Tier list alternative - Rate the characters! (experienced players only)

[AlexBarry]

i can agree with most of this, pikas Usmash fixes Jiggly too with Thunder....plus with jigglies ****ty horizontal recovery simple edge gaurding works wonders

vertical...

Pikachu-10
Kirby-9.5
Fox-9.0
Falcon-8.5
Ness-7.5
Luigi-7.0
Mario-7.0
Yoshi-7.0
Samus-6.5
Jigglypuff-6.5
DK-6.0
Link-6.0

 

[Surri-Sama]

vertical...

Pikachu-10
Kirby-9.5
Fox-9.0
Falcon-8.5
Ness-7.5
Luigi-7.0
Mario-7.0
Yoshi-7.0
Samus-6.5
Jigglypuff-6.5
DK-6.0
Link-6.0

i will admit to getting those wrong quite often but i know this is not that time...

horizontal would be <--------------->


Vertical would be...wel the opposite

BUT remember they measure the opposite...

maybe?

honestly i dont know but i think thats how it works...so hoizontal gain would be up and down...while vertical gain would be left and right? O_o

 

[greenblob]

Yeah, Jiggs has good horizontal recovery with rising pounds. Her vertical recovery is the one that's extremely vulnerable.

I say we come up with an "official" Smashboards tier list by the end of the year (or perhaps next year) to replace the old and outdated Gamefaqs one. We could come up with a committee who would vote on the tier list.

 

[Surri-Sama]

ok i was wrong...>_< oops

but that means Alex was right!!!!!!!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

o

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Yeah, Jiggs has good horizontal recovery with rising pounds. Her vertical recovery is the one that's extremely vulnerable.

I say we come up with an "official" Smashboards tier list by the end of the year (or perhaps next year) to replace the old and outdated Gamefaqs one. We could come up with a committee who would vote on the tier list.

good idea. January 1'st......New Smash 64 Tier.

Speaking of previous posts
Well its vertical, rising pound helps but barely, Jigglypuff is one of the best approaching from above while recovering but from down below, a simple spike can badly hurt or even easily kill her. Jiggs doesn't have the range with her aerials and i have seen constant times Jigglypuff getting gimped from my falcon's down air or mario's down air

 

[infernovia]

I love shine spiking jiggly. Instant death.

Jiggs is so vulnerable (its probably more noticeable because people don't understand the concept of uairing while jumping) that I do falcon kicks/other awesometacular gimps.

How do you guys beat a good ness? I have always had trouble with that kid. His aerial priority + utilt + juggles = really tough. Also, he also has really cool tech chases making it difficult to break out of dair.

 

[Superstar]

Pray to God you can grab him and throw him off? Once he's off stage he's pretty dead meat.

And don't try to fight him on Kongo Jungle. I <3 that course for Ness.

And I tried Jiggs recently. Hot secks. <3 Vertical recovery is poop though.

 

[infernovia]

I was hoping for more spacing / in depth analysis, but w/e. Thanks for the advice.

 

[greenblob]

good idea. January 1'st......New Smash 64 Tier.

Speaking of previous posts
Well its vertical, rising pound helps but barely, Jigglypuff is one of the best approaching from above while recovering but from down below, a simple spike can badly hurt or even easily kill her. Jiggs doesn't have the range with her aerials and i have seen constant times Jigglypuff getting gimped from my falcon's down air or mario's down air

We should start nominating people for the committee.

If you wish to nominate someone, submit that person's name and a brief description of why that person should be on the tier list committee. You can nominate yourself as well.

Meanwhile, discussion should continue as usual. You don't need to be on the committee to talk about where a certain character should be on the tier list. Who knows--you may persuade someone.

 

[Surri-Sama]

We should start nominating people for the committee.

If you wish to nominate someone, submit that person's name and a brief description of why that person should be on the tier list committee. You can nominate yourself as well.

Meanwhile, discussion should continue as usual. You don't need to be on the committee to talk about where a certain character should be on the tier list. Who knows--you may persuade someone.

this idea wont work because some people who look like they know what they are talking about DONT know...and vise versa

plus bias will keep people from being nominated

No one ever gets pursuaded..people dont listen here...

"typical arguement"--->"counter point"---> "same old arguement"

ugh smash64 section...

 

[Superstar]

So, apparently, people don't know anything about classical arguments? Where you try to persuade your points, but when a superior point is passed you accept it? People tend to think there is only right and wrong.

Also, since I've toyed with more characters AND improved, I'd like to change my submission. Might suck more though.

