Tier List Speculation

[KinGly]

As someone who likes heavies it's basically over. Bottom tier forever

Ike and Ganon are pretty good. Don't know if they're really heavys though. They're heavyish.

 

[Life]

So Link is bad in another smash game again... I would say I'm fine with this. Having given much of the last 5 years to this game. Checking reddit and smash boards for years everyday. Discussing and playing with friends. It all kinda feels sureal. I big part of my life just ended abruptly for seemingly no reason. Now I have to find some other hobby.

So, I'm kinda upset about link staying bad again. He was so close to being fixed. He will have his broken grab forever now. Pretty ridiculous.

I mean as long as Blue keeps beating most of AZ

 

[nimigoha]

Time to solder my controller to jump with Z and grab with X so I can school nerds in Melee I guess.

 

[Saproling]

I mean as long as Blue keeps beating most of AZ

That isn't a good measure of character skill at all and you know it.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

maybe if az learned how to DI

 

[Life]

That isn't a good measure of character skill at all and you know it.

Of course I know it. Almost every character in PM has won a local somewhere.

However, as long as you're like "lol my character is bad" you're never going to see results. Make your character work, switch to someone else, or accept mediocrity. (Yes, the parallels to my opinions on Pit are fairly obvious here. I picked the second one.)

It all depends on your goals with the character and with yourself.

 

[MLGF]

Oh hey guys

All Ike's can now start implementing grounded QD from ledge without any fear of nerfs
~Hope you all love never being able to recover~

 

[ImCarlSagan]

Ike and Ganon are pretty good. Don't know if they're really heavys though. They're heavyish.

Right, so the only heavy characters that are O.K. are the ones that aren't extremely big.


PMDT please this is terrible and saddening.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

the year is 20PM

ganon is the dominant force in the metagame, but only on small stages. any stage strike to warioware, fod, or yoshi's results in a ganon ditto, where all four stocks are taken by ganoncides. attempting to play versus ganon on these small stages results in a guaranteed loss. ganon moves to the top of the tierlist simply because he is a necessity in the 20PM metagame.

sarcasm but I think we might start seeing a few more pocket ganons

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Right, so the only heavy characters that are O.K. are the ones that aren't extremely big.


PMDT please this is terrible and saddening.

"PMDT IS NO MORE"

Nintendo?!? vs. PMDT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=El0B0eO_5PY

^Why couldn't it have gone like this?

 

[xLithiumx]

I just wish we could've gotten 4.0

1. It just irks me if the version numbers aren't .5 or .0
2. I was waiting on some nerfs for Fox and GnW

 

[Ningildo]

I just wish we could've gotten 4.0

1. It just irks me if the version numbers aren't .5 or .0
2. I was waiting on some nerfs for Fox and GnW

Personally, I think that everyone should focus on working with the tools that they currently have rather than advocating for buffs/nerfs. It seriously stagnates your development when you rationalize your losses by saying, "my character needs buffs." If you think that your character has impending buffs, or an opponent of yours has impending nerfs, playing with a sour attitude saying, "I can't wait for the next patch when XYZ is changed" is just going to hinder your growth as a player.

For the past several pages this thread has been nothing but people complaining about how weak their character is and how they would buff them. Instead of that, how does your character stand in the current meta game? What strengths does your character have that maybe you're failing to consider? Put the buff/nerf discussion to the side for a minute and focus on what is actually in front of you. Don't focus so much on the future, focus on the now.

I understand that your character may be lacking a particular strength, but that doesn't mean that they don't have tools elsewhere. And maybe, if you didn't have such severe tunnel vision about what is good and what is bad, you would discover something that you haven't considered before. There is a lot of untapped potential out there.

There is a critical flaw that many people have when they're playing Smash. Players often get distracted mid set, thinking about the outcome. "Oh wow, I'm two stocks up game three against the top player in my region. I just need to close it out." They get distracted thinking about the result, they start playing unsafe because they're so concerned about the outcome, and they stop playing the way that put them in that position in the first place. A similar string of logic applies here; do not worry so much about what is to come, focus on what you have and what you can do with that. You will improve as a player.

Talking about proposed changes is fine, and I don't want to discourage that entirely. I would just rather see a discussion of current character strengths. Maybe that's just me.

Relevant.

 

[Soft Serve]

That isn't a good measure of character skill at all and you know it.

blue beat aero this weekend lmao

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Now that PM won't change, you all will have to deal with this version of Luigi forever. Let the salt commence mwahahahahaha

 

[PlateProp]

DrinkingFood looks like you got your wish on Squirtle's tech rolls never changing

 

[Farquaad]

^Yeah, bummer

Jokes on everyone else, Squirtle is broken good regardless

 

[DrinkingFood]

problem is he's still in the game

 

[JesteRace]

Now that PM won't change, you all will have to deal with this version of Luigi forever. Let the salt commence mwahahahahaha

Yeah, I've been dual-maining Luigi and Link forever and now Link will probably be relegated to counterpick status lol

 

[trash?]

meta knight is good in the final version

all is not lost

 

[Player -0]

Pit forever has the worst D-Smash.

