Tier List Speculation

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

luigi can clank pikmin toss pmuch on reaction with jab

at least I think so

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

luigi can clank pikmin toss pmuch on reaction with jab

at least I think so

Yes, he can

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Yes, he can

also luigi's jab is godlike

frame 2 hitbox, lunges forward a hilarious amount, has disjoint

 

[Ningildo]

I'll just play super lame and just keep tossing pikmin while running away. Also purples.

But, yeah. Maybe one day we'll play. Or steelguttey could actually be a decent player and play you so we can figure the MU out.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

also unless purple pikmin toss do more than 16 damage (which I sure don't think they do) luigi can power through all the other pikmin and clank purples with downb

 

[Ningildo]

That'd just reset to neutral though. And purples are weird. They can go through fireballs despite only doing like 10%, so I have no idea how they interact with things.

Not to mention that the pikmin would cause hitlag and make the down-b a bit more reactable (and punishable).

Idk, I just feel Olimar playing neutral forever would be hard to deal with for Luigi because he can just toss out pikmin and wall him out with f-smash, purple toss and retreating RAR Fair.

Or maybe we're all just bad, who knows.

 

[Soft Serve]

Wanted to post my opinion of Luigi's MUs thus far. I posted this in the luigi skype group and most of them agreed (except for Pit).

http://prntscr.com/9a1lsp

Luigi's percent is on the left, the opponent char percent on the right. So Luigi GnW, for instance is 45 Luigi, 55 GnW, meaning Luigi loses.

Generally, characters that have good air mobility, juggle tools, and/or disjoint do well against Luigi or go even vs him I feel (with the exception of Sonic and DDD, but the mu isn't so bad for those two either). I don't think any character gets hard-countered by Luigi ,and that every character is capable of beating him with smart plays and good decision making. Lucario, I think, has the hardest time vs Luigi, but I don't find it to be unwinnable by any means. And Luigi doesn't really get hard countered by anyone either. Marth, Toon Link, and Fox are close but even those characters are doable. (Thank you PM up air and recovery).

Feel free to agree/disagree. And I will respond if I'm not too lazy (I will be most likely).

I'm pretty confident that diddy beats luigi 60/40. its on diddy to mess up (like over extending a combo, getting grabbed, leaving a banana out) but outside of wavedrops luigi can't get in reliably (and wavedrops aren't that hard to deal with if you position yourself right relative to the platform). Idk, I think luigi is really good but Diddy just litterally has every tool he needs to stop luigi completely (read, bair, peanut/banana, dtilt, shielding)


I also think you can be a top tier or S tier with an unwinnable MU, or a few bad MUs. Diddy/Samus might be that bad, and he has a few hard counters but he's undeniably top tier.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

That'd just reset to neutral though. And purples are weird. They can go through fireballs despite only doing like 10%, so I have no idea how they interact with things.

Not to mention that the pikmin would cause hitlag and make the down-b a bit more reactable (and punishable).

Idk, I just feel Olimar playing neutral forever would be hard to deal with for Luigi because he can just toss out pikmin and wall him out with f-smash, purple toss and retreating RAR Fair.

Or maybe we're all just bad, who knows.

if olimar still has the issue from brawl where he can't cover at 45 degree angles from himself, then luigi could easily just wavedrop in with an aerial, or the threat of doing so would enable him to platform camp for a good while

fsmash is relatively laggy, meaning luigi could wavdash > spotdodge > punish, which he could also due during the "off time" when olimar is waiting for the pikmin that he tossed to come back to him
also being able to jab/ftilt/dsmash tossed pikmin kills them, meaning that olimar has less options and if luigi keeps applying fireball pressure, he should be able to force a situation where olimar has to get punished for pulling more pikmin or deal with the endlag of any one of his neutral moves. theoretically, I think luigi can kind of run around olimar until he forces an opening, whereas olimar can't really do the same to luigi. olimar is going to seal off a section of the stage and call it his and give luigi the rest, but luigi can just kind of take potshots at olimar's wall until he sees an opening

of course I don't think this matchup is going to be played on this level for awhile yet but I think it's definitely in luigi's favor in neutral

 

[Deleted member]

>talk to luigi mains, ivy wins
>talk to ivy mains, matchup is even or luigi wins

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

talk to ivy mains, opponents character is even or wins regardless of MU

 

[Saproling]

I wish I was Trekk.

