Tier List Speculation

[Life]

re: Squirtle, yeah he's hyper mobile but a good chunk of that mobility is locked behind a 15 frame or so dash turnaround animation during which he cannot shield, so in practice he's not THAT much more mobile than someone like Fox or ZSS or Falcon; he lacks for reach much more than any of those characters, Bubble/WG aside. His slidiness is a double-edged sword, as it makes his platform mobility super good and occasionally bails him out of his techroll problem, but it also prevents him from getting shieldgrabs, which would help him a lot since he has a kill dthrow and DI traps off his throws. tl;dr awesome but impractical in some ways

re: Kirby, he does a couple things really well: jumps out of combos, covers tech options when roll away isn't a factor, gets weird gimps, probably some other stuff. Got mobility issues, though. I'm not knowledgable enough on the character to say more.

re: Mewtwo, I've been on the Mewtwo hype train for a little while now. A Mewtwo that has mastered the teleport can threaten radical amounts of space; his punishes are very strong. For one less commonly cited example, Disable fills a pretty noticeable hole in his kit: he can only consistently convert aerial combos into horizontal knockback via back air. If he has a combo going on someone in front of him, Melee/SDR Mewtwo would finish with fair, which mostly sends people up, or with Shadow Ball, which may not be charged. Disable allows Mewtwo to convert his air combos into edgeguard situations more consistently.

 

[KiteAF]

the answer to your first thought is no, they aren't.


and I'm serious about that tier gap. you will never see those characters past round 2 in tournament anymore unless someone is trolling or its me with DDD counterpicking a FE/spacie

X'(

 

[Saproling]

the answer to your first thought is no, they aren't.


and I'm serious about that tier gap. you will never see those characters past round 2 in tournament anymore unless someone is trolling or its me with DDD counterpicking a FE/spacie

Bias the list.

 

[Ya Boy GP]

Mewtwo could easily be high tier in my opinion, but he still has the fundamental issue of having a tough time against CC. If Mewtwos neutral game develops and finds a workaround CC consistently he'd be high tier, maybe even top tier. He has the kit for it when you consider things like confusion/disable, hover, teleport, footstools, etc.

 

[Ripple]

DDD isn't good and youre deluded with how well I've done to actually see how bad he is most likely

other than his placement I don't see how this is any more biased than any other list we've seen recently and you dismissing the entire list simply because of 1 placement and even bothering to waste a comment on it does nothing for discussion

 

[Saproling]

My point wasn't for DDD he is bad my point is Ivy is way too high she should be hanging around with Link and Puff.

 

[Ripple]

Ivy is ****ing amazing. I don't see how anyone could possibly think she's bad with her kit. hell even most of the ex-DT thinks she's high tier except odds.

Her ground game is actually absurdly good. people keep trying to play her in the air every patch as a puff type when they shouldn't at all imo. bair is decent, it isn't busted like it used to be. d-tilts, pivot grab, and razor leaf can just shut down like everything

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

solarbeam is scary

the fact that ivy can outrange swordies with moves that lead into hitconfirms for solarbeam is scary

 

[trash?]

in the grand scheme of things, I don't think I mind this tier list as our future. I mean, as much as I'm grumpy at kirby's inevitable fate of continuing to be a bad character in every smash game not released in 1999, the list of truly viable characters in the long term is varied enough to be interesting to watch.

wait no am I supposed to be groveling at your DDD placement or something. I don't know how this thread works anymore

 

[Cox Box]

It's funny that right after I post my first thoughts on balanced changes to my character it turns out that's never going to happen. As much as I like the idea of those changes, I'll still keep wrecking people with Ike as much as I can in 3.6. It really is too bad for Link mains that his grab bug is never going to be fixed though.

Edit: Where is this tier list maker that people are using? I want to make my own poorly informed list so we can all argue about it.

