Scythe
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2004
- Messages
- 3,875
it's not guaranteed and the timing is different on certain characters. It's very smash DIable
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Burnsy
Smash Lord
To add to this, an IC main on the PM ICs boards posted impressions and mentioned that the dthrow dair was even easier to escape than it was in Melee. Might be fast enough to try if used as a mix-up, I'm not sure.
Kirby's Rock makes him feel like he's Perma-floating everywhere. So fun. I wouldn't doubt it becomes a center-piece to the character.
Bowser Klaw-Hopping style or whatever it was called (Brawl thing)
I commented on this stuff in my earlier post but... the trajectory on Roy's Side-B (Side-B > Side-B UP > Side-B DOWN) is amazing for kills, and it's REALLY easy to land F-Smash off almost any linked hit otherwise.
He's a good character. I have a feeling people will spam N-Air too much for their own good, because of how good it feels. It was all over streams pre-release, I don't doubt it'll continue.
Nana acts odd and kills herself if you Up-B from above the ledge... She's confusing otherwise too (new AI) but getting used to her, and abusing de-synchs more than CGs, is a nice direction to attempt taking them at least.
Bowser Klaw-Hopping style or whatever it was called (Brawl thing)
I commented on this stuff in my earlier post but... the trajectory on Roy's Side-B (Side-B > Side-B UP > Side-B DOWN) is amazing for kills, and it's REALLY easy to land F-Smash off almost any linked hit otherwise.
He's a good character. I have a feeling people will spam N-Air too much for their own good, because of how good it feels. It was all over streams pre-release, I don't doubt it'll continue.
Nana acts odd and kills herself if you Up-B from above the ledge... She's confusing otherwise too (new AI) but getting used to her, and abusing de-synchs more than CGs, is a nice direction to attempt taking them at least.
Nguz95
Smash Lord
The Ice Climbers are so good. Not being able to do the Dair reset isn't the end of the world imo.
Roy Nair is like Marth Nair. Both probably used far too much by people new to him. Roy even moreso right now because it's pretty and new.
It has niche uses, but yeah in general you should likely be doing something else other than Nairplaning around with Roy.
It has niche uses, but yeah in general you should likely be doing something else other than Nairplaning around with Roy.
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
While this might be too early to make pronouncements, DDD might be the worst character in the game. He wasn't in 2.6 but he is now. His already poor and predictable recovery lost its armor, his fsmash lost its edgeguarding meteor, and the "frame cleanup" of fair didn't seem to affect much. Most importantly, however, the changing of shield pushback, while seemingly a buff because of DDD's grab-happy game, is actually a nerf. When a character was attacking DDD in 2.6, he could sheild, be pushed back out of the range of a jab or a grab, but still within DDD's large grab range. Now, however, DDD doesn't move away much if at all, leaving the opponent with a free grab if DDD sheilds or a free jab if DDD goes for a grab, as most character's jabs outprioritize his grab. Obviously on a move with lots of cooldown, DDD can still get a grab/punish, but for the most part it feels as though DDD isn't safe while shielding and that his grab game is more difficult than before. DDD was seen as a incredibly linear character based around grabs and fairs in 2.6, and nerfing his grab game while making an already-fat DDD less safe inside of shield only pushes him down the tier list. Which is kind of odd, considering as DDD was widely considered to be one of the worst characters in 2.6.
This is all based off of limited time playing 3.0, so if I'm wrong correct me
This is all based off of limited time playing 3.0, so if I'm wrong correct me
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
Roy is a pretty garbage character imo. Every good character in PM can recover as well as a Brawl character can (or better!) or at least put up a fight. Roy has a bad combination of "poor" and "predictable" when it comes to his recovery. If Roy survives off stage, it's because the opponent let him. Fun fact! Mewtwo can just drop off the ledge and down-air and spike Roy out of his up+b then safely make it back to the stage. Being able to CC virtually every one of Roy's attacks, including his over-b mid combo, and then grab or shield grab him, is just insane. He has a few flashy combos and jumping off stage with a neutral b can end a lot of characters early, but Roy is just too easily gimped. Without some sort of buff to his up+b I don't see him doing anything special.