 

[Ningildo]

if olimar still has the issue from brawl where he can't cover at 45 degree angles from himself, then luigi could easily just wavedrop in with an aerial, or the threat of doing so would enable him to platform camp for a good while

fsmash is relatively laggy, meaning luigi could wavdash > spotdodge > punish, which he could also due during the "off time" when olimar is waiting for the pikmin that he tossed to come back to him
also being able to jab/ftilt/dsmash tossed pikmin kills them, meaning that olimar has less options and if luigi keeps applying fireball pressure, he should be able to force a situation where olimar has to get punished for pulling more pikmin or deal with the endlag of any one of his neutral moves. theoretically, I think luigi can kind of run around olimar until he forces an opening, whereas olimar can't really do the same to luigi. olimar is going to seal off a section of the stage and call it his and give luigi the rest, but luigi can just kind of take potshots at olimar's wall until he sees an opening

of course I don't think this matchup is going to be played on this level for awhile yet but I think it's definitely in luigi's favor in neutral

The aerial has to be fairly disjointed like dair, because uptilt will eat up nair easy.

F-smash has 15 frame startup, 11 if yellow. Luigi has a frame 4 jumpsquat and suffers 10 frames of endlag after wavedashing and needs a frame before spotdodge invincibility kicks in, totaling in at 15 frames. What this means is that Luigi has to be wavedashing before F-smash even starts to avoid it AKA predict it and punish it accordingly. The reverse is also true; if Oli knows Luigi is going to try to wavedash > w/e, then he can do a preemptive f-smash to stuff it. In other words, this sort of exchange will differ in outcome depending on who predicted correctly.

And yeah, you can kill pikmin with attacks, but Oli can just toss one, repluck, then toss 3, repluck two or just one and so on (AKA mix up replenishing pikmin). IASA frame for neutral b is 11, so the opening for punishing is really small. And side b IASA is 25, while Luigi's fireball is frame 41 or something, which means Oli can toss a pikmin, pluck another in case it dies, and still have frame advantage. Downsmash is in a similar situation, having a IASA at frame 36, compounded by hitlag due pikmin. Jab is fast and does get them off (unless they are on his back or head), but it won't kill them and Oli can just whistle them back (whistle having a IASA of 11 means that punishing it is a small window).

I do agree with your assessment of how it will play out, but while Luigi waits for that opening, he'll be eating a lot of chip damage, more so if Oli gets center stage control. It really depends on Oli getting opened up or just maintaining his stage control and chip away at Luigi.

 

[steelguttey]

luigi vs oli is weird but everyone knew tht

luigi is basically a constant hitbox so getting him to commit to a jump is really tough, once he does get in the air from nairing off a pikmin or something its a free fair/grab and we can keep him in the air forever. we're really good at edgeguarding luigi you just gotta go deep with fair. its really a poke fest, karp is right that fireballs are a huge pain in the **** but pikmin clank with it so we can find openings if he isnt wavedashing behind it. i think its even, could go either way.

 

[D e l t a]

I always find it really intriguing when someone brings up a brawl matchup to explain a PM one. I suppose there's a good reason it doesn't happen often but brawl knowledge does help shine a light sometimes.

I rarely use Brawl MUs in general to explain PM MUs. I make a few exceptions where the characters are relatively the same. Characters similar throughout the series such as Puff, DK, Samus, Yoshi, Kirby, Luigi, etc. Basically the 64 cast lol

The way neutral interactions are played and character's base design recovery given past experiences of the MU with higher level players. It makes less of speculation and more of a compare/contrast feel. For instance, Jiggs & Kirby use WoP ledge guards and their 5 jumps strategically, while having limited, slower recoveries (save for Kirby having a better UpB in PM). Or that Luigi uses his movement options, DownB, and fireballs to approach. And Yoshi's recovery kinda sucks with not having an UpB and limited double jump.

Regardless, the punish game and MU in actuality will be played much differently than any other iteration. I think that providing insight of a MU that's been played multiple times at higher levels– despite being a different game, can be beneficial. Especially since PM players, on average, are not that good yet. Even players such as Junebug, IPK, or MrLz have yet to fully optimize their character or play opponents that are completely proficient with their characters. This just gives us a good idea without baseless claims or theory crafting.