 

[Saproling]

Ivy is ****ing amazing. I don't see how anyone could possibly think she's bad with her kit. hell even most of the ex-DT thinks she's high tier except odds.

Her ground game is actually absurdly good. people keep trying to play her in the air every patch as a puff type when they shouldn't at all imo. bair is decent, it isn't busted like it used to be. d-tilts, pivot grab, and razor leaf can just shut down like everything

RL gets shut down by more **** than it shuts out. Down tilt is good yes but that doesn't make up for the rest or her mediocre kit, her MUs against the universally agreed upon high/top tiers is really bad so theres no way shes hanging with them. Shes got good punishes that is it id agree on pivot grab if it could grab people in the air but no.Her weakness don't justify her strengths and vice versa her one strength was stripped from her when they made it so everyone can edge guard her just as hard as she can them if not potentially worse. You just have a lot of hate due to being a DDD player just like I probably think Marth is better than he really is due to being an Ivy player.

 

[ImCarlSagan]

Ripple, why is Yoshi considered so bad?

 

[Aunt Jemima]

question for ripple

what character/tier and above would you consider truly viable?

 

[DrinkingFood]

don't ask ripple, he thinks MK is the best character, opinion invalid

 

[xquqx]

Ripple, why is Yoshi considered so bad?

Yoshi is kind of buggy and gets stuck in shield when he shouldn't be, for starters. He also lost a lot of things that let him have good match ups from the nerfs going into 3.6, like his grab and his ability to recover.

 

[Cha Cha San]

I really don't think Olimar is the worst character in the game...

 

[Jamwa]

Ivy is ****ing amazing. I don't see how anyone could possibly think she's bad with her kit. hell even most of the ex-DT thinks she's high tier except odds.

Her ground game is actually absurdly good. people keep trying to play her in the air every patch as a puff type when they shouldn't at all imo. bair is decent, it isn't busted like it used to be. d-tilts, pivot grab, and razor leaf can just shut down like everything

razorleaf not so good because startup + speed = easy powershields.
i do agree with other sentiments though. her frame data is bad but that's just one aspect and everything else she has is good

 

[Saproling]

Her frame data is not okay for how fragile she is her movement is fine but all she really has out of that is dash attack that doesn't have too much start up when FIGHTING characters that are faster or as fast as her. She isn't far off from where she needs to be but thats the past. Shes far from the worst in the game but saying shes solo mainable even in the current state of the meta is laughable.
Dash attacks good though.

 

[Jamwa]

she forces approaches no matter stock/percent lead against like every character in the cast bar fox because healing+movement+seedbomb, so her frame data isnt necessarily bad when played as a bait/punish/walling character.
i find her playstyle to share similarities with ness, so i feel she isnt as bad as most make her out to be but not as good as ripple does.
i agree she isnt solo mainable though/

 

[Saproling]

This works in a sense but if you get optimal punishes you will get a kill and the charge needed for a solar beam and if you spend it you lose the threat of it. I guess what im trying to say is both sides have their ups and downs when it comes to synth. You can force approaches against characters with no projectile which is useful against say falcon Wario and FEs off the top of my head but say with Wario if you do spend it you lose Wario having to respect floating around a certain area which helps quite a bit. You're right though shes around Ness's power level id say strong punishes and some pretty good tools but they just get out shined by other characters that can do those things and more IMO.
Also people please start clanking leaf its not hard

 

[Ripple]

don't ask ripple, he thinks MK is the best character, opinion invalid

the answer to your first thought is no, it isn't...

... In order.

That should have been obvious

 

[D e l t a]

Michigan hates Squirtle and thinks something crazy like top 10 because of based Dirtboy.

I honestly don't think squirtle is that good. Rather, Dirtboy is just amazing and good with the character. Same for Kirby (Tetra), Pika (Anther), JZ (Ivy). Pretty sure that MI on average hates G&W way more than Squirtle by a long shot.