Old:

Pikachu - 10
Fox - 9
Kirby - 8.5
Captain Falcon - 8 [swap with Kirby?]
Ness - 7
Mario - 6
Jiggs - 5
Luigi - 4
DK - 2.5
Yoshi - 2
Link - 1.5
Samus - 0

New:

Pikachu - 10
Kirby - 9
Fox - 8.5
Captain Falcon - 8 [swap with Kirby?]
Ness - 7
Mario - 6
Jiggs - 5
Luigi - 4
Yoshi - 3
DK - 2.5
Link - 1
Samus - 0

[all is declarations are IMO stuff, I just want it readable]

Yah, migiht still suck or suck worse, but personally, the gap from Link to higher up is greater than I originally though, Kirby indeed is better than Fox AT least for recovery and he's harder to combo, Ness still is better than Mario, Jiggs is awesome, I tried Yoshi recently and DK and I did better with Yoshi and he moves much smoother personally so I'll shoot him higher. Gap between DK and Link seems to be larger than I thought.

Yeah.

 

[Surri-Sama]

So, apparently, people don't know anything about classical arguments? Where you try to persuade your points, but when a superior point is passed you accept it? People tend to think there is only right and wrong.

Also, since I've toyed with more characters AND improved, I'd like to change my submission. Might suck more though.

Old:



New:

Pikachu - 10
Kirby - 9
Fox - 8.5
Captain Falcon - 8 [swap with Kirby?]
Ness - 7
Mario - 6
Jiggs - 5
Luigi - 4
Yoshi - 3
DK - 2.5
Link - 1
Samus - 0

[all is declarations are IMO stuff, I just want it readable]

Yah, migiht still suck or suck worse, but personally, the gap from Link to higher up is greater than I originally though, Kirby indeed is better than Fox AT least for recovery and he's harder to combo, Ness still is better than Mario, Jiggs is awesome, I tried Yoshi recently and DK and I did better with Yoshi and he moves much smoother personally so I'll shoot him higher. Gap between DK and Link seems to be larger than I thought.

Yeah.

well about your "arguement system" the way i see a DEBATE about a char should be

Opinion-->counter opinion--> Support for opinion--> Counter point--> Counter point to support first opinion

...do this untill someone cant support any more and youll usually be where the right answer is only problem is like i said

Opinion--> Counter opinion-->Support for opinion--> Counter point-->back to opinion...

WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! why cant people here see simple things D:

and your tier list looks ok, i would say though, Yoshi is far above DK, and DK is far above link...Link and Samus both fail...but Samus fails more

P.S.: "no it doesnt" or "Yes it does" are not strong counter points

 

[Superstar]

Surri, that happens because there is no good counter argument for the first argument, and people are too stubborn to see that. How can you do a counter point if your argument sucks.

You know, I have to agree. Might as well redo it since I agree, before the changes are redone:

Pikachu - 10
Kirby - 9
Fox - 8.5
Captain Falcon - 8 [swap with Kirby?]
Ness - 7
Mario - 6
Jiggs - 5
Luigi - 4
Yoshi - 3
DK - 1.5
Link - 0.5
Samus - 0

I'll get more solid opinions later, I guess.

 

[Shaeman111]

THANK u,
jeez everyones putting link after samus
WRONG WRONG WRONG@@!@!@!@

Link has a better chance at combo, better projectiles, faster, and almost just as bad recovery!

and link has better killing moves

 

[Tamoo]

for the jiggs debate- this is a vid of me playin jiggs when i was more of a noob, and not able 2 do ATs due to not knowing the timing on the keyboard. This shows clearly the weaknesses of jiggly, but also some of the advantages she has.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=M9Cg56hHWjk

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

for the jiggs debate- this is a vid of me playin jiggs when i was more of a noob, and not able 2 do ATs due to not knowing the timing on the keyboard. This shows clearly the weaknesses of jiggly, but also some of the advantages she has.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=M9Cg56hHWjk

single matches and people don't influence how the tier list plays out.

Like if you watch Peek, samus looks like a god.

Or if you watch Matts!, kirby looks like a completely nubbish character.

Or if you watch my Yoshi, yoshi looks mid-tier.

Or if you watch Isai, any character looks top tier.

Its overall.