==

Speaking of Oli covering a 45° angle, rip UpB tether. That move was great OoS and with 3+ pikmin had fantastic range (6 pikmin tether UpB OoS in Brawl #Krey). His Upsmash has deceptive disjoint on the sides, but low priority. Fair is alright OoS but doesn't cover the angle above 45° very well, mainly in front of him.

Most character in general struggle with covering a 45° angle IMO, but if someone is approaching at that angle, it's typically a bad approach. The opponent must be jumping and falling straight down, which can be covered by WD back / roll away / anti-air counter before they attack if you predict it. In this sense, you don't NEED that coverage, as these approaches are sub-optimal to begin with.

 

[DrinkingFood]

"Jab on reaction can beat [x]"
The number of times I've heard this
Did you guys know powershield on reaction can beat all those things and more with less commitment

 

[Juushichi]

Did you know that my reaction to your reaction beats whatever you were doing on reaction?

 

[D e l t a]

Olimar's SideB is crummy and slow and he can only have 4 pikmin thrown at most. So in this case, jab can beat Oli's Pikmin toss on reaction

Chill with the condescending attitude

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

don't thrown pikmin go through shield

 

[Life]

Issues of tone aside, Drinkingfood has a point. There's a lot more that goes into reactions than simple frame data. Spacing, conditioning, general level of alertness, instinctive matchup knowledge, etc.

See also theorycrafting about spotdodge vs. Samus grab.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

I'm pretty confident that diddy beats luigi 60/40. its on diddy to mess up (like over extending a combo, getting grabbed, leaving a banana out) but outside of wavedrops luigi can't get in reliably (and wavedrops aren't that hard to deal with if you position yourself right relative to the platform). Idk, I think luigi is really good but Diddy just litterally has every tool he needs to stop luigi completely (read, bair, peanut/banana, dtilt, shielding)


I also think you can be a top tier or S tier with an unwinnable MU, or a few bad MUs. Diddy/Samus might be that bad, and he has a few hard counters but he's undeniably top tier.

Luigi's item game is actually pretty good though. Combined that with the fact that he can pick up peels better than most characters given how fast he is on the ground (granted only initial frames of wavedash can pick it up, but he can still get to it pretty quickly). Plus diddy can't really pull a banana out too reliably just because of how fast Luigi approaches on the ground. So diddy has to be a safe distance away to pull one and catch it. And yes, it can hard to approach, but Luigi can also catch a peanut or a banana that diddy throws at him and immediately glide toss (Luigi's is p good) and approach with a wd (nothing guaranteed out of the glide toss -> wd, but it still gives Luigi good stage positioning). Or he can wavedash in with shield and wavedash again out of shield to pick it up (since the banana will land near him if thrown at his shield in most situations) and then glide toss it backwards or forwards. Luigi can also down b and clank with both projectiles, as well (I believe he clanks with banana, but I'll have to test this). Although Luigi has to be ready for it and Diddy can just throw it during the 14 frame of wavedash lag that Luigi commits to. Diddy can also follow up after banana hits shield into a grab or aerial or something. Plus, diddy is able to juggle luigi pretty well because of his air mobility, and he can pop him up there with dtilts and back air.
However, once Luigi has banana in his hand, the matchup can be quite difficult for diddy because of the amount of stage control Luigi gets with it, since he still has his wavedashes and fireball (which he can wavedrop into, which sets up for some pretty interesting setups, i.e. wavedrop fireball -> glide toss -> wd forward, etc). I can see the neutral being favored in diddys side, but Luigi has plenty of tools to contest it, which is why I find it to be even. Diddy is also combo food and edgeguarding him isn't too hard (although edge guarding luigi by diddy shouldn't be too bad either since peanuts stop side b on a dime, where diddy can just go in and dair/fair/etc while Luigi cools down).
Xykness should know the more about it since he has the most experience with Seagull, Envy, and Junebug

 

[steelguttey]

Olimar's SideB is crummy and slow and he can only have 4 pikmin thrown at most. So in this case, jab can beat Oli's Pikmin toss on reaction

