Tier List Speculation

[Nausicaa]

Because LucasssssssssS F-tilted you before you could de-materialize and re-materialize for the trillionth time in a given moment and that left you stockless a few googleplexes of materialization later.

Waddles should be able to DD Grab.

 

[NightShadow6]

So are we at a point too where all characters are viable?

Everyone can do some pretty nasty stuff too each other.

 

[Nail.exe]

Haven't really been keeping up with this thread, but:

I'm not so sure I'd go so far as to call Pikachu viable.

 

[| Kailex |]

All characters are good, people just need to get better

 

[ItalianStallion]

Is there anyone that still thinks Dedede is beast, and is there any reference I can see/watch/read to study?
Been asking for a while, but nobody has answered... Checked the 'best of each character' thread and nothing unexpected or interesting outside of re-confirmation of this.
Any insight please?

I would argue that DDD is pretty darn good. Sure, approaching with him is difficult, and characters like Squirtle can dance around him all day, but he has one of the hardest punish games in PM.
Any character that has a good combo weight (i.e. Ike, Link, etc.) are pretty much fodder for a smart DDD who is willing to take risks. DDD can go DEEP. He can chase far and low off the stage and still make it back. And you can guarantee kills on plenty of characters with a "dropzone" fair to a quick turnaround bair to a ledgegrab and edgehog. D-tilt is a very good move that has a variety of uses. I almost exclusively use it over f-tilt. Nair chains to fairs are really reliable in certain matchups. And uair and dair are really good harassers.

DDD is very match-up dependent. If the character is difficult to edgeguard (Pit, Peach, etc.), then his kills will have to come from solid hits. But usually a well landed fair at high-ish percents is enough to kill. Also, his grab game is huge for his punishes, so if he has a hard time grabbing them (Fox, Squirtle, etc.), he will be in trouble.

DDD's recovery is really bad if the DDD player has to use his up-b. The opponent almost has a free edgeguard. But waddle-dashing can help cover his recovery. In general, waddle-dashing is probably going to end up being a must at high-level play. It's DDD's only way to get in or out fast.

Neutral b is a forgotten about move. It can be used as a surprise against an unsuspecting opponent for a "DDD-cide".

Down b is SUPER GOOD. It comes out extremely fast, and can almost be used like a high power jab. I personally have used it for standing ledgeguards (The hitbox is deceptively big), shield pressure (d-tilt to jab to jab2 to down b), and as a general follow up to a majority of moves. Also, charging it is underrated. It's kind of hard to avoid once fully charged.

Bair is the go-to neutral game tool when not throwing out waddles or fishing for fair hits. L canceled bairs to quick turnaround grabs can have large rewards when not expected.

Oh, and hard reads with up-smash or dash attack are super satisfying to pull off when they connect.

DDD has a lot going for him. He is definitely viable to win a tournament. However, he has the worst approach in the game, so it's no wonder why he is so low on everybody's tier lists. Basically this is not me disputing his spot on peoples respective tier lists, but rather making sure that people know that the character isn't garbage, or not viable. It's hard to call someone with a punish game like DDD unviable.

Pros: Extremely potent punish game which includes power, range, edgeguards, and the tools to take risks. Very high rewards on a majority of moves.
Cons: Big combo-able target, bad approach, high risk/laggy moves

 

[B.W.]

He does indeed get massive rewards off of any mistake the opponent might make and off of any grab really.

Problem is, he's not hard to punish either. All of his moves, even his jab, have a noticeable amount of recovery and most of his other moves also had a fair amount of startup as well. Combine this with the fact that he's heavy and big kind of makes it so anyone can punish him as hard as he can punish them.

I'd love if they made some of his moves safer in various ways so that he keeps his current heavy punisher aspect while also allowing him to poke his opponent to help try to force them into making mistakes.

Dedede is a way better doubles character, imo.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So are we at a point too where all characters are viable?

Everyone can do some pretty nasty stuff too each other.

Nooooooope. I'm afraid not. There are a lot of characters that, once people get accustomed to phasing out noticeably suboptimal stuff from their play, will be obviously head-and-shoulders above the rest of the cast. Platform fighters are notoriously difficult to balance, and ones trying to imitate Melee are gonna have a worse time than most.

Waddles should be able to DD Grab.

It would certainly make them more viable...