 

[Tamoo]

yeah i know that, of course im not goin to base the tier list on how i play, but i was just showin sum of the weaknesses and strengths of jiggly since theres been like 2 pages of banter on her

 

[Superstar]

THANK u,
jeez everyones putting link after samus
WRONG WRONG WRONG@@!@!@!@

Link has a better chance at combo, better projectiles, faster, and almost just as bad recovery!

and link has better killing moves

Link still sucks though. Just...not as much as Samus. XD But I'm sure you know that, since if you didn't you'd tell me Link should be higher.

 

[CaptainFalconMaster]

But link is not as fast as samus. samus almost has similar moves as falcon !!

 

[Shaeman111]

Link still sucks though. Just...not as much as Samus. XD But I'm sure you know that, since if you didn't you'd tell me Link should be higher.

Link should be higher.

Just kidding. Seriously though, link does suck. but i'm defending his right to NOT BE BOTTOM!

 

[Tamoo]

i think link shud b above too, awesome boomerang combos ftw lol

 

[Superstar]

Well, yeah.

Although, Link's recovery is worse than Samus. Dunno much on the specifics on the rest, but I feel Link > Samus and since I am teh smaretest in the wrld I now everythinf.

 

[greenblob]

There was no discussion on Jigglypuff--it was just a couple noobs who didn't know where to place her. I think most people agree that Jiggs is mid tier, or perhaps at the top of low tier.

 

[Shaeman111]

I am teh smaretest in the wrld I now everythinf.

Ultimate logic ftw.

EDIT- Jiggs should be mid tier. but yea jiggs rest= GAYY cuz combos are so hard to get out of in 64 lol

 

[Surri-Sama]

For Jiggly id say mid tier, to many abusable weaknesses for her to be Top tier...much like Yoshi

Mario sits nice at Top Mid

Only placement problem with Jiggly imo is does she go above or below Yoshi, lets try to have a legit discussion about this xP (yea right)

Lets evaluate these chars:

They both have good combos, leading in high damage. (=/=)

They both have effective finishers that they can combo into. (=/=)

Yoshi has more Recovery weaknesses (J+.5/Y-.5)

Jiggly has a shield break weakness, where as Yoshi has a shield bonus (Jiggly dies when you break her shield vs. Yoshi being able to Parry) (J-.5 Y+.5)

Yoshi has a projectile, Jiggly does not. (J-1, Y+1)

Both have alternate movement strategies, but Yoshis is more usful and practical (Jigglys Teleport vs. Yoshis Double Jump cancel) (J-2, Y+2)

Both have Drills (Yoshis does more but is also easier to DI out of) (J-2, Y+2)

Yoshi is heavy so he falls into combos more often then the super light Jiggly. (J-1, Y+1)

Jiggly gets KO’d far too easy (giving her more obvious counter picks) (J-2, Y+2)

Yoshi has a better defensive game then Jiggly with U-Tilts and DJC (J-3, Y+3)

This is all the relevant information I can think of, if you can (without Bias) find more points about these two, please post them and we will evaluate and discuss.

Until then, Yoshi should be higher then Jiggly

 

[CaptainFalconMaster]

Jigglys Teleport

WTF ?? teleport ? ? since when ?

or maybe I missed something..

 

[Surri-Sama]

WTF ?? teleport ? ? since when ?

or maybe I missed something..

well...not so much teleporting as it is sliding at high speeds xP

seems like teleporting

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Teleport_(SSB)

 

[AvengerAngel]

Jiggly has a alternate movement strategy (Jigglys Teleport vs. Yoshis nothing) (J-1, Y+1)

I think Yoshi's DJC is actually better than Jiggly's teleport :x
And imo Yoshi has more finishers than Jiggly. Jiggly has usmash, dsmash, fsmash, bthrow, rest (occasionally) and in some cases Uairs/Nairs. Yoshi has usmash, dsmash, fsmash, both the throws, Nairs/Uairs and an awesome spike :x

Even if I think mid tiers are almost all at the same level, I'd say Yoshi should be higher than Jiggly :O

 

[MattNF]

For Jiggly id say mid tier, to many abusable weaknesses for her to be Top tier...much like Yoshi

Mario sits nice at Top Mid

Only placement problem with Jiggly imo is does she go above or below Yoshi, lets try to have a legit discussion about this xP (yea right)

This is all the relevant information I can think of, if you can (without Bias) find more points about these two, please post them and we will evaluate and discuss.

Until then, Yoshi should be higher then Jiggly

...No.

"They both have Recovery weaknesses (=/=)"

Jiggly's recovery isn't nearly as bad as Yoshi's. IIRC, even Pika's ftilt can break through Yoshi's DJC at stupidly low percents.

