Tier List Speculation

[TheReflexWonder]

Anyways, you've never needed to force yourself in to be in the top 8. At least not in the same manner that Fox/Falco have. Look at melee's top 8. Tell me that all of them can force themselves in anytime they want.

S: Fox, Falco, Jigglypuff, Sheik
A: Marth, Peach, Captain Falcon
B: Ice Climbers

The characters that can't force themselves in are very good at preventing opponents from being able to "play their own game." Peach, Marth, and Jigglypuff have an extreme set of tools (compared to the rest of the cast, at least) that allows them to work around their lower speed/mobility as a result (and other factors, of course, but, that is a big one). Whether it's about yours or your opponent's, mobility and how threatening you are in relevant positions (based on your hitboxes and being able to stuff your opponent's) is still the name of the game. Their ability to make people do the things they don't want to in neutral position is the primary reason why all the ****ty characters in Melee are ****ty characters in Melee.

 

[Nausicaa]

He was the only one....

who stood a chance to Wizzy's 2.5 Sonic. And only in the hands of Hungrybox. Who proved without a shadow of a doubt that he knows how to fight facing forward.

LOL Facing Forward, nice.
Mario can cover himself really well with constant hit-boxes, which is effective at this stage, given Sonic can't punish developed-Melee-Falcon-style, or he would've been crushed for it later in meta-game. It's essentially the same idea though. If you commit to anything vs Falcon at a top level, he'll hit you for it, and Mario for that reason turns to non-committal maneuvers and actions, trying to bait Falcon into attacking when Mario is ready for it. Poor Mario gets limited like this as things move on, Fox, Marth, Pika, etc. Be super non-committal, then mix in the effective high-hit-box content when you can pressure, then back off because your mid-range (the NEUTRAL GAME) is basically a phase of the game you have to try and null out between the strengthening positions, and it will happen in time with Sonic/Wolf/Lucas/etc too.

Unfortunately Lucas is a bit of a Falco lite. He is super frail (his recovery=no bueno), and his neutral game control isn't as amazing al Falco's. He is, however, one of the few PM characters that is imo close to perfecfion in terms of design. As we see his metagame evolve I guarentee he'll move up the tier list, but for the moment he is a little underrated.

I don't understand this about Tier-Lists. It's supposed to be about 'goodness' at the epitome of it. Not 'at the moment' or anything. At least, that might be why I'm confused when people don't pay attention to meta-game detailing.
Seriously, 'underated at the moment' is a complete oxy-moron when considering that he'll move up 'THE' Tier-List. 'THE' Tier-List is stagnant, as it is, the Tier-ListSSS are the speculative lists, so maybe it's just your wording.
At best, someone can try to discover the details of the game, and make a list closer to what the tiers are. Will be = Tier list. Figure out how to see that, and everything else falls into play (on a/'the' list).

I COMPLETELY agree with this. It's like with Ness: you will see Ness players wreck house on people with crazy aggression. But when they play against a patient ivysaur, Marth, or even Link who just outranges and controls space, suddenly Ness is pretty crippled.

Ness is fine against Ivy. I think I saw something with K9 against an Ivy/Dedede player that completely confirmed some of my conceptualizing on it. Ness can do the crazy aggression stuff, but it's more holy than Falco pressure, and is only possible because of a a lot of sloppy play/people don't know when they can just WD back and grab the bugger so they get pressured at all.
I don't mean to say he's campy and not aggro. I'm just trying to point out that saying his ability to deal with space-controllers is crippling, and his ability to do aggression is crazy, is a little hasty.

I still have yet to be convinced from first-hand experience that Mario is in the top 8 of the cast... are there any videos or results of Mario doing incredibly well or are people still theorizing what can happen if Mario were to be picked up by a phenomenal player?

This (and your following post) could be answered by the meta-game development related discussion regarding Shiek about 5 pages ago. tl;dr of it, he has lots of tools that make him seem very versatile and universally good, but gets limited and crammed into a tedious box of spacing when things fiddle out into BnB/what actually works at a top level.

PKF is overused. (out-dated like 2.1)
He's way too fast, ranged, and mobile to have a worse mid-ranged Neutral game than Falco. Aggressively-passive, constantly threatening while literally committing to NOTHING. I've yet to see a Lucas be smooth though, even the Lucas boards are filled with ridged movements and jagged turns. Might as well be Falcon's D-throwing and waiting for hit-stun to end before attempting a follow-up. The meta-game is long with this awkward ball of zapping.

Edit: Figured I'd quote this after the last paragraph there.

Whether it's about yours or your opponent's, mobility and how threatening you are in relevant positions (based on your hitboxes and being able to stuff your opponent's) is still the name of the game. Their ability to make people do the things they don't want to in neutral position is the primary reason why all the ****ty characters in Melee are ****ty characters in Melee.

So why no Lucas?

PS: Those vids are barely scratching the surface of what Lucas has been capable of since day 1 2.1, he's just awkward for people to pick up and play without seriously conditioning themselves into a new mode of excessive tech-skill, like the tech-skill spam era of Melee, but all over again with a smaller window and population.

 

[Scythe]

actually lucas is more like a wolf lite

 

[Nausicaa]

I'm surprised to see everyone thinking so highly of Lucas lately. It only seems like days ago that people thought he was only average xD

What's the general opinion on Lucario/Charizard in 2.6?