Mewtwo's shadowball is ridiculous. 25% damage moving super fast across the stage with insane knockback, enough to where you get a fully charged neutral B again by the time they are on their feet! It's pretty fun, but might be a little too strong. I'm able to jump off stage and shadow ball to where they're going to jump and nair or bair where they won't for some nice edgeguarding. Mewtwo's over-b and neutral b has saved him from being a bad character that just gets zoned; I originally had strong worry that people would just wait for a mewtwo's bair and just hit his tail, but you can pretty easily force an approach with neutral B. His over-B underneath platforms makes shielding even an aerial mewtwo dangerous. His hypnosis seems pretty worthless.
I hate Mewtwo's float, mostly because I randomly lose my double jump from time to time due to poor input on my part, especially when I am dropping off the ledge and attacking. I imagine it'll get better with experience, but the float just seems fairly clunky. Tech chasing with up+b is amazing and the amount of space it gives you is awesome. Your opponent has to choose where you can land, or where you can up+b to. If there are platforms, it is near impossible for your opponent to edgeguard you if they aren't a fast character. Just up+b through them and bair or reverse shadowball as you land. Worst case scenario you both get hit and you're on the better side of the stage.
Bowser's new nair is <3. Falling nair to f-tilt, rising nair to tech chase koopa klaw when they land on platform... its good. Like the changes on his firebreath too.
Olimar seems uninspired. I wasn't an Olimar main in Brawl, so I may be missing many subtleties, but he seemed very plain and boring. Very unlike other PM characters. I found it very easy for Olimar's pikmin to die and his pluck was so slow it was pretty dangerous. His neutral B hop in the air is amazing and I was using it to dance around shields, was a lot of fun. The white pikmin crash bomb thing is neat though.
Samus was fun, but the Ice form didn't do much for me. I just didn't see much of a drastic change, was hoping for some cool style switches rather than minor adjustments. They might be more drastic than I realize; as with Olimar, I'm not a Samus expert and in Melee she was a character that required a lot of finesse and knowledge if you wanted to do more than CC d-smash. I liked that you could charge in the air and that you could super wavedash easier. She's fun and her survivability is worth a lot in PM.
Kirby's new dash attack (old?) and up+b cutter are needed improvements. I found it clunky to combo with him the few times I used him. I heavily dislike that he doesn't get Mewtwo's shadowball. WTF >:[
Diddy is a new sleeper with his buffs; his fair was already good. I was able to kill Roy with three fairs from 0%. THREE. Hit, hit off stage, hit prior to using second jump, grab ledge and roll at end.
Yoshi seemed fun but I never really liked him much. Didn't spend much time on him.
I played ICs once, couldn't d-throw to dair on my first two tries, didn't pick 'em up again. Didn't feel like learning a whole new string of ICs stuff with Smash 4 coming out soon anyway.
Ivysaur's nerfs seemed a little silly to me. There are lots of characters with literal auto-combos (DK with a cargo grab, fox with drill or nair to shine to anything, etc., etc.) and Ivy lost a lot of hers. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I felt that Ivysaur's entire game revolved around walling the opponent and creating opportunities for herself while not letting the opponent inside. A lot of her defensive options and trap options were inadvertently removed and it's a lot easier to just toss Ivysaur around now. I was under the impression that other characters were going to be brought up to the level of good characters rather than good brought down to the others, but I guess I was mistaken. It's a shame because I felt Ivysaur was probably the crown jewel design-wise of all of the PM cast; she was one of the few characters that felt "complete", everyone else kinda seems slapped together with no cohesive design in mind but rather an interlocking parts strategy that doesn't seem as smooth... or just enhanced Melee versions.
All in all good release. I see most of the characters being niche characters though; none of them really stand out as top-tier, at least not immediately.
Mewtwo's shadowball is ridiculous. 25% damage moving super fast across the stage with insane knockback, enough to where you get a fully charged neutral B again by the time they are on their feet! It's pretty fun, but might be a little too strong. I'm able to jump off stage and shadow ball to where they're going to jump and nair or bair where they won't for some nice edgeguarding. Mewtwo's over-b and neutral b has saved him from being a bad character that just gets zoned; I originally had strong worry that people would just wait for a mewtwo's bair and just hit his tail, but you can pretty easily force an approach with neutral B. His over-B underneath platforms makes shielding even an aerial mewtwo dangerous. His hypnosis seems pretty worthless.