 

[esoterics]

Nooooooope. I'm afraid not. There are a lot of characters that, once people get accustomed to phasing out noticeably suboptimal stuff from their play, will be obviously head-and-shoulders above the rest of the cast. Platform fighters are notoriously difficult to balance, and ones trying to imitate Melee are gonna have a worse time than most.

The PBMR can patch in balance tweaks if they feel the need to, and I'd say that PM is still far more balanced than Melee or Brawl.

Personally, I think there should be two teir lists. One for 1v1, and the other for 2v2. For example, Jigs is high tier in doubles but she falls a few tiers if playing a 1v1.

 

[Juushichi]

I wish doubles was developed enough that we could really make a call for that.

Maybe at majors we should have doubles exhibitions? This for just about every smash game, honestly.

Use doubles as a big showcase event maybe? Maybe something like a Curleh Mustache of doubles?

Contrary to Reflex's opinions, I think the game is pretty well balanced for the most part. There are going to be some 3-7's/35-65's. It's going to be inevitable since the metagame is going to value some skills more than others and some characters will be stronger than others. PM will find a good balance ultimately, but this sort of thing will probably happen nonetheless.

 

[Nausicaa]

Doubles is too dynamic and complex to really make a tier-list for...

If anything, for both singles and doubles, a 'good' character is essentially what we want, and 'good' meaning we can't place them at all.

After seeing a lot of these tier lists, everyone seems to have a good idea who's in S - A tier. B - C/D Tier no one can come to a conclusion.

This basically.

The only thing of value to know, is who is 'too good' and who is 'not good enough'
Nothing else really matters. Who's too good and who's no good enough?

 

[9bit]

The only thing of value to know, is who is 'too good' and who is 'not good enough'
Nothing else really matters. Who's too good and who's not good enough?

Absolutely completely agreed.

I've been trying to throw together a sort of tier list and that's the conclusion I came to. Just separate the characters into 3 groups:

1. Very (or Too) Good - should be left alone / nerfed slightly
2. Fine - should probably be left alone to let their metas (metae?) develop for a while
3. Not Good Enough - still need work / buffs / tweaks

And the specific orders within those groups don't really matter much at this stage.

I think right now we're seeing a good bell curve. Most of the characters are in the Fine category with a few outliers who fall into categories 1 and 3.

 

[KayB]

I wish doubles was developed enough that we could really make a call for that.

Maybe at majors we should have doubles exhibitions? This for just about every smash game, honestly.

Use doubles as a big showcase event maybe? Maybe something like a Curleh Mustache of doubles?

Contrary to Reflex's opinions, I think the game is pretty well balanced for the most part. There are going to be some 3-7's/35-65's. It's going to be inevitable since the metagame is going to value some skills more than others and some characters will be stronger than others. PM will find a good balance ultimately, but this sort of thing will probably happen nonetheless.

I've said this in a few other places, but I always thought a doubles exclusive major would be nice.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I didn't say the game was imbalanced in general, but I think we currently have a case that is similar to Brawl where the best set of characters are head-and-shoulders above the rest, and then the game is plenty balanced beyond that.

 

[Viceversa96]

Some notes:

• I think S Tier very likely has the correct top 4 characters, but the order isn't clear at this point. Any of them could easily turn out to be the best.
• Divisions between tiers are pretty arbitrary, but I tried to split them where I perceived a larger gap in character strength.
• My certainty regarding the placement of the characters generally decreases as you move down the list. I'd consider everything below A Tier highly questionable, because most of them have less tournament exposure (in 2.6b) and I just find it more difficult to evaluate differences between more mediocre characters. Of course the metagame is barely starting to develop, so there's a decent chance that any given placing is incorrect.
• A (?) indicates that I am particularly unsure about that character's placement because I have not seen much footage of the character and/or have little experience playing as or against that character. (??) is just for Squirtle because I have hardly any idea how he will end up being played once his metagame develops (but obviously I question his long term competitive potential since I put him in such a low spot).
• Toon Link needs to be buffed.