Char is godly.

lol Lucas being Wolf lite. True in regards to the ability people have when it comes to learning new stuff on a mass public level.

I'm still speculating this month 1 2.1 tier list.
Aside from a few HIGHLY controversial picks (Luigi/Pika/Ike), and a few MASSIVE changes I'd make (Wario/Char/GW) my thoughts on a 2.6 list (AND 2.5 really) wouldn't be far off from this. I actually wouldn't be surprised if the Tier-List turns out to be this. Once those few changes (Luigi/Pika/Ike/Wario/Char/GW) are applied that is.
Fox + Luigi + Peach + Pika + Sheilda
DK + Falco + Lucas + Marth + Pit + Sheik + Snake + Sonic + Wolf
Falcon + Jiggs + Link + Lucario + Mario + TL + Wario + Zelda
Bowser + Char + Dedede + Ganon + GW + Ike + Ness

Anyone partially agree/comment on this?
Usually my thoughts are way off-base from the norm, but this isn't really that far-fetched, is it?

 

[NeonApophis]

I'm surprised to see everyone thinking so highly of Lucas lately. It only seems like days ago that people thought he was only average xD

What's the general opinion on Lucario/Charizard in 2.6? I think they are certainly capable of holding their own against the majority of the cast, save for a few select matchups. Having great ground mobility is certainly a plus combined with their ability to cause massive damage when landing a hit, but they suffer a bit from good zoning and projectile usage.

I've been saying that Lucas is amazing for several months now. I'm surprised there aren't a bunch of people complaining about how broken he is (although I've seen lots of other people feel this way about their new favorite character as well, so I'm guessing people are somewhat inclined to overrate characters they use frequently).

I think Charizard is very good. His range is obscene, and his combos are very strong and hard to escape because his moves link so well. I've played a lot against Falcoty's Charizard, which I'm almost certain is currently the best Charizard in AZ (although he is mostly retired from competitve smash and doesn't go to tournaments very often, so I'm not sure that there are any recent videos of him). His main weakness is that he is a very large target, but everything is else is quite good. Besides combos, he is very mobile with good ground speed and fly, his moves are surprisingly fast, his recovery is excellent despite being somewhat slow making him susceptible to gimps in some situations, he is pretty heavy to resist dying off the sides, and has lots of good ways to kill opponents. His grabs are also really good, which makes up for his weakness in pressuring opponents through frame advantage, since he can just grab you if you shield (and he is pretty good at threatening you to the point where you need to shield, especially since his moves cover so much space).

Lucario is not quite as good. I also play Lucario, and some of my videos against Mizuki got pretty popular, but I think he's just too weak at the neutral game, and his combos aren't that amazing compared to other characters (certainly not to the point where they make up for his poor neutral game). His pressure just isn't all that safe, and the reward for actually getting in doesn't really make up for the risks involved. This analysis isn't too deep, but I view this as the main issue with Lucario. If he has a slightly faster teleport to let him be a little safer/trickier while pressuring he could be really good again. He's still not a bad character and can definitely be played well, but he is outclassed by a lot of other characters at this point.

I'd say a pretty important factor in it is the common knowledge of PK kids' techskill is getting higher and higher. in particular, I noticed that this got popular on /r/smashbros recently

pullin a theory directly out of my beautiful avatar here: the meta development of PK kids' tech skills is very similar to the spacies in melee, and I think people are wondering if they'll go down the same road spacies did.

Yeah, I had been waiting for a while to record some good 2.6b Lucas matches to show people how good he is, so I'm glad people enjoyed that video. I have a lot more matches that you can find on Calabrel's channel or the Lucas video thread if anyone is interested. Lucas is definitely the most technical character in the game right now, which gives him a lot of potential (and makes him super fun to play as). I agree very much that Lucas is similar to spacies in terms of how he will develop. When people ask me about my Lucas, I usually say something along the lines of yeah, I can play him pretty well, but that's like saying that people could play Fox well back in 2004. Lucas's metagame is probably the furthest from being well-developed right now, so it'll be interesting to see how much better he gets.

 

[Nausicaa]

LOL Neon. Awesome. I bet over half of the sentences you posted in that post, are word-for-word things I've said on all 3 of those characters.

Nice, glad to have people on the same page once in a while, and so distinctly too.


Edit: To elaborate on something.
I think Charizard's D-Smash is actually pretty stupid. I told my bro to just WL on platforms and D-Smash when tech-chasing there, as there's not much reason to do anything else. First thing he does off a jab-missed tech, D-Smash > WL D-Smash > WL-Dsmash > U-air Up-B kill of the top of Rumble Falls on a Wolf.
Stupid character in a stupid match-up with a stupid move.

I'd love to see some extra start up on it. At least so it's no like 'if you try it, you'll get it, if you get it, it's a kill' stupid. Make Char have to make the read, since it's so easy to act accordingly off any tech option/no tech with that simple maneuver. Or at least able to DI it 15ish degrees in a directly... lol
Kind of harsh to call it stupid (it's BEAST too), but really... sure he's a smart player, but I can't even remember the last time I saw him use Char before that match, and that looked WAY too easy/mindless.

Spoiler

MY TIER LIST 2.6b
Quickly thrown together (in the last 30 minutes on Notepad!) because I want to get one done before 3.0 since I missed doing any for 2.5 and this is fun and hilarious and interesting to speculate.