I hate Mewtwo's float, mostly because I randomly lose my double jump from time to time due to poor input on my part, especially when I am dropping off the ledge and attacking. I imagine it'll get better with experience, but the float just seems fairly clunky. Tech chasing with up+b is amazing and the amount of space it gives you is awesome. Your opponent has to choose where you can land, or where you can up+b to. If there are platforms, it is near impossible for your opponent to edgeguard you if they aren't a fast character. Just up+b through them and bair or reverse shadowball as you land. Worst case scenario you both get hit and you're on the better side of the stage.
Bowser's new nair is <3. Falling nair to f-tilt, rising nair to tech chase koopa klaw when they land on platform... its good. Like the changes on his firebreath too.
Olimar seems uninspired. I wasn't an Olimar main in Brawl, so I may be missing many subtleties, but he seemed very plain and boring. Very unlike other PM characters. I found it very easy for Olimar's pikmin to die and his pluck was so slow it was pretty dangerous. His neutral B hop in the air is amazing and I was using it to dance around shields, was a lot of fun. The white pikmin crash bomb thing is neat though.
Samus was fun, but the Ice form didn't do much for me. I just didn't see much of a drastic change, was hoping for some cool style switches rather than minor adjustments. They might be more drastic than I realize; as with Olimar, I'm not a Samus expert and in Melee she was a character that required a lot of finesse and knowledge if you wanted to do more than CC d-smash. I liked that you could charge in the air and that you could super wavedash easier. She's fun and her survivability is worth a lot in PM.
Kirby's new dash attack (old?) and up+b cutter are needed improvements. I found it clunky to combo with him the few times I used him. I heavily dislike that he doesn't get Mewtwo's shadowball. WTF >:[
Diddy is a new sleeper with his buffs; his fair was already good. I was able to kill Roy with three fairs from 0%. THREE. Hit, hit off stage, hit prior to using second jump, grab ledge and roll at end.
Yoshi seemed fun but I never really liked him much. Didn't spend much time on him.
I played ICs once, couldn't d-throw to dair on my first two tries, didn't pick 'em up again. Didn't feel like learning a whole new string of ICs stuff with Smash 4 coming out soon anyway.
Ivysaur's nerfs seemed a little silly to me. There are lots of characters with literal auto-combos (DK with a cargo grab, fox with drill or nair to shine to anything, etc., etc.) and Ivy lost a lot of hers. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I felt that Ivysaur's entire game revolved around walling the opponent and creating opportunities for herself while not letting the opponent inside. A lot of her defensive options and trap options were inadvertently removed and it's a lot easier to just toss Ivysaur around now. I was under the impression that other characters were going to be brought up to the level of good characters rather than good brought down to the others, but I guess I was mistaken. It's a shame because I felt Ivysaur was probably the crown jewel design-wise of all of the PM cast; she was one of the few characters that felt "complete", everyone else kinda seems slapped together with no cohesive design in mind but rather an interlocking parts strategy that doesn't seem as smooth... or just enhanced Melee versions.
All in all good release. I see most of the characters being niche characters though; none of them really stand out as top-tier, at least not immediately.
\Apples
Smash Journeyman
Doesn't work against players with good reaction time, you get hit in the teeth by an Uair OOS or something. Attacks beat grabs homie. Yes, it's super good, nobody in their right mind would argue that. (I might even argue he shouldn't have so much aerial control during the Bite) I know he'd still be top 5 with those changes applied in 2.6b. The crouch slide really just helped him sooooo much just as a mobility option. I completely agree about the move which baits a shield and then mixes up into a 12+ frame advantage option on block. Get it out by all means, cause that's bs. But just remove the damn hit, why does every move in this mod have to have a hit effect?
Alfonzo Bagpipez
Smash Lord
I haven't played enough 3.0 to comment on the rest, but THIS. It's not PM's fault, though. Olimar was very bland and very unexciting in vBrawl, so they didn't have a lot to work with. However, I still used to enjoy playing him back then. Perhaps my opinion has changed over time, cause I don't like playing this version of him. His moveset seemed to be made specifically for floaty physics. To top it all off, I don't think he's very good either.
I'm happy the PMBR released him, though. He may grow on me now, but I can see Olimar getting a LOT of changes in the future.