Still just wow though.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

^ *up Smash. Lol. Guess it's for aerial opponents without SDI only.

 

[ZombieBran]

Poor Zelda
Now she'll never be good in a Smash game ever again.

 

[D e l t a]

At least Lucas didn't get nerfed again and now people will learn GnW counterplay

 

[didds]

Nice to play under the radar characters now, glad they've barely been touched

 

[zen-bz-]

Alright.
This game won't die. I refuse to let it.
I'm going to train hard and learn Lucas in and out. No changes to worry about.
We can win. Project M will not die.

 

[Bazkip]

Just realized we're going to have to deal with NTSC Firefox forever

GOD DAMMIT PMDT WHY DIDN'T YOU EVER CHANGE IT TO PAL

 

[Boiko]

If you guys say so.

Anyway, I said I wouldn't, but I got bored and made a tier list. Based a bit on results, plus potential, lots of opinion:

I would like to repost my most recent tier list here. Please tell me what you think. Let's get some discussion going.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I would like to repost my most recent tier list here. Please tell me what you think. Let's get some discussion going.

puff is clearly just as viable as fox because hbox won dreamhack you ****ing fraud jesus learn to no johns

:hippo:

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

I would like to repost my most recent tier list here. Please tell me what you think. Let's get some discussion going.

I think you're underestimating Ike, Pikachu, and Snake and mayyyybe DK, but other than that I can agree with it

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Boiko Personally, I think you've underrated Sonic and Luigi, although, they are very unexplored characters. For Sonic, I think that with a little freshening up of our defensive games and meta development over the years, we're going to have a very deadly character on our hands. Yeah, he's still probably never going to win the match up against Wofl, Fox, and Marth, and I think Falcons are going to learn how to clean him up, but he has the tools to deal with most characters in the game effectively with a little experience under your belt. At the moment I think it's this lack of match up knowledge and clean game play that's leading Sonics to rush in or mis-space in neutral. He should have a pretty flat match up spread I think.

As for Luigi, the amount of space he threatens is huuuge! I probably misunderstand a lot about him, and I really do want to learn more about him, but I think his techs like varying WD length, wavescuttling and other stuff lend him the ability to deal with probably most everything in neutral. He was still good in Melee, although he was shut down by Marth's (hasn't changed) and Sheik's neutral games, although the Sheik match up, as well as the Fox and Falco match ups, have become more than marginally easier to say the least. Not only was his recovery buffed, but so were his overall movement, combo ability (into saved misfire, although I've heard it's not that good since it loses a little strength), and his ftilt which serves as a nice poke to catch recovering opponents or to clip them upon landing. Let's not forget that all of those characters were nerfed as well: Sheik's follow-ups out of dthrow aren't quite as polarizing, Falco's lasers are slightly less polarizing, and Fox's shine/usmash/lasers were all nerfed. As a result, Luigi has a boost in endurance against these characters, and this endurance enables him more opportunities to capitalize on neutral-game mistakes and go into his combos. I don't think he wins these match ups per say, but they're definitely an example of how he's changed and shed light on possibly how well he can do against other characters.

Hopefully I'm not totally out to lunch (speaking of...), but I'd love to be set straight if I am.

Edit: ThegreatVaporeon1 I could get behind moving up Pika and DK too; what are your reasons for thinking that?

 

[Boiko]

Regarding Ike: Does Ike have a meaningful way to circumvent dash dancing or projectiles/disjoint that shut down his movement options? To me it seems that he struggles with a lot of the characters above him (with the exception of Samus), simply because he has to overcommit to get something started.

Regarding Snake: I think that Snake will begin to taper off a bit when players are more capable of dealing with his projectile spam and stage control. He does have a lot of strengths, but I don't think they are much stronger than B tier/low A tier.

Regarding Sonic: I will admit that I don't know much about Sonic. I'm looking forward to seeing his meta develop more.

Regarding Luigi: Luigi still suffers from the fact that he can really only approach on one plane. Any character that can limit his movement or air camp him is probably going to give him a hard time. Real top level Luigi players have great platform utilization to supplement their limited ground game (see XYK vs. Junebug). Although Luigi's approaches are limited, they are not necessarily bad. I think that if you can really shut down his grounded options, and pin him down, he'll crumble. And I don't think it is that hard to really pin him down.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

And how many characters have an easy time shutting him down? Off the top of my head I can think of Wario through air camping, Marth, Falcon, and MK through a combination of air camping and ground control. I can't think of anyone who can pin him down without a huge disjoint or air camping at the moment.

