Tier list alternative - Rate the characters! (experienced players only)

[Low Rider1717]

Top tier-
Pikachu
Kirby
Fox

High tier-
Ness
Captain Falcon
Mario
Jigglypuff
Yoshi

Low Tier-
Luigi
Link (dont kill me for not making him last or second to last)
DK
Samus

 

[Surri-Sama]

Top tier-
Pikachu
Kirby
Fox

High tier-
Ness
Captain Falcon
Mario
Jigglypuff
Yoshi

Low Tier-
Luigi
Link (dont kill me for not making him last or second to last)
DK
Samus

Im not going to kill you but i would like an explanation as to why you put Falcon and DK that low ¿?

 

[Zilph]

EDIT: How is that low for Falcon? Right below Ness (or Fox, I suppose) is his rightful place, and he's earned it. DK I place at the top of low tier, because, like Low Rider apparently, I only believe in 3 tiers. DK's only that far down for me because everything he can do is situational and/or relies on surprise.

You don't even need to DI out of that combo, Daedatheus. Pikachu's one of my mains, and utilt-spam will never work against a reasonably good player of any character. Fox in particular, since he's in discussion, can tech out at low damage (though unlike certain other characters, he doesn't have sufficient range to escape at middle damage). Also, sweetspotting quick attack is pretty hard, but it takes a **** good edgeguard to even make pika need to sweetspot it. Between his ability to break through guards and quick attack's versatility (there's at least four options in most recovery situations, only one of which involves the edge), that's only an issue at the kind of damage where the next hit's gonna KO you anyway.

Sirhc, you make good points, but you have to admit that Ness' recovery is pretty easy to **** with. Hell, if you feel like being a douchebag, you can even just take a hit from the up+b and then recover yourself. Though it's probably harder for characters with less awesome recoveries than pika and kirby...and ness, for that matter.

Anyway, my rankings:

Top:
Pikachu
Kirby
Fox
Ness

High:
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Yoshi
Mario

Low:
Donkey Kong
Link
Luigi
Samus

As for specific matchups (only the ones near the top)...

Pika > Kirby
Pika > Ness
Pika > Fox
Kirby = Ness
Kirby > Fox
Ness > Fox
Falcon > Fox
Jigglypuff > Kirby

Of course, that's all based on my experience, and will probably change as I start understanding the game better. And Fox players, he'd be below ness if you guys weren't so good. I have no clue how you do half the **** you do, but keep doing it. Fox is the one character I've never been able to do crap with. I do better with ****ing link.

 

[Shaeman111]

****ing link can **** anyone

 

[Surri-Sama]

EDIT: How is that low for Falcon? Right below Ness (or Fox, I suppose) is his rightful place, and he's earned it. DK I place at the top of low tier, because, like Low Rider apparently, I only believe in 3 tiers. DK's only that far down for me because everything he can do is situational and/or relies on surprise.

It is low for falcon because I believe falcon is either on par, or better then Fox, diffenitly better then Ness, and close to Kirby. Please tell me how he earned being below Ness and Fox.

You don't even need to DI out of that combo

lulz how do you get out of combos exactly? Unplug the controller!

Pikachu's one of my mains and utilt-spam will never work against a reasonably good player of any character.

Maybe not 6 times but 3-4 you can get.

Fox in particular, since he's in discussion, can tech out at low damage (though unlike certain other characters, he doesn't have sufficient range to escape at middle damage).

What tech? Where does this TECH you speak of come from O_o

Also, sweet spotting quick attack is pretty hard, but it takes a **** good edge guard to even make pika need to sweet spot it.

Agreed, but needing too and wanting too are different…now that may seem like showing off...but remember you have 0 delay when you hit an edge, as apposed to the high delay pika gets when he hits the ground from UpB

Sirhc, you make good points, but you have to admit that Ness' recovery is pretty easy to **** with.=

Every time this Ness vs. the world, argument comes up I DO AGREE his recovery sucks but so does Falcons and Fox’s. So what’s the problem?

You guys say Ness' recovery is easier to gimp then the rest...but at high levels of play that "ease" wont even matter because recovering with Ness, Link, Falcon, Fox, DK, and even Yoshi, becomes a very hard thing to do if your foe is a top level player too.