MI overall is a solid region and somehow our PR consists of good players using average to A tier characters. It goes to show how PM's character development balances the cast enough that players of high skill levels can perform well using any character and not have to pick a top tier character to win (looking at any Smash series game)

 

[Boiko]

Eight plus characters in three tiers, but they're not in order?

 

[Keman]

you will never see those characters past round 2 in tournament anymore

Just wanted to say I think Gallo could make it past "round 2" with Pit, he has been showing some good things with the character and said if he makes it to nebs this week he wants to go all pit. Pit seems like he would have a lot to gain from exploring him, with how little I ever see him talked about or played. (maybe it just seems that way though with the other characters having more exposer/yoshi having melee)

 

[Boiko]

"You will never see those characters make it past round two in a tournament, unless it's me using my character, specifically as a counter pick to top tiers, but he still sucks."

Seems legit.

 

[CORY]

well, that's not entirely unheard of. in vanilla blazblue bang shishigami was legit, like, step above bottom tier but he was a solid counter to nu, who was pretty widely agreed on as being at least second best (all iirc, that game's pretty old at this point...). it depends on what tools you have that work to counter those characters and whether they're enough to make it matter in the meta sense.

however, i don't really know enough about the meta in pm to fully grasp how ddd works against the spacies, et al. i just vaguely understand "breaks the neutral and forces them to approach by jumping and keeping waddles out to pester and stop projectiles" which i'm sure is basic as hell.

 

[Ripple]

Do you think ganon isn't a cp character who actually sucks?

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

Ripple, your being really inconsistent in your list. I would agree that DDD is not solo mainable, but, he definately is not in the unplayable tier. According to you, DDD beats every character in the S tier of your list except Diddy. DDD is definately still going to see play, just maybe not as a solo main. You even said yourself, you will be using DDD to CP certain MU. I know you aren't going to be the only player doing that.

 

[drakargx]

It was never implied that that was the unplayable tier, did you read what he said? That tier gap is for characters that simply have no chance of winning a decently stacked tournament unless something groundbreaking about them is found. The only time you would want to play DDD is when you want to counterpick a space animal, but like CORY said that does not mean he's a good character, it just means he's not a flat out useless one

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

I'd say not making it past round 2 of a major is borderlining on unplayable. That's just my mentality though.
I just don't see how a character that beats of goes even with 90% of the best characters in the game is in the same tier as Bowser.

 

[fsck!]

Is there a conveniently located resource that explains /why/ the current tier list is the way it is? Or is it all speculation and opinion right now?

 

[xquqx]

Is there a conveniently located resource that explains /why/ the current tier list is the way it is? Or is it all speculation and opinion right now?

There is no "official" tier list, so everything is pure speculation and opinion.

 

[didds]

lets wait for a top player before assuming characters like yoshi are unviable or that pika and squirtle are bad.

There are so many pockets of pm and most of us are only exposed to our scene and then like 2 or 3 other scenes that can manage to stream their tournaments.

Characters that are most likely bad or unviable are ones that have mus where they can't actively engage their opponent in a meaningful way (granted the opponent knows the mu).

Yoshi, squirtle, pika all have tools they can use to maneuver around and open up other characters with. I'm hesitant to write them off with the limited amount of footage there is on these characters, and with the personal success I've had with them.

I've played some bowser and dedede and there are times where you literally think "what the hell am I supposed to be doing right now to win this?" It's never like that with squirtle or pika, rather it becomes "I should be doing this/I should've used this instead of that"

As far as yoshi goes, he has no unwinnable mus and does pretty well against a lot of the high tiers relative to the rest of the cast, so putting him with bowser just seems disingenuous.

One of the biggest issues with pm has always been a limited talent pool heavily focused on certain characters and play styles, people just don't tend to pick characters like yoshi or squirtle because strong fundamentals won't guarantee immediate success. They are specialist characters and will naturally have the slowest meta game development. Heck, people though yoshi was Roy/Zelda tier in melee til amsa finally came along.