 

[_Chrome]

I'm not sure I can get behind Dedede being more viable than the likes of DK, Puff, Charizard, and Link (the latter two which I have quite a bit of experience with: especially Link). What is your reasoning for Dedede being outside of the bottom tier as well as being better than those characters?

Also, could you shed some light on Diddy being higher than Wolf? This more nitpicking, but it's a relatively unpopular opinion/judgment but I do trust the way you see the game so I would like an explanation.

On the subject of nitpicking, is Zero Suit Samus really more powerful than Wario, if only slightly so? I am glad you see them as potent characters as well, which is in accordance with the rushed, nooby and ignored tier list I posted last page.

Thank you in advance for responding to us and for getting the discussion back on track. Ow, my fingers hurt. Stupid phone.

 

[Sardonyx]

I guess it's time to pick up Zelda again and solo main her now that I don't have to worry about meaningless nerfs. K I C K B O Y S

 

[Justbngoode]

I would like to repost my most recent tier list here. Please tell me what you think. Let's get some discussion going.

Zelda 2low.
I've been a hater for a while, but let's be real she's not bottom 3 material.
She get's countered pretty hard by FE characters and TL, but she has pretty above average MU's against some of the melee characters (Including Fox, i've said that MU is slight disadvantage for a long time). She counters Wolf pretty well, and does the same for falco. As stupid as upsmash chains are, that's guaranteed percentage for around ~50% on most characters, and can be hit confirmed off of ftilt, one of her safest normals. Past that Din's fire still has large amounts of untapped potential, orbitals, timed explosions, and the 28 frame explosion mixup dubbed "Premature Detonation" (If Zelda manually detonates while the din is white, timed explosion is triggered) gives her a fair amount of potential in future meta.

And I haven't even talked about Shielda (mainly because I detest Sheik).

She really isn't bad, her design was just inconsistent. I'll advocate her strengths in hope of changing some opinions. Saying "lol zelda's bad" isn't going to get Zelda Mains anywhere, it's just going to kill our character.

 

[Tarul]

I would like to repost my most recent tier list here. Please tell me what you think. Let's get some discussion going.

I'm curious about your placement of Mario in B tier.

People usually like to say that Mario is the jack-of-all-trades, master of none. But in reality, he's pretty darn good at everything, minus his smallish limbs.

While he isn't fast, he has great wavelands and a pretty decent dash-dance. His fireballs also help make up for his slight slowness.

His combo game is described by many as "mini-Falcon," he has chaingrabs and throw follow-ups at specific percentages, he has a strong crouch cancel thanks to d-tilt and d-smash, and his edgeguards are some of the best thanks to cape and bair.

Finally, his recovery has 7(?) frames of invincibility and has stall potential with cape.

While B tier is by no means bad, Mario doesn't have the major weaknesses of the other characters in the same tier (Ike - projectiles, Ness - shielding, Sonic - hitbox priority) outside of lack of disjoint, and this is largely circumvented by his fireballs and decent mobility. In fact, Mario's matchup spreadsheet is also really good against most of the cast, and he does very well against the S tier of characters (who theoretically will become predominant in the metagame).

 

[lordvaati]

I guess with the news, after 3.6 you can finally truly make the definitive Tier List 1.0?

 

[Jonyc128]

Also speaking about Mario, most don't know that the landing hitbox of dair that pops people up has set KB, and almost always leads into a useful followup.
On Fast fallers, you can JC grab or fsmash
On Semi Fast fallers you can fsmash or fair
Semi Floaties, you can fair
On Floaties sans Jiggs, you can immediate jump -> fair
On Jiggs, immediate double jump -> Fair

It's super useful if they missed techs on platforms, or you just want to catch them slipping

Not to mention it autocancels, so unless you hit the opponent's shield, you're safe on whiff

 

[Life]

I guess with the news, after 3.6 you can finally truly make the definitive Tier List 1.0?

Not really. Or at least, not as things stand right now. Or rather, no "Tier List 1.0" has ever been particularly good?...

A factor people don't really consider for PM is local metagame variety. If your local lacks a PR-level Marth, you're much more likely to find success with Ivysaur, for instance. But this can't reasonably be factored into a tier list for the game itself, because you could suddenly move to one of the regions with a good Marth and now you're gonna have a bad time.

Melee has had a lot of time to develop, a smaller cast with a much wider power gap between the top and bottom tier, more multi-regional tournaments to allow metagames to cross-pollinate, and people *still* don't really agree on much.

Even if we had a PMBR (as in not a dev team but in the style of the Melee and Brawl backrooms) that made official tier lists, we'd probably go through like a dozen before we had even an idea of what was going on.

 

[FreeGamer]

let the games begin

maybe some day i can convince you people to stop putting kirby in the bottom 5 >_<