All characters tied within the tiers.
Bold = I have a hunch they're ever so slightly better than the others in their tier.
Italic = I have a hunch they're ever so slightly worse than the others in their tier.
() = Developing part of their game that plays a factor in my hunch.
[] = Change I would like to see the long-term results of for them in the future.

1 (barely out of 1.5, but enough that I don't suspect they'll be worse than most in that tier)
Peach - Lucas - Fox - Falco - Wario

1.5 (could be 1, could be 2, right now my best guess might as well be in a RNG)

- Char (Touch of Death efficiency, I like Up-B OOS) - Diddy (the DD, SH Aerial, and Tilt mix in Neutral) - Ivy (both sides/ends of the off-stage game) - Luigi (Neutral maneuvering precision to make his tools work) - Pit (depth and process, both in ToDing and Neutral) - MK (ToDing off offensive high-aggressive poke-based pressure)
- Everyone not mentioned is in the middle of all the characters mentioned in this tier...
- Ike (risk-vs-reward trading with highly aggressive play) - Jigg (aggressive precision play against passive-aggressive play) - Link (ToD efficiency from connected hits when dealing with aggression) - Sonic(precision and efficiency when playing passive-aggressively) - TL (coverage against aggressive play into ToDing) - ZSS (ToDing)

2
- Bowser (naturally polarizing, dealing with aggressively-passive play, overly reliant on out-matching it with his own aggressively-passive play)
[Down-B JC-able earlier in the jump > use as a counter of sorts that keeps him functionally mobile, which is crucial for him in these situations + using armor feature functionally]
- Squirt (Neutral maneuvering precision to make his tools work, ToDing off mid-% conversions without often necessary resets, or at least having efficient process afterwards when it's needed)
[allow the recovery/hop after-hit on Side-B to be slightly more controllable > can be more liberal with his best convert-to-finisher]
- Zelda (aggressively-passive play, overly reliant on spaced ground attacks + Grab mixes with low mobility/unreliable distance game overly focused on)
[Side-B Fireballs to travel further initially and slow in speed when traveling further away > more accuracy and speed in close-quarters for functionality of the distance game, without losing longer distance game]
- Ganon (same as Bowser, though instead is overly reliant on the simple SH Aerial + faked into Aerial Side-B/WL > Grab mix in Neutral for it)
[less recovery on Dash Attack/Aerial Side-B > less commitment on attempts to catch opponents in this situation/faster active hit-box or more range on Up-B > for OOS behind for more interesting dynamics in vs Ganon match-ups]
- Lucario (Overall Neutral without Aura Charge, or how effective a difference with AC is vs without to make up for it in terms of ToD and sustaining presence in Neutral once triggered)
[stats slightly altered to Crouch Cancel better > more passive-aggressive options in Neutral to transition, counter, and convert off of + STEEL TYPE DUH/every-so-slightly faster Down-B, maybe a frame or 2 start-up faster]
- ROB (effective aggressively-passive play in Neutral that can convert to a ToD or a process for it, overly reliant on precision to position tedious/risky tools with limits on what's universally rewarding)
[Somewhere from 10 to 20 degree up and down angling on Aerial Side-B > precision positioning that still takes the same commitment > requires repeated connections to gain reward, this is the core of his theme]

3
D3 (dealing with high aggression or passive-aggressive play... overly reliant on too few tools and can't be applied in a way that drastically changes functional play-style extensively enough to match/compared to all others > may not need to, but may end up far too polarizing to function if so)
[More BKB on several attacks, like F-Tilt > More presence on the stage against all forms of opposition play-style outside of directly converting hits in Neutral that lead to his fairly able ToDs and stock taking processes]


THERE

I did it!



Edit: Red?

Revising this into the format the last page was suggesting.

MIGHT BE BETTER THAN FINE TIER
Peach - Lucas - Fox - Falco - Wario - Char - Diddy - Ivy

MIGHT BE WORSE THAN FINE TIER
Jigg - TL - Bowser - Squirt - Zelda - Ganon - Lucario - ROB - Dedede

FINE TIER
- Everyone not mentioned. (I'm pretty sure everyone not mentioned isn't going to develop in a way that drastically breaks them for better of for worse, despite potentially matching any of the characters in the MIGHT BE tiers once everyone is fully developed.)
Thoughts?
Am I misguided on something? haha

 

[KayB]

I'd love to see some extra start up on it. At least so it's no like 'if you try it, you'll get it, if you get it, it's a kill' stupid. Make Char have to make the read, since it's so easy to act accordingly off any tech option/no tech with that simple maneuver. Or at least able to DI it 15ish degrees in a directly... lol
Kind of harsh to call it stupid (it's BEAST too), but really... sure he's a smart player, but I can't even remember the last time I saw him use Char before that match, and that looked WAY too easy/mindless.

Have you tried using a get-up attack?

 

[Nausicaa]

Have you tried using a get-up attack?

That implies no-tech.
D-smash covers it.
GG

Edit/PS: I edited that last post like 10 times... lol

 

[Burnsy]

I've been saying that Lucas is amazing for several months now. I'm surprised there aren't a bunch of people complaining about how broken he is (although I've seen lots of other people feel this way about their new favorite character as well, so I'm guessing people are somewhat inclined to overrate characters they use frequently).

Man, I remember constantly being given **** for saying Lucas is amazing back in the ol 2.1 days.