" It's a shame because I felt Ivysaur was probably the crown jewel design-wise of all of the PM cast"
What have you done with the real Overswarm, that man would never approve of something like Ivysaur
Like reconsider:
A highly defensive character that also top 3 edge guards in the game (in a very mindless manner, try *missing* with Bair I promise Satan will use his magic to make it work)
Most tilts and aerials just flow into other aerials regardless of DI blame the range or knockback, which leads to a pretty simple "autocombo" gameplay (someone out there is cringing at autocombo, oh well)
Got a GTFO move up close with B which she doesn't need
Very nice and annoying projectile with low lag and 2 speeds
Overall good at recovering (With tether nerfs its a lot more reasonable though)
Decent kill power, very strong with Solar Beam
Pretty good finishes and edgeguard potential from throws
Like, what the **** is her weakness supposed to be in 2.6? Ugly skins? Her design was like "Let's make a sewer monster dipped in radioactive waste fling her tentacles everywhere and win". I mean, she doesn't do things that are alien to an Ivysaur, but it's a lotttt for Smash. I hope her changes let people explore moves instead of loltrain all over people as a "defensive" character
What have you done with the real Overswarm, that man would never approve of something like Ivysaur
Like reconsider:
A highly defensive character that also top 3 edge guards in the game (in a very mindless manner, try *missing* with Bair I promise Satan will use his magic to make it work)
Most tilts and aerials just flow into other aerials regardless of DI blame the range or knockback, which leads to a pretty simple "autocombo" gameplay (someone out there is cringing at autocombo, oh well)
Got a GTFO move up close with B which she doesn't need
Very nice and annoying projectile with low lag and 2 speeds
Overall good at recovering (With tether nerfs its a lot more reasonable though)
Decent kill power, very strong with Solar Beam
Pretty good finishes and edgeguard potential from throws
Like, what the **** is her weakness supposed to be in 2.6? Ugly skins? Her design was like "Let's make a sewer monster dipped in radioactive waste fling her tentacles everywhere and win". I mean, she doesn't do things that are alien to an Ivysaur, but it's a lotttt for Smash. I hope her changes let people explore moves instead of loltrain all over people as a "defensive" character
| Big D |
Smash Master
I think ICs are pretty cool. A lot of the brawl desyncs work well. All you melee ICs try doing consecutive shorthop blizzards. Heck try to do consecutive fullhop blizzards. Throw in some b reverses and you have a really powerful zoning tool that combos into stuff. Throw in some ice blocks and you can make people go where you want. You can also bait people by throwing out a fullhop blizzard with popo and have Nana follow you with downair which is pretty cool.
D
Deleted member
Guest
i played mewtwo and roy very heavily in melee. mewtwo feels excellent. roy feels...clunky. i can't put my finger on why though. but i think it affects his performance. i don't think roy is very good so far.
Alfonzo Bagpipez
Smash Lord
How so? You're probably the only person I've seen who doesn't think he plays smoothly. Just curious...
Ripple
ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
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roy also feels clunky to me too. his up-tilt is odd being reversed, his second jump doesn't feel like what it used to be. and his drop from the ledge puts him farther away from it than everyone else or so it seems, which makes ledge hopping > waveland extremely awkward.
Alfonzo Bagpipez
Smash Lord
Really? I've found ledge dashing to be pretty simple with Roy. Maybe it's because I suck at it with anyone who isn't Mario. I can see where you're coming from with everything else though.
Alfonzo Bagpipez
Smash Lord
Yoshi's got them MAD autocombos. It's insane how good he is now. I LOVE IT!
D
Deleted member
Guest
it's just on cancels i think, but roy is a pretty imput-heavy character. it's like how falcon became smoother going from melee to PM, except the opposite.
Aside from final smashes not a single character in any smash game has an auto-combo.
-.-. C'mon smashers, please realize what a combo is.
Alfonzo Bagpipez
Smash Lord
I guess I should say "effortless combos".
Is that better?
.
RIDLEY is too SMALL
Smash Journeyman
Yoshi is bombtacular.
A rising double-jump Nair offstage will deny most recoveries and is relatively safe due to the armor.
A rising double-jump Nair offstage will deny most recoveries and is relatively safe due to the armor.