Chill with the condescending attitude

pikmin toss is literally olimars best move, it probably defines his neutral. it forces ppl to commit to jumps to hit the pikmin off that we can punish. we can play neutral in other ways, but you can waveland pikmin toss making it a really mobile projectile. also whistle bouncing. puppet smashing. pluck cancelling. fuuuuutuuuure

don't thrown pikmin go through shield

if i see u starting to shield pikmin i can sh throw wavedash in and grab u on reaction if u shield a purple. if u shield another pikmin i can bait your oos option, usually a wavedash tht gets covered by most grabs but purple and red.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Olimar's SideB is crummy and slow and he can only have 4 pikmin thrown at most. So in this case, jab can beat Oli's Pikmin toss on reaction

Chill with the condescending attitude

what lol
the pikmin hitbox comes out on frame 9 (olimar's IASA is also very low, like 26 frames or something)
in fact I think that makes it one of the fastest projectiles
where in hell are you getting the idea it's slow

 

[Xykness]

Campy Diddy beats Luigi 60-40
Aggressive Diddy loses to Luigi 40-60
Thus 50/50

 

[D e l t a]

The thing about Olimar is that he can't use quick GTFO moves like other characters can. Yeah you can throw pikmin at people and hooray it stuck them while you're moving back, but low commitment / low hitlag moves and the pikmin are off and suddenly you need to pluck while the opponent is closing in fast. Or what people should be doing, is abusing the extra hitlag frames, attacking through the pikmin, and having enough active frames to carry over into hitting Olimar, despite his WD back shenanigans.

If you can show me a good player that knows the above and abuses Olimar's poor defensive options when cornered, yet still gets countered by any of the tech you mentioned, I will happily change my mind on the fact that pikmin throw is a projectile rivaled by that of PKF or turnips in the sense that it primarily works on players who don't understand priority or know the proper response to projectiles.

what lol
the pikmin hitbox comes out on frame 9 (olimar's IASA is also very low, like 26 frames or something)
in fact I think that makes it one of the fastest projectiles
where in hell are you getting the idea it's slow

You ignore the part where Olimar has to jump. That's an extra 4 frame jumpsquat making frame perfect pikmin toss frame 14 if he throws on frame 5 when he's airborne. Not to mention the part where the actual pikmin has only begun to start traveling towards the opponent. 14+ frames for a projectile that can be hit through (excluding purple in some cases). This is very similar to Lucas' PKF in terms of distance traveled, and only 5 frames slower.

Trust me, I know that it feels like our projectiles are very fast and at times they can appear that way. I too like to use sideb for baits into shield and jumping, but not everyone will be conditioned to fight this way. Frame data doesn't lie and it reveals that both our projectiles are slow in that sense

 

[TheGravyTrain]

What projectiles actually do work when people are on top of you and pressuring you? The point of projectiles (most good ones anyways) are to poke at dash dance heavy or other styles where your character doesn't have as good of tools to deal with (bar your projectile of course). Can Olimar be weak to aggressive rushdown? Sure, he might be. But expecting his side b to still work against that style is asking for to much. Its job was always to force them to approach. While it isn't on your terms, they are still approaching. Its like, as Link, getting mad that people are hitting you out of the startup of rang or bomb pull. Dont do it at that spacing, use one of your other great neutral tools like Nair or jabs.

Projectiles aren't an end all be all solution, but you are making it sound like PKF/Pikmin toss suck against anybody that knows anything. Maybe its just a style change you need to realize and its not the projectiles fault?

So glad buff/nerf culture is gone. I bet if patches were still being made, this conversation would easily be onto how to buff side b for Lucas, a long time ago.

 

[D e l t a]

What projectiles actually do work when people are on top of you and pressuring you? The point of projectiles (most good ones anyways) are to poke at dash dance heavy or other styles where your character doesn't have as good of tools

Projectiles aren't an end all be all solution, but you are making it sound like PKF/Pikmin toss suck against anybody that knows anything. Maybe its just a style change you need to realize and its not the projectiles fault?

So glad buff/nerf culture is gone. I bet if patches were still being made, this conversation would easily be onto how to buff side b for Lucas, a long time ago.

Lasers & other auto-cancel projectiles work. Bombs and grenades all are good at close range in the sense that you can't mindlessly approach someone with those in range.