 

[Nausicaa]

I like how Wario was buffed for being considered 'bad' in 2.1, then was decent in 2.5 to such an extent that even when he was more developed than Wolf/Lucas, and was considered better, and was probably THEN good enough to be perfectly fit in the PM cast, he got buffed AGAIN in 2.6, though not 'as' much perhaps.
Yet Lucas, Wolf, others like Pika and Luigi even, and other characters who some niche-people had been advocating were 'good and underrated by the general public' were essentially untouched, or minor tweaking along the way, some more than others.
It's like the PMBR knows wtf is UP!!! :D

 

[Archangel]

actually lucas is more like a wolf lite

Exactly, They have slower projectiles compared to fox/falco but they are hard hitting, bone crushing combo mombo'ing mofo's. It's just going to have to catch people I guess. It's all fun and games until that character you underestimate takes you out in tournament.

Like last weekend when I got sent to losers by Zero Potential Samus

S: Fox, Falco, Jigglypuff, Sheik
A: Marth, Peach, Captain Falcon
B: Ice Climbers

The characters that can't force themselves in are very good at preventing opponents from being able to "play their own game." Peach, Marth, and Jigglypuff have an extreme set of tools (compared to the rest of the cast, at least) that allows them to work around their lower speed/mobility as a result (and other factors, of course, but, that is a big one). Whether it's about yours or your opponent's, mobility and how threatening you are in relevant positions (based on your hitboxes and being able to stuff your opponent's) is still the name of the game. Their ability to make people do the things they don't want to in neutral position is the primary reason why all the ****ty characters in Melee are ****ty characters in Melee.

I was pretty sure ****ty characters are just ****ty because they were designed ****ty by comparison? I agree with your position on the neutral position, However, this gets away from the point I was getting at a little bit. For starters, This isn't a cast where the top 10 are at least 10 times better than the bottom 10 as is the cast in Melee.

Even still, Characters like Falcon force his way in on the terribad cast members and even then, he occasionally gets his ass handed him by Pikachu or Roy...Marth also takes advantage of the fact that most of the cast is bad and lacks range against him, His anti-projectile game mostly depends on Most of the cast having slow, clankable, too much start up, and/or too much endlag. His speed/range combination only suits him so well because of how slow/short ranged the bulk of the cast are. As a Marth main for many many years my interpretation of Marth is that he's a bully that relies on you being afraid of him/not good enough to beat him. If you can touch him than you can beat him because he's about as soft as he looks. Getting back to the point...take a look at this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPSQd92ruy4

^ That is why Fox is number one with a bullet, Even if you slowed his running speed a little or took away his lasers it wouldn't stop him from destroying the majority of the cast if not still destroying everybody.

Peach on the other hand, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bukOejeiUpw

That's some serious stuff, DJC's are underrated as ****. Peach was the only top 8 DJC character in Melee mainly because the designs of the others were too limited and in the end just not good enough for competitive melee. Peach was fast but and doesn't really own the neutral position as well as one might think. Most of her tactics are noob-slaying. It's part of the reason why I believe Peach and Puff are not as good in PM. Their neutral dominance was fraudulent. Especially Peach who threatened the cast with "If you approach me I'll Dsmash you". Her projectile is slow but effective and potentially dangerous should someone pull a stitch/ba-bomb but for the most part catching them and throwing them back or just clanking them. All in All, Peach is very good but slightly overrated in terms of S-tier status, in fact she's not S-tier in melee just top 8.

Now, Consider Lucas has a technical foundation that mimic's Fox's shine although it's not invincible and it extends from his body and it lacks the priority his shine has, never the less it's an extremely good move. Also, Consider Lucas has the DJC's that allows him to immediately continue his attacks without breaks. What you got is a reasonable character that's potentially but frame perfection and theorycrafting aside In human hands Lucas is already skating upward in tournament results for a reason. You and the other members of the PMBR have created a monster and you don't even seem to realize it just yet.

of course playing floaty characters like Ivy and Wario and you'd hardly notice. Someone like Fox has a solid foundation for what to do vs floaties it's call be fox. Lucas and lucas players still have to figure it out, along with the rest of the cast/PM player base who thought the lameness cap in a melee setting peaked with Puff

 

[Burnsy]

It's like the PMBR knows wtf is UP!!! :D

 

[Strong Badam]

I like how Wario was buffed for being considered 'bad' in 2.1, then was decent in 2.5 to such an extent that even when he was more developed than Wolf/Lucas, and was considered better, and was probably THEN good enough to be perfectly fit in the PM cast, he got buffed AGAIN in 2.6, though not 'as' much perhaps.

The change from 2.5 Wario -> 2.6 Wario was much closer to a lateral movement in viability than an overall buff. His SideB is much worse for recovery, but grants him a new combo-finisher. His Nair's lingering hit was changed from a disgusting Sheik Fair-esque semispike to a more normal angle and it doesn't linger for as long. Downsmash also saw a range decrease and a massive shield damage decrease, as well as fixing a bug that allowed it to hit aerial opponents leading to some really stupid edgeguards. 2.5 Fair was better for gimping, but 2.6 fair is much better for comboing. U-smash also deals less shield damage than in 2.5. Generally speaking, however, his on-stage game was improved and his means of recovery were modified to be less polarizing and lessened his off-stage presence.

