Tier List Speculation

[ZombieBran]

I guess it's time to pick up Zelda again and solo main her now that I don't have to worry about meaningless nerfs. K I C K B O Y S

One of the only silver linings about this whole thing.

Before I downloaded each PM update, I wondered "how did they manage to nerf Zelda this time?"
Now I don't have to worry about my barely viable princess being nerfed anymore!

 

[nimigoha]

Not really. Or at least, not as things stand right now. Or rather, no "Tier List 1.0" has ever been particularly good?...

A factor people don't really consider for PM is local metagame variety. If your local lacks a PR-level Marth, you're much more likely to find success with Ivysaur, for instance. But this can't reasonably be factored into a tier list for the game itself, because you could suddenly move to one of the regions with a good Marth and now you're gonna have a bad time.

Melee has had a lot of time to develop, a smaller cast with a much wider power gap between the top and bottom tier, more multi-regional tournaments to allow metagames to cross-pollinate, and people *still* don't really agree on much.

Even if we had a PMBR (as in not a dev team but in the style of the Melee and Brawl backrooms) that made official tier lists, we'd probably go through like a dozen before we had even an idea of what was going on.

Locals play into this a lot. Ontario thinks DK is really really good because they have one on the PR. They HATE Ike for the same reason, seem to be way more salty about him than DK though.

Matchup numbers posted by good players, as arbitrary as they may be, is the only thing that will give a good idea.

 

[prem]

I think DK is really good because Thunderz is in my region.

though ive also thought about it a lot and tested some things for me to say DK is pretty perfect as he is anyway

 

[_Chrome]

Maybe us Ontarians just suck against the Kong... I see him being about as good as Link who isn't that great either.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Michigan hates Squirtle and thinks something crazy like top 10 because of based Dirtboy.

 

[Life]

And because your local metagames are all different, the tier list itself becomes different when you go to a different area, because not all matchups will have the same weight. Even having a complete and accurate matchup chart, which is nowhere near to being a thing despite a certain someone's best efforts, you'd still have to weight those matchups by the popularity of characters among your local's best players.

This effect will continue until a sufficient (and knowing this game, probably pretty big) number of national tournaments make it clear which characters are actually better than others, at which point local metagames will start to conform to that somewhat since everyone has a better idea of which cast members will give them an edge; or until the matchup chart is figured out to the point where people start to pick up secondaries just to hard counter each other, meaning you could have any bad matchup thrown at you at any time and the characters that are least vulnerable to a hard counterpick float to the top.

The latter reason is why I judge characters with many slightly bad matchups to be better than characters with one or two common hard counters. You are as strong as your weakest link. (Although I occasionally question the wisdom of this philosophy. In a long tournament, eventually several slightly uphill fights will take their toll on your stamina, no? Is it harder to climb one mountain or a thousand hills?)

 

[steelguttey]

well we have to stop asking for changes now so we can start talking about the game

or in other words, goodbye tasteless gentleman

 

[Player -0]

inb4 the salt.

Also can we make blood pact agreeing this thread will only talk about v3.6 Full? I mean like, we don't go down the road of the other mods.

 

[trash?]

more genuine post: I have no cares about fox anymore

all my frustration came from the fact that fox was always good throughout versions while everyone else was modified on a whim, so people's research on new characters could be gutted in one stroke, while fox players could do the same things they've been building up for over a decade...

...but now, everyone has all the time in the world to find out how to beat out a fox. and there's no patch to stop that fact.

this'll be much more interesting to look into

 

[1FD]

should have buffed wolf harder

this is cool in some ways and not in other ways tho for real

 

[xLithiumx]

I think Wolf is fine for the most part. He's still one of the best in the game for sure. He's got great kill moves, many kill moves at that, and he combos the best out of all the space animals imo. Plus, even if his side b was nerfed it's only slightly limited.

 

[Life]

Friendly reminder that Wolf can hypothetically maintain full invincibility indefinitely while firing lasers.