As for buffing Lucas' PKF: no. Buffing Lucas' projectile would mean forcing an opponent to approach a rush down heavy character who already has great options, ergo making Lucas more of a pseudo-Fox archetype. See: 3.0 PKF with the grounded auto cancel distance when used just before hitting the ground. Something almost as silly as PKFire activating on shield.

I understand the point of projectiles being something to force opponents to approach as the projectile character typically doesn't have great approach options in the first place. In the case with Olimar, he doesn't have an endless ammo of pikmin. He has a max of 4. So the second he throws one out and it dies, Olimar has to deal with playing extremely defensive and find a way to pluck a pikmin to replenish the one he lost.

 

[steelguttey]

The thing about Olimar is that he can't use quick GTFO moves like other characters can. Yeah you can throw pikmin at people and hooray it stuck them while you're moving back, but low commitment / low hitlag moves and the pikmin are off and suddenly you need to pluck while the opponent is closing in fast. Or what people should be doing, is abusing the extra hitlag frames, attacking through the pikmin, and having enough active frames to carry over into hitting Olimar, despite his WD back shenanigans.

he has a ton of quick gtfo moves, first of all. fair, utilt which has intangibility on his head, yellow fsmash and usmash if you read a jump in, oos nair, and purple side b are all quick moves that are disjointed from olimar (except utilt but thats intangible) that can stop pressure. they arent amazing, and most of them require you to read which way they jump in, but they work really well if you read correctly. the rest of what youre saying is all a matter of positioning, olimar players need to throw pikmin in places where they won't get punished for it and put themselves in a position to punish if the opponent does hit the pikmin off. the hitlag adding more active frames is only adding like, 3 frames max, to the hitbox, and gives the olimar player more time to react, anyway.

If you can show me a good player that knows the above and abuses Olimar's poor defensive options when cornered, yet still gets countered by any of the tech you mentioned, I will happily change my mind on the fact that pikmin throw is a projectile rivaled by that of PKF or turnips in the sense that it primarily works on players who don't understand priority or know the proper response to projectiles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TaH5rmmRFI this is 3.0 footage, but this is one of the best examples of an olimar player using side b correctly. rip ss

You ignore the part where Olimar has to jump. That's an extra 4 frame jumpsquat making frame perfect pikmin toss frame 14 if he throws on frame 5 when he's airborne. Not to mention the part where the actual pikmin has only begun to start traveling towards the opponent. 14+ frames for a projectile that can be hit through (excluding purple in some cases). This is very similar to Lucas' PKF in terms of distance traveled, and only 5 frames slower.

that still doesnt change the frame data of the move, you can still use olimar's side b on the ground, it still has the same godly frame data, you just cant wavedash out of it. which is fine most of the time unless the opponent is dash dancing mid range against you or youre in a situation where you can get punished, and if you jump and side b there then you cant be punished for throwing a pikmin anyway, unless its falcon.

 

[DrinkingFood]

You ignore the part where Olimar has to jump. That's an extra 4 frame jumpsquat making frame perfect pikmin toss frame 14 if he throws on frame 5 when he's airborne. Not to mention the part where the actual pikmin has only begun to start traveling towards the opponent. 14+ frames for a projectile that can be hit through (excluding purple in some cases). This is very similar to Lucas' PKF in terms of distance traveled, and only 5 frames slower.

Trust me, I know that it feels like our projectiles are very fast and at times they can appear that way. I too like to use sideb for baits into shield and jumping, but not everyone will be conditioned to fight this way. Frame data doesn't lie and it reveals that both our projectiles are slow in that sense

But you don't have to jump. That's part of the thing. Pikmin toss is one of the quickest projectiles both in start-up and endlag- by the time he could be punished for a pikmin throw in place, he can act. And if you do jump? It's still one of the quickest lol.

And if you do jump, that doesn't add extra reaction time lol. The jump could just be the beginning of a wavedash, or an aerial approach, or a retreat to a platform, or any number of things. The jump isn't the relevant in terms of commitment, and yet with it you gain tons of horizontal control over one of the quickest projectiles in the game.