 

[Vashimus]

To elaborate on something.
I think Charizard's D-Smash is actually pretty stupid. I told my bro to just WL on platforms and D-Smash when tech-chasing there, as there's not much reason to do anything else. First thing he does off a jab-missed tech, D-Smash > WL D-Smash > WL-Dsmash > U-air Up-B kill of the top of Rumble Falls on a Wolf.
Stupid character in a stupid match-up with a stupid move.

I'd love to see some extra start up on it. At least so it's no like 'if you try it, you'll get it, if you get it, it's a kill' stupid. Make Char have to make the read, since it's so easy to act accordingly off any tech option/no tech with that simple maneuver. Or at least able to DI it 15ish degrees in a directly... lol
Kind of harsh to call it stupid (it's BEAST too), but really... sure he's a smart player, but I can't even remember the last time I saw him use Char before that match, and that looked WAY too easy/mindless.

Yeah, it's not like D-smash's range and priority weren't already nerfed from the last demo, and was made more easily punishable.

 

[Nausicaa]

Vashimus, it's still silly.
Awesome, but silly none-the-less.
DI access please! lol

The change from 2.5 Wario -> 2.6 Wario was much closer to a lateral movement in viability than an overall buff. His SideB is much worse for recovery, but grants him a new combo-finisher. His Nair's lingering hit was changed from a disgusting Sheik Fair-esque semispike to a more normal angle and it doesn't linger for as long. Downsmash also saw a range decrease and a massive shield damage decrease, as well as fixing a bug that allowed it to hit aerial opponents leading to some really stupid edgeguards. 2.5 Fair was better for gimping, but 2.6 fair is much better for comboing. U-smash also deals less shield damage than in 2.5. Generally speaking, however, his on-stage game was improved and his means of recovery were modified to be less polarizing and lessened his off-stage presence.

Exactly! Thanks for elaborating. I find it so interesting that it happened to him in 2.5, yet not so many others, and it was such a great revision going into 2.6 game-flow-wise. He was already solid, and then that solidity was focused. Now, I like him best, but it was possibly just too much solidity to focus into the required areas to make this happen.
I didn't know the D-Smash silliness was a 'bug' though. It was abused a lot, funny enough.

 

[Hylian]

I don't think people quite realize how many crucial weaknesses Lucas has until they play him. I didn't even think the character was viable until 2.6(and he's good now but not near the top of the cast good). People just see lucas do amazing things and think "Oh this character can do THAT he must be amazing and he's probably underrated because he's hard to play"...well being hard to play /=/ being amazing and while Lucas certainly has many amazing qualities people tend to hyper focus on those without any intimate experience with the character.

 

[Nausicaa]

You're just a bully because Link makes little boys jump into **** with his cuddly elf-like features.

 

[metroid1117]

I think Charizard is pretty solid. I wish his glide (and Pit's glide, for that matter) had a timer though.

Edit: To elaborate on something.
I think Charizard's D-Smash is actually pretty stupid. I told my bro to just WL on platforms and D-Smash when tech-chasing there, as there's not much reason to do anything else. First thing he does off a jab-missed tech, D-Smash > WL D-Smash > WL-Dsmash > U-air Up-B kill of the top of Rumble Falls on a Wolf.
Stupid character in a stupid match-up with a stupid move.

I'd love to see some extra start up on it. At least so it's no like 'if you try it, you'll get it, if you get it, it's a kill' stupid. Make Char have to make the read, since it's so easy to act accordingly off any tech option/no tech with that simple maneuver. Or at least able to DI it 15ish degrees in a directly... lol
Kind of harsh to call it stupid (it's BEAST too), but really... sure he's a smart player, but I can't even remember the last time I saw him use Char before that match, and that looked WAY too easy/mindless.

The current iteration of DSmash sends opponents at 79 degrees at the very left- or right-most hitboxes and 90 degrees for the hitboxes directly next to those; only the meteor hitbox directly underneath Charizard cannot be DI'd as easily as other attacks. It's still incredibly good against fastfallers, but having additional start-up on top of the angle changes and increased endlag (and inability to hit aerial opponents with the outer hitboxes) would be too much IMO.

 

[ItalianStallion]

Vashimus, it's still silly.
Awesome, but silly none-the-less.
DI access please! lol

What character were you using against his Charizard? The majority of the cast does not get punished by d-smash in as polarizing of a way as you claim.

What's the general opinion on Lucario/Charizard in 2.6? I think they are certainly capable of holding their own against the majority of the cast, save for a few select matchups. Having great ground mobility is certainly a plus combined with their ability to cause massive damage when landing a hit, but they suffer a bit from good zoning and projectile usage.

Charizard is super amazing. Extremely potent punish game, as long as the player has the reaction time and combo smarts to keep the damage rolling. Goes without saying how good nair is. I would argue his jab is the best in PM. Down b super jump is severely under-utilized by most Zard players (Although, I tend to be super aggro with the Dragon). One very important aspect about Zard is that he has a Falcon-like dair, and multiple jumps along with good recovery moves. Zard's dair is probably my most used move. Dropzone dairs that along with a second jump, means you can even try another dair if the first one misses. One of my favorite things is to do a back-throw to a regrab to a forward throw (Which at that point will normally place them off the stage), and then try for reverse nair gimps or dair kills.