 

[Ogopogo]

Wolf's pretty good. But his meta has barely been developed besides the obvious stuff. I think now that 3.6 is final, characters will start to be fleshed out more. Low lasers, DI mixups, people getting better at punishes overall, techchasing (THE FUTURE!!!), etc. People will finally learn how to edgeguard him and stuff but Wolf is only getting better from here on out.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

question because I don't keep up with PM

is curbee bad? all I see when I view stuff regarding him is how he was nerfed or something

 

[Saproling]

Play the game and figure how good he is.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Play the game and figure how good he is.

i'm gonna come to your house, eat you and then jump off a cliff

 

[xquqx]

i'm gonna come to your house, eat you and then jump off a cliff

Nah, they nerfed kirbicides, can't do that anymore.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

While B tier is by no means bad, Mario doesn't have the major weaknesses of the other characters in the same tier (Ike - projectiles, Ness - shielding, Sonic - hitbox priority) outside of lack of disjoint, and this is largely circumvented by his fireballs and decent mobility

Worth mentioning that Ike is also weak to well-spaced dash dancing: spacing yourself just outside of his sword's range and too close for him to safely charge QD makes him very uncomfortable. Ike's strengths (bar recovery) lie in primarily three things:

1) QD Movement/follow-ups
2) Big range, heavy-hitting sword
3) Great conversions off of grab (Glad we can't hear people ask for release point buffs anymore amirite?)

Obviously being outside of Ragnell's range means you're ungrabable as well. All you have to do is wait. Ike's sword is heavy, and there's quite a bit of start-up and/or endlag on all of his moves. This means that as soon as he whiffs something, you can punish. Ergo, Ike is weak to good dash dancing too.

As for Sonic, I can safely say that the Sonic community as a whole thinks that a simple cleaning up (akin to 20GX I suppose), along with some clever exploration of his depth, is enough to circumvent any of his weaknesses against defensive walls in general no matter what their origin is. I will concede and say Mario is possibly better than Sonic, if his match ups against supposed top tiers remain to be seen as better than Sonic's are now, who struggles against Fox, Wolf and MK (as well as Falcon [optimized], Marth, and Samus). However, it's worth noting that at least atm, the outlook for Sonic is strong endgame-wise. If you know the match up, the better player will win. Straight up, bar the five match ups I listed Sonic's spread is very very flat.

In that facet, if Sonic loses to hitbox priority, so does Mario since he's so stubby. Okay, maybe that's not true, but Sonic is able to circumvent this problem theoretically with sick movement and sick movement only.

let the games begin

maybe some day i can convince you people to stop putting kirby in the bottom 5 >_<

Good luck with that. If anything, I see Kirby's effectiveness diminishing in PM's future meta game, since people'll be able to adapt to his gimmicks maybe and Kirby doesn't do spectacularly against Fox/Wolf/MK/Diddy/Rob anyways.

Although it'll always be funny to see Kirby wreck Sheik, Ike, ZSS and Ganon (?) lol. Especially Sheik, Ms. Low Tier Slayer herself, circa Melee. Quite the reversal, don't you think?

Edit: X xquqx Just watch him. Watch him go, slip under the door, gobble him faster than a fat kid (Ness) on a Smartie, waddle to the ledge, and tumble off into oblivion. Pure, raw beauty.

 

[_Chrome]

Edit: X xquqx Just watch him. Watch him go, slip under the door, gobble him faster than Wario on a Squirtle, waddle to the ledge, and tumble off into oblivion. Pure, raw beauty.

That sounds chu good to be chu... Wait that didn't come out right. What I meant to say was that sounds chu good to be chu. There. Much better.

 

[Saproling]

i'm gonna come to your house, eat you and then jump off a cliff

Ill be waiting.

 

[nimigoha]

Friendly reminder that Wolf can hypothetically maintain full invincibility indefinitely while firing SLOW, LOW RANGE, CLANKABLE lasers.

Just make sure he never gets a lead!

 

[Player -0]

So tasteless gentleman seems to have officially bailed this thread and is clamouring for 3.6+/new(fake)PMDT.

Kinda funny, just checked general discussion.

To be honest this slippery slope Project M is sliding down might shift into freefall soon with the fakeDT and everything else.

 

[Lunchmanalchemist]

Can we please get back to tier list discussion?






I already added Ridley and Pichu with BrawlEx

 

[Jamwa]

i hope we all stick to 3.6

 

[SlurpySloth]

To be honest this slippery slope Project M is sliding down might shift into freefall soon with the fakeDT and everything else.

Yeah, but what's exactly wrong with 150+ Sonic OC's?

 

[Life]

Yeah, but what's exactly wrong with 150+ Sonic OC's?

I dunno...

Having too many people in the game makes it feel less personnel.

So, uh, Mewtwo's pretty good, guys.

 

[_Chrome]

Mewtwo is pretty good. Does anybody have any real thoughts on him? I see him being really good... I just can't back it up. Anyone know anything about Mewtwo around here?