S Tier

1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Lucas
4. Wolf

A+ Tier
5. Sheik
6. Peach
7. Ivysaur
8. Marth
9. Charizard

A Tier
10. Snake
11. Meta Knight
12. Pikachu
13. Wario(?)
14. Ness
15. Mario

A- Tier
16. Ike(?)
17. Pit
18. Jigglypuff
19. Captain Falcon
20. Lucario
21. Ganondorf
22. Game and Watch

B+ Tier
23. Zelda
24. Bowser(?)
25. Dedede
26. Zero Suit Samus(?)
27. ROB
28. Diddy(?)
29. Luigi
30. Donkey Kong

B Tier
31. Link(?)
32. Squirtle(??)
33. Sonic(?)

C Tier
34. Toon Link


Our Boy
Roy

I would put Mario and Meta Knight in A+ there are both really ****ing good.

 

[metroid1117]

I still have yet to be convinced from first-hand experience that Mario is in the top 8 of the cast... are there any videos or results of Mario doing incredibly well or are people still theorizing what can happen if Mario were to be picked up by a phenomenal player?

 

[Minor Pandemic]

I didn't say the game was imbalanced in general, but I think we currently have a case that is similar to Brawl where the best set of characters are head-and-shoulders above the rest, and then the game is plenty balanced beyond that.

Can I ask why you say this? I'm trash at this game and in no position to disagree, I'm just curious.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The neutral position (where both characters are on the ground and capable of potentially using any of their options) is incredibly important for the flow of the match. Your chances count on being able to safely swing at the opponent, being able to bait out an opponent's move in order to get in, having good hitbox placement to "beat" opponents' attacks, etc. It is largely affected by dashdancing (which allows you to mask a bait OR an approach unpredictably, as well as just to move away from a situation). Speed has a big effect on this, as it's hard to bait or be unpredictable when an opponent is twice as fast as you. Long story short, though, some characters are way better in that position than their opponents.

Marth has an incredible distance on his dashdance and strong tools out of it, which allows him to change direction and play the poking/spacing game more seamlessly than most characters. Ivysaur has Razor Leaf and huge hitboxes, both of which severely limit an opponent's ability to move as they please. Falco has a gun that creates stage control wherever and whenever he wants.

It's certainly more complicated than that overall, but, without droning on, a character's ability to work well in the neutral game is the most important thing, IMO, and I feel that the best characters do it noticeably better than the rest when playing optimally. People like to say, "But look at X placing well with Y character, who doesn't fit your criteria!" In a vast majority of those cases, I can pretty much guarantee that opponents weren't abusing what said character is lacking. It's still a relatively new game, and as time goes on and people get more experience with it, my point will become significantly more apparent.

 

[Sarix]

I agree with the majority of Reflex's post. While the current cast is much more viable than they were in their Melee and Brawl incarnations their are still noticeable gaps between tiers. Mobility plays a much larger role in a character's options and ability to control neutral in Smash compared to other fighters which typically have more homogenized character mobility.

A good example I can think of is Link vs Falcon. While Link zone Falcon, but his ability to control Falcon's mobility is what really affects the MU as Falcon can more freely pressure, bait, take control of neutral with his overall high mobility against Link's overall slower options. The same thing can be said with Link vs the Spacies, and how their mobility combined with their other tools allow them to quickly take over neutral and press the advantage. This doesn't mean Link is a bad character, he is a very versatile character, but against fast characters like Spacies, Sheik, and Falcon, his options to limit their mobility or break out of pressure are not diverse enough to quickly gain control in neutral.

I think focusing on making characters as functional as possible in neutral without making them polarized is a good approach to design, especially since neutral in Smash is not under the same restrictions as the typical 2D fighter. It will just take time since Smash has less rigid situations as well.

 

[\Apples]

In no particular order between each other: Falco, Fox, Ivysaur, Marth, Meta Knight, Peach, Pit, Sheik, Wario, Wolf. Mobility is the name of the game, as always. The number of options covered by all these characters in most situations, particularly in neutral, is pretty astounding. I waver a little on Pit and Meta Knight (but not that much), and I wish I knew more about 2.6 Diddy so I could give him a fair shake.

Snake isn't that great, Squirtle is garbage, Toon Link is better than the average list makes him out to be (bomb options are sooooooo good even if a good chunk of the rest of the character isn't), Sonic's still above-average, and Jigglypuff is mediocre.

My top 10 looks almost idential to yours. I'd probably put Diddy in there though. Maybe for MK.

When the squirtle champion rises from the ashes, I will look down and smile.