"Yoshi has a projectile, Jiggly does not. (J-2, Y+2) "

Not really a big point here. Yoshi's projectile is near useless, as just about any aerial attack can cancel it. And for edgeguarding with Yoshi, many times you're better off not using it as it has a lot of lag after and it leaves you vulnerable in case the opponent doesn't get hit by the egg.

"Both have alternate movement strategies (Jigglys Teleport vs. Yoshis Double Jump cancel) (J-2, Y+2)"

Yoshi's alternate movement can be a disadvantage at times, while I can't think of a time where Jiggly's would be bad. With Yoshi, if you do a SH DJC near high percents, even if you're not near the edge, you can be at serious risk of dying.

Either way, the "alternate movement" for each character doesn't really have much of an effect on the overall matchup.

Fin.

EDIT: Oh, by the way, who do you think does better in a matchup of Yoshi v. Falcon?

 

[Surri-Sama]

Jiggly's recovery isn't nearly as bad as Yoshi's. IIRC, even Pika's ftilt can break through Yoshi's DJC at stupidly low percents.

Well in that case yes, but i said weaknesses not they they had the same recovery so to say.

Yoshi can be gimped due to his lack of a third jump.

Jiggly can be gimped because she is easy to force under a stage, with no hope of recovering.

But you are right, there will be more situations where Yoshi can be Gimped out, but Jiggly would recover. but not by a huge margin ill edit that

Not really a big point here. Yoshi's projectile is near useless, as just about any aerial attack can cancel it. And for edgeguarding with Yoshi, many times you're better off not using it as it has a lot of lag after and it leaves you vulnerable in case the opponent doesn't get hit by the egg.

True, lets say half a point for this then.

Yoshi's alternate movement can be a disadvantage at times, while I can't think of a time where Jiggly's would be bad. With Yoshi, if you do a SH DJC near high percents, even if you're not near the edge, you can be at serious risk of dying.

Either way, the "alternate movement" for each character doesn't really have much of an effect on the overall matchup.

First off, this is NOT about Jiggly vs Yoshi in a spacific match-up, this is an over view of strengths and weaknesses for both chars, that’s why I wanted people to add points.

Secondly while what you said is correct, DJC can leave you with no jump so if you get knocked off the edge you’re doomed, but the DJC is far more practical to use then jigglies teleport.

Put Simply, Yoshis DJC is far more use full then Jigglies Teleport

EDIT: Oh, by the way, who do you think does better in a matchup of Yoshi v. Falcon?

Personally i find it pretty even, Falcon can 0-death Yoshi easy, and vise versa...Yoshi can Gimp falcon, Falcon can gimp Yoshi...

Falcion is faster but Yoshi has a better deffensive game.

I think Yoshi's DJC is actually better than Jiggly's teleport :x
And imo Yoshi has more finishers than Jiggly. Jiggly has usmash, dsmash, fsmash, bthrow, rest (occasionally) and in some cases Uairs/Nairs. Yoshi has usmash, dsmash, fsmash, both the throws, Nairs/Uairs and an awesome spike :x

Even if I think mid tiers are almost all at the same level, I'd say Yoshi should be higher than Jiggly :O

The amount really is not that important though, and even if they where, Yoshis throws will allmost never be used as finshers, and his Nair is the same as Jigglies for a finisher

Jiggly - usmash, dsmash, fsmash, bthrow, rest and Uairs
Yoshi - usmash, dsmash, fsmash, Uairs and Fair

 

[MattNF]

First off, this is NOT about Jiggly vs Yoshi in a spacific match-up, this is an over view of strengths and weaknesses for both chars, that’s why I wanted people to add points.

Secondly while what you said is correct, DJC can leave you with no jump so if you get knocked off the edge you’re doomed, but the DJC is far more practical to use then jigglies teleport.

Put Simply, Yoshis DJC is far more use full then Jigglies Teleport

I didn't mean to imply it was between just Jiggly and Yoshi, I mean in matchups overall (against all characters).

Yeah, I agree that DJC is more useful, but keep in mind that it puts you at much higher risk of dying. The teleport doesn't really have any disadvantages at all, and can even be used to escape from a situation if you need to. I'd say Yoshi gains a half or (.75, lol) of a point.

Personally i find it pretty even, Falcon can 0-death Yoshi easy, and vise versa...Yoshi can Gimp falcon, Falcon can gimp Yoshi...

Falcion is faster but Yoshi has a better deffensive game.