 

[KinGly]

There were a couple of mewtwos at the TLOC 1k who did really well, Frozen and Fuzz, so there's that to go off of for recent tourneys, but besides that I don't see/hear of many m2 players making it far in big tourneys. He's such a weird character imo so no one really puts time into him other than a select few as far as I can tell.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

mewtwo is stupid good but so far only frozen has really scratched the surface

if there's a top tier mewtwo is in it

if you search mewtwo in this thread and go back a year or so or even back to 3.02 there's a bunch of posts by nausicaa and the like theorycrafting how scary mewtwo is even not incorporating the woop-woop that emukiller was doing

back in 3.02 it was generally accepted that m2k was winning with m2 based off of his melee mewtwo skill, his fundamentals, and his tail
emukiller was winning off of woop woop and float nair

and neither of those players had any true idea what they were doing with mewtwo

mewtwo has close to as much ground mobility as luigi/squirtle plus a literal teleport that can be edgecancelled plus added air mobility, a djc, and a 360 degree float which can be used to float cancel and easily edgecancelled to regain its usage as well as regaining a teleport, coupled with disjoint and projectiles that are both really good

mewtwo is scary

 

[nimigoha]

mewtwo is stupid good but so far only frozen has really scratched the surface

if there's a top tier mewtwo is in it

if you search mewtwo in this thread and go back a year or so or even back to 3.02 there's a bunch of posts by nausicaa and the like theorycrafting how scary mewtwo is even not incorporating the woop-woop that emukiller was doing

back in 3.02 it was generally accepted that m2k was winning with m2 based off of his melee mewtwo skill, his fundamentals, and his tail
frozen was winning off of woop woop

and neither of those players had any true idea what they were doing with mewtwo

mewtwo has close to as much ground mobility as luigi/squirtle plus a literal teleport that can be edgecancelled plus added air mobility, a djc, and a 360 degree float which can be used to float cancel and easily edgecancelled to regain its usage as well as regaining a teleport, coupled with disjoint and projectiles that are both really good

mewtwo is scary

Do you mean Emukiller was winning off of woop woop?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Do you mean Emukiller was winning off of woop woop?

lol fuq

 

[ImCarlSagan]

Is this thread strictly for 3.6, or does 3.61 count too? Link and Yoshi are a tad better off in 3.61, right? I'm not sure if there are other differences.

 

[nimigoha]

We are not discussing anything or anyone past 3.6.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

this is a forum for project m, not unofficial fan mods thereof

this sounds hella hypocritical after all I've said about melee ever in my life but

at this point the consensus, as well as the wishes of the dev team, is that 3.6 is the final edition and should be treated as and played as such

the night is dark and lonely and the beasts are many but if we huddle for warmth and protection we will make it through to a glorious new day

 

[xquqx]

So I've seen Squirtle really low on everyone's lists, and I've lurked long enough to know that Squirtle mains love to talk about how terrible Squirtle is, but why? Squirtle is basically the most mobile character in the game, with crazy movement both in the air and on the ground, and he seems like he has a bunch of good moves to go with that mobility. So what makes him so apparently bad?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

So I've seen Squirtle really low on everyone's lists, and I've lurked long enough to know that Squirtle mains love to talk about how terrible Squirtle is, but why? Squirtle is basically the most mobile character in the game, with crazy movement both in the air and on the ground, and he seems like he has a bunch of good moves to go with that mobility. So what makes him so apparently bad?

ahahahahahahahahaha

don't listen to what squirtle mains (plate) say
if you think squirtle is great go play him and discover his strengths and weaknesses for yourself

also I think squirtle mains have moved away from that and now tend to focus on individual pieces of their kit, mainly feeling that their dsmash/dtilt/other moves are a little bit lackluster when compared to the rest of their kit

 

[FreeGamer]

question because I don't keep up with PM

is curbee bad? all I see when I view stuff regarding him is how he was nerfed or something

that is the consensus right now, unfortunately

 

[Kapapanerp]

So now that we have a static metagame where do you guys think will end up on the tier list? I personally think he has the potential to be top 5 easily, maybe even SS tier with proper optimization considering how bonkers his tool kit is. Things that come to mind specifically are B-air WoP, HC N-air and the mind boggling amount of options he has off ledge. I've only managed to take 3rd at my tiny locals though, so maybe someone with a bit more experience can back this up better than me.

 

[Crizor]

Someone listed this as a bug in 3.6, "Zard Glide Cancel - b reversing inconsistancies", does anyone know exactly what this is? I've never had reverse glide cancel mess up for me.

 

[Ripple]

the answer to your first thought is no, they aren't.


and I'm serious about that tier gap. you will never see those characters past round 2 in tournament anymore unless someone is trolling or its me with DDD counterpicking a FE/spacie