NOTE: do you play online?

 

[Daedatheus]

Fox in particular, since he's in discussion, can tech out at low damage (though unlike certain other characters, he doesn't have sufficient range to escape at middle damage).

Um... why would I be letting Fox touch the ground in a combo... Remember that he'd be hit with a Dair + Usmash first.

 

[NixxxoN]

Every time this Ness vs. the world, argument comes up I DO AGREE his recovery sucks but so does Falcons and Fox’s. So what’s the problem?

You guys say Ness' recovery is easier to gimp then the rest...but at high levels of play that "ease" wont even matter because recovering with Ness, Link, Falcon, Fox, DK, and even Yoshi, becomes a very hard thing to do if your foe is a top level player too.

Ness has:
arguably the 2nd worst recovery after Link.
long hitstun so hes easy to combo
dies at low %

When facing a good player, if you use ness and you get hit, you're dead. Well, unless you have DI hax and use it well

 

[Surri-Sama]

arguably the 2nd worst recovery after Link.

There you go NOT reading again.

long hitstun so hes easy to combo

Ness is actually a light weight same as Pikachu.

dies at low %

dieing at low %s doesn't matter if you can kill effectively and play defensively.

When facing a good player, if you use ness and you get hit, you're dead. Well, unless you have DI hax and use it well

This can be said for every char that is not Pikachu :|

 

[NixxxoN]

-Ness is actually a light weight same as Pikachu.

-dieing at low %s doesn't matter if you can kill effectively and play defensively.

-This can be said for every char that is not Pikachu :|

1) Ness is light weight but has more hitstun than Pikachu.
2) Dieing at low % makes easier to make 0-death combos.
3) Not for mario, luigi or samus for example, because they all have very short hitstun time.

 

[Surri-Sama]

1) Ness is light weight but has more hitstun than Pikachu.
2) Dieing at low % makes easier to make 0-death combos.
3) Not for mario, luigi or samus for example, because they all have very short hitstun time.

1)Im gonna need some proof as to Ness having more hit stun then Pika.

2) The two have no relation, DK, Link and Falcon die at high percents but are easy to 0-death.

3) They can all be killed relatively easy WITH Ness

 

[Superstar]

Ness's recovery sucks, but at the very least he is a **** projectile with good distance, which means you can start PKT from far away, its the landing where you get beat. But, the landing is where you get beat too with other chars. So in that regard I agree with Surri.

Also, I dont notice any more hitstun with anybody. =/

High:
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Yoshi
Mario

WTF

 

[Surri-Sama]

Also, I dot notice any more hitstun with anybody. =|

I agree with what you said about hit stun...I always though the attacks had the hit stun...

House or Ant-D, care to correct or support me here? WITH DATA!!!!!!

 

[Frown]

Pikachu - 9.5
Ness - 9.25
Kirby - 9.25
Fox - 8.5
C. Falcon - 8.25
Mario - 8
Yoshi - 8
Jigglypuff - 8
Luigi - 7.75
Link - 7.75
DK - 7.5
Samus - 6.0

 

[Low Rider1717]

Im not going to kill you but i would like an explanation as to why you put Falcon and DK that low ¿?

I truely believe that he is right where he needs to be
Ness can pull out Combos too well (altho he has gimpable recovery)
and Falcon has a slow ground game compared to other charecters
plus Nesss backthrow=win
and yeah i dont think he should be in top tier

as for DK he is slow, has slower moves and easily gimped
sure hes strong but at the cost of slower moves
his air game is however good but too many characters surpass him in the air

 

[†¹Ãgøn¥¹†]

Falcon's combo are far easier then ness's combo. Not everybody knows how to utilt-utilt-utilt-double jump cancel uair-djc Nair-and watever after maybe Bair or Dair...

Everybody knows the USmash or Fthrow-Uair-Uair-Uair-Uair-Up b with falcon seriously.