This might be one of the most extreme examples of character bias i've ever seen lol. Next you are going to tell me olimar can't kill well or some ****

 

[PlateProp]

But you don't have to jump. That's part of the thing. Pikmin toss is one of the quickest projectiles both in start-up and endlag- by the time he could be punished for a pikmin throw in place, he can act. And if you do jump? It's still one of the quickest lol.

And if you do jump, that doesn't add extra reaction time lol. The jump could just be the beginning of a wavedash, or an aerial approach, or a retreat to a platform, or any number of things. The jump isn't the relevant in terms of commitment, and yet with it you gain tons of horizontal control over one of the quickest projectiles in the game.

This might be one of the most extreme examples of character bias i've ever seen lol. Next you are going to tell me olimar can't kill well or some ****

have you tried killing with yellows

killing with yellows is a *****

 

[Idostuff]

So we're all maining Wolf now right?

 

[DrinkingFood]

im picking him up as a serious secondary since he's not ever getting the adjustments he needed
this character is amazing and i'm too hipster to play fox but I can still play Fox McCloud2: Electric Boogaloo

 

[Ningildo]

have you tried killing with yellows

killing with yellows is a *****

Why are you using yellow/white for killing in the first place? Oli can have kill throws, smashes and aerials provided you have the right pikmin at the time.

But regarding pikmin toss talk, you'd always use it at a distance where you'd not get nair'd for tossing. I guess low commitment moves could work, but most of those tend to cover only a limb or something and not always help getting pikmin off (**** shines).

Btw, if a pikmin does die (after the opponent committed to killing it as well, mind you), Olimar needs a whopping 11 frames to get another one. Pretty sure I mentioned that above. Is getting 11 frames of time hard to get?

Like, campy Oli is far from the best one, but it can definitely work everything considered, given smart play.

**** 4 am posts.

 

[PlateProp]

Why are you using yellow/white for killing in the first place? Oli can have kill throws, smashes and aerials provided you have the right pikmin at the time.

But regarding pikmin toss talk, you'd always use it at a distance where you'd not get nair'd for tossing. I guess low commitment moves could work, but most of those tend to cover only a limb or something and not always help getting pikmin off (**** shines).

Btw, if a pikmin does die (after the opponent committed to killing it as well, mind you), Olimar needs a whopping 11 frames to get another one. Pretty sure I mentioned that above. Is getting 11 frames of time hard to get?

Like, campy Oli is far from the best one, but it can definitely work everything considered, given smart play.

**** 4 am posts.

It was pretty obviously a joke man

 

[_Chrome]

It may or may not result in the advancement of us figuring out how good characters are considering the inherent bias, but it acts at the very least as a starting point and another element to consider for our eventual tier list. It can be a good way to figure out matchups at the very least.

http://smashboards.com/threads/return-of-the-pm-character-survey.379058/page-2#post-20543935

It takes no longer than 15 minutes. It doesn't feel long at all at the very least.

 

[Tarul]

It may or may not result in the advancement of us figuring out how good characters are considering the inherent bias, but it acts at the very least as a starting point and another element to consider for our eventual tier list. It can be a good way to figure out matchups at the very least.

http://smashboards.com/threads/return-of-the-pm-character-survey.379058/page-2#post-20543935

It takes no longer than 15 minutes. It doesn't feel long at all at the very least.

I feel like this survey can be reduced to two pages - the first page (who you are, skill level) and the character matchup page. The rest of it was hard to answer without an example/knowing if someone would actually read it.

Also, questions like "how bad is your character's approach options?" aren't that productive unless we have some sort of standard. Like, who is considered to have the most "average" approach?

 

[_Chrome]

I feel like this survey can be reduced to two pages - the first page (who you are, skill level) and the character matchup page. The rest of it was hard to answer without an example/knowing if someone would actually read it.

Also, questions like "how bad is your character's approach options?" aren't that productive unless we have some sort of standard. Like, who is considered to have the most "average" approach?

I'd be inclined to agree... I remember when this survey originally started last year the data of each individual character was being fed back to the community with powerpoint presentations... it was really ambitious and life happens so Choice Scarf didn't end up completing his work, but to be fair it was a lot of work. Being a self-survey, it will be filled with bias and subjectivity, but those kinds of things can be looked past intelligently and rationally, which is why that information is there in the first place. It also adds some flavour, I find.