XalchemistX
Smash Ace
A lvl 9 cpu Mewtwo did 3 consecutive confusions to my Samus while I was off stage and quickly landed a spike.
I never pressed controller reset so fast
I never pressed controller reset so fast
Sashimi
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 25, 2013
- Messages
- 704
If it's like Melee, Yoshi loses his armor as soon as he cancels his double jump.
skaterbaj
Smash Lord
Roy Aka Marth Jr.
^^^
The only things that threw me for a loop was Utilt and ledge related stuff. However, many characters besides Roy in PM feel much weirder on edge stuff. Ledge hop to Waveland has felt off with a lot of characters, and I'm hoping the changes to stage collision fixed this? If not, just some adjusting to do I guess
I just can't get used to Roy's new Utilt from a functional standpoint, and just from its animation not looking right to me. There's a certain flow to how Marth and Roy always moved and Utilt almost doesn't look like a natural movement. I'm interested in the reasoning behind the change to be honest. *shrug*
I do think Roy has enough going for him to not be just be a bad character, but the Utilt irks me in a way that the other larger changes like Bair and Ftilt don't at all.
I do think Roy has enough going for him to not be just be a bad character, but the Utilt irks me in a way that the other larger changes like Bair and Ftilt don't at all.
Fortress
Smash Master
Dat f-tilt range, though. I think Roy will start to look less 'clunky' and robotic as time goes by. I mean, it's like, the second public version of him, right? Hey, how in the Hell do you DACUS with Roy? I just cannot get the timing. Not that I play Roy, but, I couldn't ever figure it out.
Fortress
Smash Master
Like, suddenly-down-a-stock bad.
Professor Pro
Smash Legend
LOL BR Dêja Vu....
Nguz95
Smash Lord
I don't know what you guys are talking about. Roy is an offensive powerhouse, and he can over power a majority of the cast. His recovery is better than Marth's in terms of horizontal distance covered. His shffl allows him to transition from move to move at ridiculous speeds. His grab range/throw game is Marth's, which means it's really good. He's an incredible smooth, powetyul character. In all honesty he might be better than Marth at the moment.
But it's ok, because the Ice Climbers are the best.
But it's ok, because the Ice Climbers are the best.
This sounds really familiar... oh yeah this is what people were saying about Roy when Melee first came out. It's still not true btw, Marth is the better character.
How do you b reverse blizzard?
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
I would put Ivysaur in top 3 on edgeguarding; I think he's actually more dangerous when he lets you grab the ledge and waits at d-tilt range to pressure you to do something, then attacks from there.
This wasn't ever really true for me after I had more experience playing against Ivy, even as Bowser. It'd be irritating at first to be hit by like 3 bairs and then an f-tilt shield poking me and a jab preventing me from shield grabbing an f-tilt right in front of me, but as time passed I learned how to get inside and once Ivysaur was hit or grabbed I was in control regardless of character.
I could agree with this.
Eh. Whenever Ivysaur used it I was happy because that's when she was most vulnerable. You can just jump over it and wreck her before the lag ends or, in the case of Bowser, just dash attack through it. With someone else you can choose between destroying the projectile or just jumping over it. At first I was like "omg auto grab on hit" but then I stopped being noobish and just SDI'd away when I get hit with it from a distance.
I never really liked Ivysaur's recovery. I could gimp Ivy pretty easily because it's obvious where she's going to be after she uses it, and even if my character can't (some just can't go off stage like that), you can grab the ledge, wait for the hop, then jump and hit her without much effort. CCing by the edge when she was on the ledge was pretty powerful too.
Eh. Felt she had the same problem as Marth in that she could do awesome combos early on but as % increased she was forced to put herself in more compromising positions or just keep tapping away. Solar beam wasn't really ever a concern.
Her throws were pretty good.
Her design was that she couldn't really do much once you got inside. If she was hitting you, she looked awesome. Similar to Charizard and Sheik in how the moves just kinda flow together without any visible effort. If you hit her, she looked like garbage.
I just didn't see Ivysaur as a strong character, just an easy to use character. She had some strengths and some really good matchups, but once you learned "oh, 3 bairs in a row IS unsafe" and "her projectile actually is only good if you respond incorrectly" and "she can't kill me on stage if I don't let her; she has to grab me and throw me off before she has an opportunity", she became much easier to deal with.