 

[Surri-Sama]

I truely believe that he is right where he needs to be
Ness can pull out Combos too well (altho he has gimpable recovery)
and Falcon has a slow ground game compared to him
and yeah i dont think he should be in top tier

as for DK he is slow, has slower moves and easily gimped
sure hes strong but at the cost of slower moves
his air game is however good but too many characters surpass him in the air

You've played to much Brawl, play some smash64 with pros and tell me Falcon and DK are slow >_>

 

[†¹Ãgøn¥¹†]

Lol, I hadnt seen where he says ''falcon has slow ground'' xDDDD This has to be the most funniest thing I've seen this week. Siggy time =)

Lol I got my new sig xD

 

[Zilph]

Sirhc, I don't play online as much as I'd like by a long shot, my wireless is pretty high latency and it frustrates me (and other people).

Anyway, I like Falcon as much as anyone - his combos are easy and fun - but when he's not comboing, he's in trouble. And Ness, Pika, and Kirby all have higher-priority aerials with less start-up lag than Falcon, so even starting can be a problem.

 

[Superstar]

Actually, I notice no significant startup differences with any character [well, some I do...Link's Fair...]. Some yeah, but I haven't played enough. That said, Falcon has no bad startup time. I can see where you're coming from with Kirby though, if you mention utilt.

Falcon having a slow ground game made me lol.

 

[Low Rider1717]

Actually, I notice no significant startup differences with any character [well, some I do...Link's Fair...]. Some yeah, but I haven't played enough. That said, Falcon has no bad startup time. I can see where you're coming from with Kirby though, if you mention utilt.

Falcon having a slow ground game made me lol.

rofl i meant slower then Ness
but yeah maybe you are right about me playing brawl too much XD
and yeah the 'pros' i play against are my friends
they arn't so great tho haha
and there are many other combos with ness
like his DJC Down airs
i get a good 4 of those on average weight charecres like falcon
and alot more on DK

 

[Surri-Sama]

rofl i meant slower then Ness
but yeah maybe you are right about me playing brawl too much XD
and yeah the 'pros' i play against are my friends
they arn't so great tho haha
and there are many other combos with ness
like his DJC Down airs
i get a good 4 of those on average weight charecres like falcon
and alot more on DK

we should play, ive never had anyone break my shield with perfect DJC'd Dairs, you should be the first.

anyway we could play online at all?

Edit: btw DJC Dairs you dont mean tech chasing do you....

 

[Low Rider1717]

how can we play??
is there an online smash bros?
and is that when u do it in 1 spot?
im a lil lost right now haha

 

[Zilph]

You use Kaillera and Project64k. Speaking of which, Sirhc, I'd like to go a round or two with you if you have the time.

 

[Surri-Sama]

The time...hmm...depends really, ill have say 2 hours today that i will be playing, if you can contact me in that time we can play

 

[NixxxoN]

Surri... You know hitsun is the time between you get hit and you can move the character... Although some hits do more and less hitstun too. It is obvious than Ness has long hitstun (aswell as Falcon, Fox, DK...), Pikachu has less hitstun, and Mario, Luigi and Samus have the lowest hitstun.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Surri... You know hitsun is the time between you get hit and you can move the opponent... Although some hits do more and less hitstun too. It is obvious than Ness has long hitstun (aswell as Falcon, Fox, DK...), Pikachu has less hitstun, and Mario, Luigi and Samus have the lowest hitstun.

Hitstun is the delay after youve been hit yes I know that....and what your saying seems obvious but i would like you to show me a combo that works on Ness but not on pikachu

Instead of saying "its obvious" prove your point

 

[NixxxoN]

Hitstun is the delay after youve been hit yes I know that....and what your saying seems obvious but i would like you to show me a combo that works on Ness but not on pikachu

Instead of saying "its obvious" prove your point

I don't know anything about TAS, but Im pretty sure of it. You can do the same combos with both of them but with Pika you have to be a little faster. Pika's jump and up+b are faster than Ness's moves

 

[†¹Ãgøn¥¹†]

What he means is that:

When you do utilt 3x and try uair with ness on samus, samus can react with a Dair because she has less hitstun. And some other characters like falcon, fox and more can't react agaisnt it because they have longer hitstun.

I think the lowest hitstun character are:

Jigglypuff-Mario-Luigi-Samus-Pikachu-Kirby

All the other character have longer hitstun thus why they are easier to combo.