As far as an average approach goes, it wouldn't be a slow character like Bowser, one with many options like Fox, or a defensive character like Sheik for sure. Since many characters can have their approaches shut down in a fairly common way (like Ganon or Ness), it'll be hard to pinpoint what the average approach is. I understand that was probably a rhetorical question to point out a flaw of the survey though. Maybe I'm being naive, but perhaps this survey will help us find the standard?

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Hi Guys. I am looking into getting into PM and I'm wondering what the best character for me is.

I like offensive lockdown alot so I am looking at Diddy
I also loved melee marth so maybe PM marth may be the same so I am looking at him
I also love heavy edgeguards
I like characters who are fast as well and can do like zero to deaths as well

 

[Choice Scarf]

As much as I loved the PPT idea, there were just too many things to double check because the survey ironically wasn't clear enough. I had to keep double checking what people were trying to say, and trying to write an overview about characters you have no clue about was not something I could do with the time and knowledge I had.

I wanted to address the time thing first, so the survey is more number based because of that. Last time I had to keep track of who said what and calculate everything manually for the PPT and MU chart, but now that I learned how powerful formulas can work it literally runs itself now. So the tabs that look pretty are understandable and ALWAYS up to date, it just sucks that it doesn't cover all of the survey yet. Once I figure out how to get displays of the less numerical questions, it'll be cool to have the most popular answer like favorite stage or costume or something per character. The stuff akin to advice will be harder and I'm not sure what to do with it yet, but clearly the spreadsheet format makes those hard to read.

And just a general purpose disclaimer, but the survey was originally like this to appeal to the full spectrum of players (casual to competitive) because it's ultimately all OPINIONS~! It always meant to help the player look at the character in and out of the vacuum (or however they decide to interpret it) which can be helpful to those that never though of it before. Everything that it asks you to rate use completely arbitrary numbers, so I don't think the results would be suitable for something like the tier list you guys try to make, but I'm sure that people who probably know what they're talking about like yourselves will help to make the numbers look more accurate, which I appreciate. And that will work even better once I can get weighting to return, so look forward to that I guess.

I'll assume more talk about this is derailing this thread so anyone interested in discussing more can go to the survey's. And @Avro-Arrow Tarul yeah there's probably a true standard hidden in the frame data somewhere, but it would be interesting to see what people's perspective of the standard in general turns out to be and how that may change over time.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

Hi Guys. I am looking into getting into PM and I'm wondering what the best character for me is.

I like offensive lockdown alot so I am looking at Diddy
I also loved melee marth so maybe PM marth may be the same so I am looking at him
I also love heavy edgeguards
I like characters who are fast as well and can do like zero to deaths as well

Hey! Welcome to the community. Diddy and Marth are both solid choices. I personally would suggest you try MK. He is extremely good and has a lot of what you're looking for. He is super fast and has one of the best punishgames, he combos well, techchases extremely well, and edgeguards really well too. With his speed and sword he can really pressure his opponent into making bad decisions if that's your thing, and it sounds like it may be. MK can also just use his oppressively good dash dance to bait and punish. He can also employ a mix of these styles.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Hey! Welcome to the community. Diddy and Marth are both solid choices. I personally would suggest you try MK. He is extremely good and has a lot of what you're looking for. He is super fast and has one of the best punishgames, he combos well, techchases extremely well, and edgeguards really well too. With his speed and sword he can really pressure his opponent into making bad decisions if that's your thing, and it sounds like it may be. MK can also just use his oppressively good dash dance to bait and punish. He can also employ a mix of these styles.

Yeah but I play MK in Smash 4 so idk if i want to play him as well even though he is the perfect character for me! Thanks for your suggestion I think I will try out both Diddy and MK and see who's best for me.

 

[migul]

Hi Guys. I am looking into getting into PM and I'm wondering what the best character for me is.

I like offensive lockdown alot so I am looking at Diddy
I also loved melee marth so maybe PM marth may be the same so I am looking at him
I also love heavy edgeguards
I like characters who are fast as well and can do like zero to deaths as well

Wolf has a lot of the stuff you're looking for. His offensive pressure is outstanding, his laser is awesome for passively controling interactions, and his combo/juggle game is immaculate. He's just really frickin' hard, but I think it's well worth the effort, cause he is really fun.