Be on the lookout for Vidjogamer's Squirtle. There's a chance it'll be appearing at the next Gameclucks if anyone brings a recording setup, though nobody can really beat his ZSS up here in Seattle so he may not even switch. His Squirtle is hella good. I used to think Squirtle was trash too but he's definitely not, he's just whack.

 

[The_NZA]

The neutral position (where both characters are on the ground and capable of potentially using any of their options) is incredibly important for the flow of the match. Your chances count on being able to safely swing at the opponent, being able to bait out an opponent's move in order to get in, having good hitbox placement to "beat" opponents' attacks, etc. It is largely affected by dashdancing (which allows you to mask a bait OR an approach unpredictably, as well as just to move away from a situation). Speed has a big effect on this, as it's hard to bait or be unpredictable when an opponent is twice as fast as you. Long story short, though, some characters are way better in that position than their opponents.

Marth has an incredible distance on his dashdance and strong tools out of it, which allows him to change direction and play the poking/spacing game more seamlessly than most characters. Ivysaur has Razor Leaf and huge hitboxes, both of which severely limit an opponent's ability to move as they please. Falco has a gun that creates stage control wherever and whenever he wants.

It's certainly more complicated than that overall, but, without droning on, a character's ability to work well in the neutral game is the most important thing, IMO, and I feel that the best characters do it noticeably better than the rest when playing optimally. People like to say, "But look at X placing well with Y character, who doesn't fit your criteria!" In a vast majority of those cases, I can pretty much guarantee that opponents weren't abusing what said character is lacking. It's still a relatively new game, and as time goes on and people get more experience with it, my point will become significantly more apparent.

I COMPLETELY agree with this. It's like with Ness: you will see Ness players wreck house on people with crazy aggression. But when they play against a patient ivysaur, Marth, or even Link who just outranges and controls space, suddenly Ness is pretty crippled.

Also, I completely disagree with the idea that this game has to have 7-3 or 65-35 matchups. Plenty of characters that currently have these problems can be modified not to.

 

[Juushichi]

Both of those MUs are reasonable.

I don't believe it's possible to have all 100-something matchups within 6-4. Even if you use a liberal "MU rating", this seems very farfetched and a bit naive. Not that I think the PMBR are going to let characters fall to the wayside if they can help it.

 

[Oro?!]

I want Vidjo vids...

 

[Strong Badam]

need me some vidjos

 

[The_NZA]

Both of those MUs are reasonable.

I don't believe it's possible to have all 100-something matchups within 6-4. Even if you use a liberal "MU rating", this seems very farfetched and a bit naive. Not that I think the PMBR are going to let characters fall to the wayside if they can help it.

What exactly is your basis to believe this? Have you already exhausted every sensible buff to the bottom tier? I think it's possible to design this game so that every character can make it to a finals with good competition. And I don't think you have to sacrifice design quality to get there.

 

[Viceversa96]

I still have yet to be convinced from first-hand experience that Mario is in the top 8 of the cast... are there any videos or results of Mario doing incredibly well or are people still theorizing what can happen if Mario were to be picked up by a phenomenal player?

Look at the tournament Archives. I know Mario isn't represented much in tournaments but when he does show up he places high. I think Boss has placed 3rd at Thanks For Playing as Mario recently. Mario has so much potential to be unlocked but because he isn't represented much I can understand your observation.

 

[The_NZA]

He was the only one....

who stood a chance to Wizzy's 2.5 Sonic. And only in the hands of Hungrybox. Who proved without a shadow of a doubt that he knows how to fight facing forward.

 

[esoterics]

He was the only one....

who stood a chance to Wizzy's 2.5 Sonic. And only in the hands of Hungrybox. Who proved without a shadow of a doubt that he knows how to fight facing forward.

I was about to post this myself. The link to that match is here:
http://youtu.be/waecagfyJ7M

 

[\Apples]

I want Vidjo vids...

need me some vidjos

He's as slippery as Squirtle. We don't have a recording setup and getting him to go to tournaments is a... delicate process. Been working on this one for months guys. lol

 

[metroid1117]

Look at the tournament Archives. I know Mario isn't represented much in tournaments but when he does show up he places high. I think Boss has placed 3rd at Thanks For Playing as Mario recently. Mario has so much potential to be unlocked but because he isn't represented much I can understand your observation.