I say Falcon has the slight advantage over Yoshi. Falcon can combo much easier than Yoshi and his combos are harder to DI from.

I brought this up because a while back me and Sheermadness were debating this. >.> He says that Yoshi does better in that matchup, and I disagreed.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Yeah, I agree that DJC is more useful, but keep in mind that it puts you at much higher risk of dying. The teleport doesn't really have any disadvantages at all, and can even be used to escape from a situation if you need to. I'd say Yoshi gains a half or (.75, lol) of a point.

lol not only does teleport have no draw backs, its not very usefull at all xP

seriously using Teleport progressively is very rare

I say Falcon has the slight advantage over Yoshi. Falcon can combo much easier than Yoshi and his combos are harder to DI from.

I brought this up because a while back me and Sheermadness were debating this. >.> He says that Yoshi does better in that matchup, and I disagreed.

Sheer has a Yoshi bias though, ...hence why i said in one of my posts...NO BAIS

sheer thinks Yoshi's only counter is Pikachu, and even that he says could be debated....thats foolish.

Jiggly is a yoshi counter. xP

Falcon may have a hard to time approaching Yoshi, thats the major thing i see in that match up

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

The teleport is only weaker since its so much more difficult to do

the main problem with DJC's are that if you miss the DJC or if someone hits you with a more prioritizing attack, they can combo you incredibly easily with virtually no chance of surviving unless they miss a hit since yoshi won't have a recovery without his double jump

Jigglypuff has better recovery from above, more things to do
Yoshi has a better recovery from below, but this is just because Jigglypuff sucks from below.

For Yoshi vs. Falcon
They each have equally devastating combos
Both of them have horrid recoveries, but Yoshi is better slightly
Falcon has larger range

the main reason why I see falcon above is due to his throw combos, he is just quicker and its easier for him to get the first hit

 

[Surri-Sama]

The teleport is only weaker since its so much more difficult to do

please read what me and MattNF JUST talked about :|

 

[SheerMadness]

I never said Yoshi had the advantage vs Falcon. I just always said that Falcon didn't have the advantage. I'd say its even.

Also I dunno why you guys think Yoshi's recovery is really bad. It's better than Fox, Link, Ness, and Falcon. And it doesn't seem any worse than Samus, DK, and Luigi's.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I never said Yoshi had the advantage vs Falcon. I just always said that Falcon didn't have the advantage. I'd say its even.

Also I dunno why you guys think Yoshi's recovery is really bad. It's better than Fox, Link, Ness, and Falcon. And it doesn't seem any worse than Samus, DK, and Luigi's.

I am just saying its worse than jigglypuff's and its way to easily gimpable

at least luigi has a very long recovery, Samus has high priority, and DK has invincibility frames

 

[NixxxoN]

I think Luigi and Samus recovery are better than yoshi's. I'd say even with DK

 

[Superstar]

Both have Drills (Yoshis does more but is also easier to DI out of) (J-2, Y+2)

Yoshi is heavy so he falls into combos more often then the super light Jiggly. (J-1, Y+1)

On first point, easier to DI out some seems to be a con. I'd suggest +1 and -1 instead of 2.

On the second, how is Yoshi getting the point. Yoshi already got the point for not dying as easily.

 

[Surri-Sama]

On first point, easier to DI out some seems to be a con. I'd suggest +1 and -1 instead of 2.

On the second, how is Yoshi getting the point. Yoshi already got the point for not dying as easily.

The numbers in the brackets are not the gain in points but the score as it goes a long...guess i should have said that >_<

I never said Yoshi had the advantage vs Falcon. I just always said that Falcon didn't have the advantage. I'd say its even.

Also I dunno why you guys think Yoshi's recovery is really bad. It's better than Fox, Link, Ness, and Falcon. And it doesn't seem any worse than Samus, DK, and Luigi's.

This is the bias i was talking about.

Yoshis recovery is on par with that of the worst Link CF and Fox, not better, the same...supper easy to gimp with low distance.

As for Samus Luigi and DK, they all have POSITIVE things towards there recovery (DKs low VERTICAL recovery is easily made up with his invincibility frames) And while Yoshi has a no knock back bonus (which can be pushed back by some of the dumbest attacks in the game, Ftilts ...ect...) if he does get kocked back AFTER his frames he is doomed, DK can use his third jump again.

SheerMadness your good Yoshi does not actually make Yoshi statistically better xP

Your personal in game anecdotes dont help towards the characters overall performance.

 

[SheerMadness]

w/e man I'm really not motivated enough to argue with you