So idk what I'm saying, maybe in the present lists with these characters low is accurate, but I doubt it will stay that way forever. They just have too many tools in their kit to be forever compared to character who literally have unwinnable mus

 

[CORY]

pretty much that ^
edit: in response to vquqx's post.

the only things that have been rather stable are the top tiers.

so, fox, wolf, mk are pretty widely considered to be top contenders. then you have falco, marth, rob typically up there, with falcon, zss, and diddy included often. diddy and rob have been more consistently thrown into top lately, by better players especially.

but, a lot of it was unstable just due to potential patching. now that patching (should...) stop, tier lists can start to stabilize more. the very top tiers are unlikely to shift much, but you'll see a lot more consensus and the middle area will be feasible to clarify, so you can say more than "all of these characters are mid tier".

 

[nimigoha]

pretty much that ^
edit: in response to vquqx's post.

the only things that have been rather stable are the top tiers.

so, fox, wolf, mk are pretty widely considered to be top contenders. then you have falco, marth, rob typically up there, with falcon, zss, and diddy included often. diddy and rob have been more consistently thrown into top lately, by better players especially.

but, a lot of it was unstable just due to potential patching. now that patching (should...) stop, tier lists can start to stabilize more. the very top tiers are unlikely to shift much, but you'll see a lot more consensus and the middle area will be feasible to clarify, so you can say more than "all of these characters are mid tier".

^Also Sheik

 

[CORY]

knew i missed something...

 

[Ripple]

I'll just put it in math terms. If a DDD players goes into a match against a random opponent then he has about a 80% chance of being disadvantaged right of the bat. And you have about a 15% chance of playing a -3 MU which in DDD's case, are unwinnable. Which means you can't even use him for the next 2 games while you have to rely on your secondary with a game loss most likely.

DDD can be a CP character for game 2 sometimes but the chances of losing game 1 are high and you should never use him the last game of a set if it's your opponents CP.

And the characters he does beat? Yeah it may be spacues and FE characters and sheik but it's only +1 and their meta game is going to advance far more rapidly than his leading to shift in MUs values more toward even because DDD's weaknesses are so pronounced

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

pretty much that ^
edit: in response to vquqx's post.

the only things that have been rather stable are the top tiers.

so, fox, wolf, mk are pretty widely considered to be top contenders. then you have falco, marth, rob typically up there, with falcon, zss, and diddy included often. diddy and rob have been more consistently thrown into top lately, by better players especially.

but, a lot of it was unstable just due to potential patching. now that patching (should...) stop, tier lists can start to stabilize more. the very top tiers are unlikely to shift much, but you'll see a lot more consensus and the middle area will be feasible to clarify, so you can say more than "all of these characters are mid tier".

and wario

wario is very good, I thought this was generally agreed upon

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

DDD is bad, sure. But not tier gap bad. Same with Kirby.

Anyhow, could we start going over some matchups. Let's choose someone, Fox for example, and just run with it. Go though every Fox matchup and come up with a number. I know individual character forums should be doing this, but here we have a lot of people, all of whom play different characters and play in different regions that can provide some input.

We need to start somewhere, arguing over 1 persons tierlist over and over is not going to give us a mostly agreed upon tier list anytime soon.

 

[CORY]

and wario

wario is very good, I thought this was generally agreed upon

wario is a personal kryptonite for me, so i'm never sure if i'm just feeling bias when i say he's really good or what ;x

i was also just posting up stuff mostly off memory while making another post, all in between pushup/pullup sets ;x

i'm sure i forgot a lot of the upper tier characters, but they're generally less agreed upon than the top tiers, which have cemented decently well. with the advent of patchless meta, i expect things to jumble up a bit, as local metas are sorted together into something cohesive, then to see a lot more agreement on the middle of the tier list start to form, regardless of who's actually there.