Zard suffers from match-up experience (Kind of like Mewtwo in Melee). Once you know how to DI his stuff so you don't end up where he wants you, his follow-ups are way more limited. Projectiles aren't as hampering to Zard (And could possibly stop being labeled as a true weakness of his) as long as smart platform movement, smooth "reverse glide drops" (Not sure what to call it), and tactical nair play are used. Zard is fat and combo-able, but his versatile recovery means DI'ing off the stage could mean him getting out of a combo and recovering with little hassle.

Being my main, I have more to say on Zard, but I'll stop for now.

 

[Archangel]

I don't think people quite realize how many crucial weaknesses Lucas has until they play him. I didn't even think the character was viable until 2.6(and he's good now but not near the top of the cast good). People just see lucas do amazing things and think "Oh this character can do THAT he must be amazing and he's probably underrated because he's hard to play"...well being hard to play /=/ being amazing and while Lucas certainly has many amazing qualities people tend to hyper focus on those without any intimate experience with the character.

his major weakness is that he's perfect weight and fall speed for getting combo'd to death. However, that same thing can be said for 4 of the top 8 in melee. Aside from that his projectile has long as start-up and doesn't go very far when in the air.

 

[Nausicaa]

What character were you using against his Charizard? The majority of the cast does not get punished by d-smash in as polarizing of a way as you claim.

?
I was Char against 2 players (Lucas + Ganon) when I landed 2 (Lucas) and 3 (Ganon) D-Smashes in a row in doubles up DC's platforms (at the same time).
My bro did the Jab > chain on a Wolf (the most obvious version it's seen on) with the first-time-trying example. (I mentioned this in the post... btw)

I think Charizard is pretty solid. I wish his glide (and Pit's glide, for that matter) had a timer though.

It's still incredibly good against fastfallers, but having additional start-up on top of the angle changes and increased endlag (and inability to hit aerial opponents with the outer hitboxes) would be too much IMO.

What kind of timer? 1/2/3/4/etc seconds?

Do you mean the end-lag and angle changes in 2.6? The move still feels too 'try it and you will succeed' for my tastes. At least when it comes to chasing on platforms, which for sure is more potent against characters that will land on them more mid-combo (fast-fallers).
What are some situations where you would NOT WL on a platform to go for a D-Smash? Outside of a few cases where it's too quick (U-tilt/U-smash/etc come into play), if there's time to WL on, there's no reason not to do it. Not even in favor of just waiting on the ground to from there for using those other options from below, or D-air/U-air, or anything.
It's just so much better/universal/easy to apply/guaranteed than the rest. Don't even have to make a read of some form. :/
Insight for me? Maybe WL > Jab if there's a platform you want to chain to off to the side a bit?

Edit: Lucas has a big head, and therefore is a fun target to grab... if you can.
That is all.

 

[Raccoon Chuck]

I'd like to help bring up the Mario play when I see more big Norcal touraments. I almost feel as though people overlook some of his less publicized buffs, like the mantained cape glide (great for edgeguarding and deeper platform play), his much less stringent Up B walljump, the fact that fireballs are buffed pills, and the fact that his down tilt feels like a down throw alt at times. He is Doc off duty, with a newfound gym membership to boot.

 

[jayeldeee]

I have a bad feeling that someone is going to say everyone is in the same tier. Mine as well play balanced brawl then.

 

[ItalianStallion]

?
I was Char against 2 players (Lucas + Ganon) when I landed 2 (Lucas) and 3 (Ganon) D-Smashes in a row in doubles up DC's platforms (at the same time).
My bro did the Jab > chain on a Wolf (the most obvious version it's seen on) with the first-time-trying example. (I mentioned this in the post... btw)

Sorry, missed seeing that you said Wolf. I was trying to confirm that it was a spacie. Yes, spacies can get wrecked by down smash. Yes, it can seem very mindless and free. No this isn't a problem. Why? Because a ton of characters have mindless/free spacies punishes. Whether it's chaingrabs, repeated up-tilts, or dropzone knees, this kind of stuff is very often seen in a variety of characters. D-smash can be stupid good against spacies, but Zard is far from the only one with anti-spacie tech.

The move against non-fast-fallers, is definitely not as punishing and free as you claim, no more than Sheik's forward tilt is punishing and free. WL on platforms to a d-smash is a very good Zard tool, but it is in no way foolproof. Someone earlier said that you can just get-up-attack and stop the d-smash. They are absolutely right. As a Zard main, if I were to mindlessly try to chase someone up platforms with WL-d-smashes, if my opponent was smart and used a mix of techs and get-up attacks to throw me off, the success of that working every subsequent time would drop substantially.

Also, most character's aren't fast-fallers. Non-fastfallers won't get caught in those shenanigans unless they are at very specific percents. The two players you played against in that doubles match, probably didn't DI very well. Or the percents of them both were perfect for that kind of follow-up, and even then, a get-up attack can stop that whole thing from working.

So, basically my point is: Your argument against d-smash works only when referring to fast-fallers, but if that's your point, then we need to bring up every anti-spacie move for critique. Otherwise, the move is no more broken then Sheik's forward tilt and simple things like get-up attacks can easily stop the seemingly mindless and broken strategies from occurring.

 

[metroid1117]

What kind of timer? 1/2/3/4/etc seconds?

Just some kind of timer to prevent glides from allowing the user to travel from one end of the screen to the other; it'd have to be tested out to see how long that would usually take, but I'd imagine somewhere around 6 seconds for Charizard might be reasonable.