 

[Superstar]

Hitstun is on a per move basic. Which of Ness's moves does most hitstun, which of Pikachu's move does less?

Wait...

Ness has:
arguably the 2nd worst recovery after Link.
long hitstun so hes easy to combo
dies at low %

Hitstun is not on the defender's side, its on the attackers side. Otherwise, most combos wouldn't be universal on characters. What does matter are the weight, size, and falling speed of chars. The more there is, the easier to combo.

And Agony, the chars you mentioned as "low hitstun" are floaties, so they are on a higher altitiude when hit and thus harder to combo. Those you mentioned as high hitstun are fastfallers [well, 64 wise].

For example, to show, if I do drill->utilt as Mario at 0%, Fox will hit the ground before I can react, but Jiggs won't [or maybe will hit the ground later than Fox]. For Fox, I have to do drill->usmash to get any effect.

 

[NixxxoN]

Hitstun is not on the defender's side, its on the attackers side. Otherwise, most combos wouldn't be universal on characters. What does matter are the weight, size, and falling speed of chars. The more there is, the easier to combo.

And Agony, the chars you mentioned as "low hitstun" are floaties, so they are on a higher altitiude when hit and thus harder to combo. Those you mentioned as high hitstun are fastfallers [well, 64 wise].

LOL you actually make me doubt... but I think your wrong. I agree with Agony. Hitstun depends on the character itself too, not only on the types of attacks you do/you receive.

May any TAS guy help us??

I think it goes like this:

High hitstun:
DK
Falcon
Link

Mid hitstun:
Ness
Fox
Yoshi

Low hitstun:
Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Kirby
Mario

Very low hitstun:
Luigi
Samus

Not exactly the more floaty or light the less hitstun... Jiggs is lighter than samus and he has not less hitsun, and Ness is very light and has not low hitstun.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Nixxxon: What you said SurperStar makes sense....but I'm gona keep going on anyways :D

Every Combo ive seen work on Pika, Works on Ness and Kirby too

 

[†¹Ãgøn¥¹†]

I agree with you Superstar, but they still have less hitstun, even if they are floatie or watever because if you hit pikachu which is not a floatie character, the only way he'll be able to get out of a combo is with Up B. But if you try to up b with fox it won't even occur because the hitstun on fox is longer.

 

[NixxxoN]

Nixxxon: What you said SurperStar makes sense....but I'm gona keep going on anyways :D

Every Combo ive seen work on Pika, Works on Ness and Kirby too

I dont agree, Ness has harder hitstun imo... Lets see if some TAS guy know it.

 

[Superstar]

Wait, if it's a TAS thing, then it can't be too significant. How floaty the character is would make more significance, since that's what I've seen. Or maybe the floatiness of a character goes into the formula for hitstun time maybe, which would make sense that you more or less ordered them from least floaty to most floaty [roughly]. Or it's a trend that correlates with no causation.

the only way he'll be able to get out of a combo is with Up B.

But then it's not a combo, just means that it's his fastest escape. XD But yeah, I get you.

About your example though, with Pikachu and Fox. Since Pikachu is floatier, Fox would be closer to you at same percents, meaning you can hit him sooner than Pikachu before the hitstun wears. But still, this does seem interesting.

 

[†¹Ãgøn¥¹†]

Well, it is a combo, it's just that it's not a combo agaisn't that character because he has less hitstun =P That's how I see it. But about the characters going higher when you hit 'em I agree as well. It's pretty hard to debate since there's multiple explications to this.

I guess that's what makes some combos different agaisn't every character...

 

[x After Dawn x]

Jigglypuff is a combobreaker.

 

[Superstar]

She should be lynched for that.

Vote Jigglypuff

12 alive, 7 to lynch.

Also, I am agreed with Agony.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I vote that Jiggs should be hung by a rope. Wait, she has no neck...

Erm, I vote that she gets anally penetrated by Captain Falcon.

 

[Zantetsu]

Ampharos is top tier, amirite?

 

[MattNF]

Every character has the same hitstun for each individual attack. >_> Some characters are floatier than others, that's why they can get out of combos earlier.

Yoshi's DJC is kind of an exception