Now it's WAY easier to get inside and just run over Ivy.
roy is awkward, sure
but that's a good thing. he SHOULDN'T flow as well as marth, he should be the jagged ripped seams to marth's perfectly smooth ends
whether or not that kills him in the long run isn't really my say, but for all intents and purposes, if he's weird and janky then the conversion is perfect
in other news: MK was unchanged, all hail
but that's a good thing. he SHOULDN'T flow as well as marth, he should be the jagged ripped seams to marth's perfectly smooth ends
whether or not that kills him in the long run isn't really my say, but for all intents and purposes, if he's weird and janky then the conversion is perfect
in other news: MK was unchanged, all hail
Ripple
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I'm sure umbreon will agree with me when I say that in melee, roy could definitely be playedas fast as marth if not not faster because of a shorter short hop and faster fast fall. Shffling with roy was insanely quick and movement around platforms felt smooth and fast.
MLGF
Smash Lord
- Joined
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To everyone complaining about MK being unchanged, think positively.
He could be unchanged from VBrawl.
Anyways, I certainly do prefer Mewtwo to Roy. Although him being the only remaining character with that attack jump cancel mechanic is really hurting my brain.
He could be unchanged from VBrawl.
Anyways, I certainly do prefer Mewtwo to Roy. Although him being the only remaining character with that attack jump cancel mechanic is really hurting my brain.
PsionicSabreur
Smash Journeyman
Roy actually gets a little less distance on his long-distance recovery because he falls faster and his side-b doesn't stall him in the air for as long. Not to mention he's easier to hit out of the up-b, especially if he doesn't climb the lip of the stage. However, if I've got my facts right, Roy's side-b isn't transcendent like Marth's, so it can actually block some projectiles (this would actually matter if consecutive uses didn't hurt his recovery distance so much).
Roy's grab game is also strictly worse than Marth's. It comes down to this: Marth's grab game covers his weak range and throws into his strong range. Roy's covers his strong range and throws out of it.
I can't say much on Roy being better than Marth at this point, but I'm guessing he's a bit below. He legitimately has some strengths over Marth now, though, instead of just "don't you wish you had this dtilt."
In general:
I like this rendition of Roy a lot. A couple things feel "off" relative to the rest of the cast, but he has reasonable damage and hitstun now so I won't complain. I'd rank him as fairly mid-tier, personally.
That said, I think the not-lagtastic-dsmash is probably a significant buff, simply because it makes Roy's game against floaties easier, or at least less dangerous.
Ftilt is only a zoning tool if side-b dashdance stuff isn't, as far as I've used it, which pretty much means only against characters that out-range you to begin with. I've had better luck using it as a shffl followup than zoning, so far. Still, I would consider this move a buff.
Actually, it doesn't seem as if the side-b was changed much in terms of stalling ability. If recovery buffs are in order I'd think we'd either see it to this or a better protective hitbox on up-b. If it were up to me I'd say give him something weird like a hop on aerial side-b 2-up or something, since changing up the momentum decline on the first hit can mess with his on-stage game, but honestly just tweaking the first hit's momentum could be a worthy trade-off (and possibly a good thing on-stage, as well).
Utilt is weird, since ftilt being changed as well means Roy doesn't have a grounded move with quick, forward arcing coverage, (maybe side-b, but it won't knock them out of that zone). I guess fsmash or flare blade hits the entire area well enough, so maybe the old utilt was redundant? I just can't really think of many situations where I wouldn't want to hit in front first; if I want to use it on someone standing behind me instant-turnaround side-b, or pivot grab/anything is going to do the trick anyways. On an aerial opponent, it doesn't matter as much, but with attacks like dtilt at Roy's disposal you're likely to have them in the range of directly up to up and in front of you anyways. A possible exception would be an uthrow DI'd behind Roy, so there's that.
Either way, it takes some getting used to, but it's nice to actually have some hitstun on it. I do think it's too early for yelling changeitchangeitchangeit, since I haven't gotten much of a chance to try using it. Just my first impressions.
Edit: it's also occurred to me that a possible strength might be hitting your opponent later in the animation, leaving less endlag during their hitstun and allowing for a better followup. I'm not sure if that applies as much, since Roy's hitstun is a little more workable, but it's a possibility.