Do you mean the end-lag and angle changes in 2.6? The move still feels too 'try it and you will succeed' for my tastes. At least when it comes to chasing on platforms, which for sure is more potent against characters that will land on them more mid-combo (fast-fallers).
What are some situations where you would NOT WL on a platform to go for a D-Smash? Outside of a few cases where it's too quick (U-tilt/U-smash/etc come into play), if there's time to WL on, there's no reason not to do it. Not even in favor of just waiting on the ground to from there for using those other options from below, or D-air/U-air, or anything.
It's just so much better/universal/easy to apply/guaranteed than the rest. Don't even have to make a read of some form. :/
Insight for me? Maybe WL > Jab if there's a platform you want to chain to off to the side a bit?

Waveland -> DSmash is an extremely powerful option like you said, but one of the downsides of DSmash is that the outer hitboxes send at a more horizontal angle than UTilt (which is a great but situational juggler); this means that if the platform is wide enough, the opponent may be able to roll far enough away where they get hit by the outer hit, which has less followups than UTilt if the opponent DI's properly. Waveland -> DSmash also isn't particularly quick either, given Charizard's seemingly average aerial rise speed (? not too sure about this, but he definitely doesn't rise as fast as someone like Fox or Sheik) and DSmash's average start-up time (IIRC, DSmashes like MK, Mario, and Peach hit on frame 5, which are significantly faster than Charizard's DSmash); unless they got hit by a DAir or the center hitbox of DSmash, opponents who DI properly and are still forced to touch the platform during tumble (usually fastfallers) typically reach the platform before Charizard does. From my experience, this, coupled with the fact that Charizard's poor aerial mobility limits him to running under the platform and then wavelanding onto it, has made waveland -> DSmash a very situational option that's only viable against fastfallers.

In short, IMO waveland -> DSmash is too situational to be a problem and in the case of large platforms (like on Rumble Falls), it would be better to hit them with UTilt since there's less of a chance for them to DI out. Although it may seem distasteful that a single attack can cover so many options, it seems too rare of an occurrence to be concerned about it.

 

[KayB]

Hey, it kills Fox. Who cares.

 

[Vashimus]

Doesn't matter, killed Fox!

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

yay, charizard discussion!

I still maintain charizard is pretty good but has huge flaws, so he'll never be OP.
Most of the stuff people complain about seems too good (like Nair/Dsmash/Backthrow followups/recovery), but in reality it's only effective against a part of the cast or will decrease in efficiency strongly when you know what to do against it.

If you manage to land on 3 platforms, maybe it's a tiny bit your fault that you die after... just like it may be your fault if the opponent kills you with a 3 or 4 uair combo as fox.
If you learn how to DI his throws you won't get gimped nearly as easily as if you sit there and complain about it. If it annoys you, ****ing pause the game, ask the opponent what you should do, and if he's nice, he'll give you a tip, and you can test your options. Do it, and you'll get 200% better vs. charizard in like half an hour.

The right DI, the right edgeguarding and the right way to deal with nair pressure and charizard isn't such a chore anymore. (obviously all that requires something else for every character) As a bonus DI Uairs and avoid 0-death juggles (at least... sometimes)

 

[NeonApophis]

Man, I remember constantly being given **** for saying Lucas is amazing back in the ol 2.1 days.

Well, I didn't start playing until 2.5. I'm pretty sure Coty would have told you Lucas was amazing back then.

Peach was the only top 8 DJC character in Melee mainly because the designs of the others were too limited and in the end just not good enough for competitive melee. Peach was fast but and doesn't really own the neutral position as well as one might think.

Peach does not use DJC really at all in Melee. The 260 nairs per minute are done with float cancelling, which is far better than DJC since it cancels all the lag from your aerial and just gives you normal landing lag. Also, Peach does own the neutral position very well in Melee. After Fox and Falco, Peach is probably the best at approaching and shield pressuring, since she can frame trap you with FC aerials, and just grab or dsmash your shield safely, or do some FC nairs or jabs first to hit you if you try to do anything after the first aerial. And you can't really approach Peach easily, since she can control space pretty well with turnips and aerials, and can up b and nair out of shield to stop pretty much any pressure in Melee. She can also CC dsmash a lot of characters' approaches if they mess up even a little, so even hitting her can turn out to be very bad, especially for fast fallers. Overall, Peach is really good, and is a faster character than Marth or Sheik in terms of applying and reacting to pressure. Marth and Sheik have other qualities that led them to be higher on the Melee tier list, but they are generally more passive than Peach because they can't execute moves as quickly. They instead rely on safe neutral games and then punish heavily when they get an opening, and can do this effectively enough that they are considered better than Peach overall. However, PM will have a different metagame, in which many characters have had their moves increased in speed and power. This also means that there is an increase in shield stun and a reduction in end lag, which results in better frame advantages against shields. If Peach's apm becomes more important in this game, she could conceivably become better than some of the other Melee high tiers.

 

[Archangel]

Well, I didn't start playing until 2.5. I'm pretty sure Coty would have told you Lucas was amazing back then.