I used to manage the Tournament Results Archive, so I kinda know how characters are doing . I know Boss has a good Mario, but he's generally very inactive to the point where Mario hardly has notable results. If we're going by results alone, then I'd argue that Yomi, Ace, and I pushed Charizard to high tier back in 2.5, since I have relatively decent placings and both Yomi and Ace have consistently placed within the top 3, if not winning the tournaments they attend. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I'm just pretty surprised that a character with neither relatively little tournament success nor video evidence has been consistently ranked so highly in people's tier lists, and thus I'm skeptical about the validity of that character's placement.

 

[Strong Badam]

looks like im winning the next rolla monthly with mario brian

 

[metroid1117]

looks like im winning the next rolla monthly with mario brian

Bring it .

 

[Deleted member]

Who proved without a shadow of a doubt that he knows how to fight facing forward.

statistical noise imo

lol

 

[Viceversa96]

I used to manage the Tournament Results Archive, so I kinda know how characters are doing . I know Boss has a good Mario, but he's generally very inactive to the point where Mario hardly has notable results. If we're going by results alone, then I'd argue that Yomi, Ace, and I pushed Charizard to high tier back in 2.5, since I have relatively decent placings and both Yomi and Ace have consistently placed within the top 3, if not winning the tournaments they attend. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I'm just pretty surprised that a character with neither relatively little tournament success nor video evidence has been consistently ranked so highly in people's tier lists, and thus I'm skeptical about the validity of that character's placement.

Because it's ****ing Mario lol. But on a serious note I can understand your skepticism. But when Mario IS represented. He places really high. I think the lowest Mario's placed in a tournament when he does show up is 6th or 5th. But I really do understand where you're coming from metroid1117

 

[NeonApophis]

In no particular order between each other: Falco, Fox, Ivysaur, Marth, Meta Knight, Peach, Pit, Sheik, Wario, Wolf. Mobility is the name of the game, as always. The number of options covered by all these characters in most situations, particularly in neutral, is pretty astounding.

Why no Lucas? He has excellent ground mobility due to his run speed and great wavedash. Maybe the best aerial mobility, since he can control his momentum so well with magnets, DJC, and an air dodge that he can attack out of. His moves are also fast enough to cover tons of options and he has a pretty good projectile that easily sets up for his amazing combos if it connects.

 

[Nguz95]

Why no Lucas? He has excellent ground mobility due to his run speed and great wavedash. Maybe the best aerial mobility, since he can control his momentum so well with magnets, DJC, and an air dodge that he can attack out of. His moves are also fast enough to cover tons of options and he has a pretty good projectile that easily sets up for his amazing combos if it connects.

Unfortunately Lucas is a bit of a Falco lite. He is super frail (his recovery=no bueno), and his neutral game control isn't as amazing al Falco's. He is, however, one of the few PM characters that is imo close to perfecfion in terms of design. As we see his metagame evolve I guarentee he'll move up the tier list, but for the moment he is a little underrated.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I think Lucas is above-average, but I wouldn't say Top 8 material. He isn't able to just force himself into/force an opponent out of a situation like the other characters can.

 

[NeonApophis]

Unfortunately Lucas is a bit of a Falco lite. He is super frail (his recovery=no bueno), and his neutral game control isn't as amazing al Falco's. He is, however, one of the few PM characters that is imo close to perfecfion in terms of design. As we see his metagame evolve I guarentee he'll move up the tier list, but for the moment he is a little underrated.

Uh, Lucas's recovery is drastically better than Falco's. He can come back from much farther away, and because his recovery is non-linear he is less susceptible to being gimped. He can also airdodge multiple times in different directions by tether cancelling, which lets him move while being invincible. PK Thunder isn't that great, but it can only improve his recovery since you won't be using it if you can successfully tether instead. This isn't to say that Lucas's recovery is all that good compared to the rest of the cast, but Falco's is just so short and predictable in a lot of situations that I think Lucas is superior in this category.

I can agree that Falco's lasers provide a significant edge in the neutral game that is not matched by Lucas's pkf, but in terms of close range pressure I think Lucas is already pretty close to Falco and could end up being superior as his pressure game develops. I'm not going to write up a lecture on Lucas's pressure options, but he definitely has more complex pressure options than anyone else at this point. Obviously complexity does not necessarily mean that his options are good, but it does mean that it will take longer for us to optimize his pressure. Given that it's already really good, there is certainly potential for his pressure to end up being the best.

I do still think Falco is probably better than Lucas, but my certainty on that is relatively low (~60%) and I think the gap between them is pretty small.

 

[~Frozen~]

I'm surprised to see everyone thinking so highly of Lucas lately. It only seems like days ago that people thought he was only average xD

What's the general opinion on Lucario/Charizard in 2.6? I think they are certainly capable of holding their own against the majority of the cast, save for a few select matchups. Having great ground mobility is certainly a plus combined with their ability to cause massive damage when landing a hit, but they suffer a bit from good zoning and projectile usage.

 

[Archangel]

I used to manage the Tournament Results Archive, so I kinda know how characters are doing . I know Boss has a good Mario, but he's generally very inactive to the point where Mario hardly has notable results. If we're going by results alone, then I'd argue that Yomi, Ace, and I pushed Charizard to high tier back in 2.5, since I have relatively decent placings and both Yomi and Ace have consistently placed within the top 3, if not winning the tournaments they attend. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I'm just pretty surprised that a character with neither relatively little tournament success nor video evidence has been consistently ranked so highly in people's tier lists, and thus I'm skeptical about the validity of that character's placement.

How do you run the PM tournament archive and be actively involved in the PM scene for as long as you have and not know how well Mario can/has done? Ya lost me there bro, Broski, Broseph, Han Brolo, Broseiden, Brofessor, Brotato chip, abroham Lincoln, Brorack, Brobama, Broseph Gordon-Levitt.

ok I'm done...

also there is video evidence for Mario placing high since 2.1 I'm just too lazy to dig it up but...c'mon Metroid if all else fails just youtube it, or seach videos from your own archive and i'm sure things will click.

I think Lucas is above-average, but I wouldn't say Top 8 material. He isn't able to just force himself into/force an opponent out of a situation like the other characters can.

give him less start-up on his Side-B and he'll be Goddamn it tier like Fox/Falco or possibly worse.

Anyways, you've never needed to force yourself in to be in the top 8. At least not in the same manner that Fox/Falco have. Look at melee's top 8. Tell me that all of them can force themselves in anytime they want.

I'm surprised to see everyone thinking so highly of Lucas lately. It only seems like days ago that people thought he was only average xD

I remember the same thing happened with Sonic in 2.1/2.5 as well as 2.1 Lucario. It seems to be a trend in the smash community, Although I'll say it's not nearly as slow as melee's scene once was. Puff/Peach aren't top characters and shouldn't be winning national/international tournaments was the dominating school of thought in Melee's scene for a LONG time. I took crap for overrating those characters for years. Only time can tell though, perhaps Lucas will turn out to be a fraud.

What's the general opinion on Lucario/Charizard in 2.6? I think they are certainly capable of holding their own against the majority of the cast, save for a few select matchups. Having great ground mobility is certainly a plus combined with their ability to cause massive damage when landing a hit, but they suffer a bit from good zoning and projectile usage.

Lucario is unique in style, but...I don't know if he's unique enough to warrent playing in from 2.5 onward unless you just want to take on the challenge of pushing him as far as you can. Kinda like the Melee players who stuck to characters like Roy, Zelda, and Ness. Lucario in 2.1 was top class but his current incarnation doesn't flow as well and his approach is and always was kinda predicable and limited. If the opponent plays the neutral position like they should Lucario's viability goes to hell.

Charizard is kinda underrated and therefore underused. His lack of jump out of glide also turned some hopefuls off but if anyone is being slept on it's Charizard. He's one of the fastest grounded characters in the game despite being very big, He's limited in the neutral position but with good spacing he can be extremely dangerous. His combo game feels kinda meh-ish but with the ability to end a stock with single blows he doesn't half to combo.

My 2 cents on the characters.

 

[trash?]

I'd say a pretty important factor in it is the common knowledge of PK kids' techskill is getting higher and higher. in particular, I noticed that this got popular on /r/smashbros recently

pullin a theory directly out of my beautiful avatar here: the meta development of PK kids' tech skills is very similar to the spacies in melee, and I think people are wondering if they'll go down the same road spacies did.