Peach does not use DJC really at all in Melee. The 260 nairs per minute are done with float cancelling, which is far better than DJC since it cancels all the lag from your aerial and just gives you normal landing lag. Also, Peach does own the neutral position very well in Melee. After Fox and Falco, Peach is probably the best at approaching and shield pressuring, since she can frame trap you with FC aerials, and just grab or dsmash your shield safely, or do some FC nairs or jabs first to hit you if you try to do anything after the first aerial. And you can't really approach Peach easily, since she can control space pretty well with turnips and aerials, and can up b and nair out of shield to stop pretty much any pressure in Melee. She can also CC dsmash a lot of characters' approaches if they mess up even a little, so even hitting her can turn out to be very bad, especially for fast fallers. Overall, Peach is really good, and is a faster character than Marth or Sheik in terms of applying and reacting to pressure. Marth and Sheik have other qualities that led them to be higher on the Melee tier list, but they are generally more passive than Peach because they can't execute moves as quickly. They instead rely on safe neutral games and then punish heavily when they get an opening, and can do this effectively enough that they are considered better than Peach overall. However, PM will have a different metagame, in which many characters have had their moves increased in speed and power. This also means that there is an increase in shield stun and a reduction in end lag, which results in better frame advantages against shields. If Peach's apm becomes more important in this game, she could conceivably become better than some of the other Melee high tiers.

Maybe it's because I am a Marth main and I secondary Falcon, Fox, Falco, Sheik. I just don't see Peach as that big of a threat in the neutral position. Unless I was playing someone like ganon I don't feel like Peach controls the neutral position as much as she seems. Many times people just do stupid stuff or just try too hard to approach and they do so recklessly.

 

[jayeldeee]

Hey wait a minute! If Pokemon X and Y is coming out, does this mean Charizard's final smash will be Mega Charizard?

 

[Plum]

Mega Charizard Y for Final Smash or gtfo.
Mega Charizard X is ugly.

 

[| Kailex |]

I prefer the x version /:

 

[Deleted member]

i prefer real pokemon.

 

[KayB]

I prefer gameplay over aesthetics.

 

[DMG]

I like how Wario was buffed for being considered 'bad' in 2.1, then was decent in 2.5 to such an extent that even when he was more developed than Wolf/Lucas, and was considered better, and was probably THEN good enough to be perfectly fit in the PM cast, he got buffed AGAIN in 2.6, though not 'as' much perhaps.
Yet Lucas, Wolf, others like Pika and Luigi even, and other characters who some niche-people had been advocating were 'good and underrated by the general public' were essentially untouched, or minor tweaking along the way, some more than others.
It's like the PMBR knows wtf is UP!!! :D

Or maybe there's not much room left for buffs without destroying the feel of the character? There's a lot of buffs to Luigi or Pika specifically you could give, but would kind of ruin how they feel. Like if Luigi moved horizontally faster in the air, or if Pika had better range, etc. A lot of character that are "left alone" may have conflicting views on what to do with them, and could still be falling behind with others in the cast. Being left alone (or being buffed) isn't always an accurate indicator of how good their balance was or will be.

Wario doesn't have a huge player base, and IMO the only reason his metagame feels more developed, is because he's such a straight forward character compared to how many things you have to calculate and press as Lucas or Wolf to win. With Wolf, you may have to accurately read or react to different DI on a dime, and pick the right move, to keep going on. With Wario, you kinda hit people with "stuff" near them and it will probably work out. If someone has bad DI against Wario, or gives him room, he can continue with any move under the sun (exaggeration obv but still). Are they offstage? NAIR WILL GIMP THEM.

Wario prob didn't need such extensive buffing. He was bad in 2.1, I dunno why you reference that patch as if Wario DID GOOD in that patch. Wario took off like a jet plane in 2.5, after a huge number of buffs. Multiple people, including literally the guy who wins with Wario the most in the entire world, have said he wasn't great in 2.1. Lotsa buffs + 2 very strong characters that he lost bad against got nerfed? That's more validation for 2.5 Wario than "Naw dawg, 2.1 Wario had that OG **** goin on"

You can what you want about Lucas or Wolf or other "overnight" superstars people slept on. Wario ain't one of them. It would be like saying people slept on Gangplank before his rework, and then once Riot buffed him to have a ridiculous kit, you say "see I told ya, old GP was awesome nobody listened"

Wario success in 2.1 = Unimpressive

Wario success after buffs = Dolla Dolla Bill Yall

 

[jayeldeee]

I prefer your mom.

 

[Nausicaa]

DMG, half of your post is just blabber and I have no idea what you're talking about/referring to/what the purpose of the post is.
"destroying the feel of the character" "straight forward character compared to" etc < relevant comments.
Then you started ranting about 2.1 and... why did you keep typing? None of it makes sense or is relevant to the quote/anyone else's comments.

I still don't understand what you post most of the time, and yet you comment on like everything I say. lol

 

[DMG]

There are characters like Pikachu and Luigi, that go relatively untouched because changing them means you probably change that character's personality or notable features (weaknesses included). When that is the case, you can't assume "Well PMBR hasn't touched them in a long time, I guess they are balanced/they got it right". Whether a character gets changes or does not, revolves around more than just balance. Pikachu could literally (not as he is now, but as an example) be the worst character in the game, and never receive further buffs because changes like more range would make him less "Pikachu-esque".

Lucas and Wolf may be great examples, but not every character that's had a dry spell of changes, is balanced on the money or is assumed by the PMBR to be that way.

I bring up Wario cause he was bad in 2.1 and I felt like stressing that again. As for 2.6, SB accurately described and framed those changes.

 

[\Apples]

Sure does smell like tier list discussion in here.