I dont agree. Prove it.
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Tier list alternative - Rate the characters! (experienced players only)
- Thread starter NixxxoN
- Start date
No. You're the one who has to prove it first; you made the original claim.
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
i agree with this...untill we get to the Yoshi part xP
I still havnt seen that ever....asked Ant-D and House about it they never replied.. owell :o
What about you Malva, got anything to say about Yoshi and his "hitstun" ¿?
For example, Ness is more floaty than Fox but his hitsun is pretty much the same, and its equally hard to get out of combos
"Pretty much" isn't proof. Get some frame data showing that the hitstun is different, then I'll believe you.
Im waiting if JPleal or ant-d read this D:
AvengerAngel
Smash Journeyman
ffs, the hit stun changes from character to character, that's just A FACT. I can remember antd's frame data in which he said something like Luigi and Samus, for example, have less hit stun than Falcon or Fox. Wtf are you guys talking about floaties for SSB 64?! There are "pseudo-floaties" and "pseudo-fastfallers" (I mean, it's clear that Falcon or DK fall faster than Kirby or Jigglypuff), but why do you think Falcon's standard combos work on Falcon/Link but don't work on DK/Yoshi, seeing as their falling speed is pretty much the same? (Hint: their hit stun is different.)
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
AvengerAngel
Smash Journeyman
Not at the same way and at the same %s. Yoshi can get away from Uair chains even without DI, while Falcon can't :x
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
everyone keeps saying that...but i never see any of it
Luigi and Samus, two extremely floaty characters, like I said.
Hint: "Pretty much" does not mean "equal". Not to mention Yoshi can DJC out of combos since his double jump can protect him from getting knocked away sometimes.
You didn't win anything.
Didnt AA say the TAS data proved it?
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
he made reference to Ant-D's work but didnt link us to anything so....
its easy to say TAS proved something...but talks cheap
people get into and out of combos due to weight, falling speed, and floatiness.
The only exception is pikachu which can get out of moves by Up B'ing out of them (due to ridiculous amounts of invincibility frames) and Yoshi who can get out of moves by DJCC'ing (Double Jump Cancel Counter).
Characters that are too floaty but still a bit heavy(as in Samus and Luigi) can be comboed way to easily in the air by sideways moves such as by Falcon's N-air.
Characters that are too heavy (as in DK and Link) are easy to combo by rising moves....such as falcon's, yoshi's, and ness's up air
Characters that are fast fallers (such as fox or falcon) can be comboed by rising moves as well
The only characters that are actually difficult to 0 to death is Jigglypuff, Pikachu (for other reasons stated above), Kirby, and Yoshi (for his reasons) due to being way too light
The only exception is pikachu which can get out of moves by Up B'ing out of them (due to ridiculous amounts of invincibility frames) and Yoshi who can get out of moves by DJCC'ing (Double Jump Cancel Counter).
Characters that are too floaty but still a bit heavy(as in Samus and Luigi) can be comboed way to easily in the air by sideways moves such as by Falcon's N-air.
Characters that are too heavy (as in DK and Link) are easy to combo by rising moves....such as falcon's, yoshi's, and ness's up air
Characters that are fast fallers (such as fox or falcon) can be comboed by rising moves as well
The only characters that are actually difficult to 0 to death is Jigglypuff, Pikachu (for other reasons stated above), Kirby, and Yoshi (for his reasons) due to being way too light
Superstar
Smash Champion
I have to agree. I don't deny the possiblity of there being "hitstun" differences, but talk is cheap.
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
the only time any char can get out of an actual combo, is when the combo isnt complete
Pikas UpB works because its fast...Yoshi's jump works because WHEN he gets frames he can become invincable
BOTH require the combo actually going wrong though
Pikas UpB works because its fast...Yoshi's jump works because WHEN he gets frames he can become invincable
BOTH require the combo actually going wrong though
Yep, as soon as someone provides a link to some frame data by antd or Jpeal I'll believe him.
craiigg
Smash Lord
would you guys like an official tier list discussion?
and i agree with AA
and i agree with AA
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
common man, an official tier list discussion?
You mod this section and you're such a silly thing XD
nothing done here will ever be progressive or official...people here just dont get it :|
craiigg
Smash Lord
well sure lol but if there was a tier list discussion stickied and kept on track it'd stop these random ones going off track
you should make a group for some of the better smashers to really make a good tier list
if we allow everyone, ness and kirby are going to be broken and Jigglypuff/Mario are going to be low tier
Superstar
Smash Champion
^^^ True that.
Ness is secks but not that secks. Fox Falcon >>>
Ness is secks but not that secks. Fox Falcon >>>
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
that bad? >_>
†¹Ãgøn¥¹†
Smash Ace
Imo fox is the most impressive character in combo mode and after I'd say it's pikachu then falcon.
Back on topic about hitstun, even if there was low histun and all I doubt it would change a thing because by now most of us already know how long it takes for every character to be able to do a counter or jumo out.
But I guess it would be only for general info...
Back on topic about hitstun, even if there was low histun and all I doubt it would change a thing because by now most of us already know how long it takes for every character to be able to do a counter or jumo out.
But I guess it would be only for general info...
Superstar
Smash Champion
I want whatever KoRo was smoking.
I forgot the list he posted.
I forgot the list he posted.
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
With what he have talked about, and personally thinking about it more, i've changed my data slightly
Pikachu - 10
Falcon - 9.25
Kirby - 9
Fox - 9
Ness - 8.5
Mario - 8
Yoshi - 8
Jigglypuff - 7,75
DK - 7.5
Luigi - 6
Link - 5.75
Samus - 4.75
Pikachu - 10
Falcon - 9.25
Kirby - 9
Fox - 9
Ness - 8.5
Mario - 8
Yoshi - 8
Jigglypuff - 7,75
DK - 7.5
Luigi - 6
Link - 5.75
Samus - 4.75
Falcon at 2nd place?
No... just no. His bad recovery alone simply doesn't make him good enough to be that high.
Superstar
Smash Champion
Old:
Mario CAN combo from 0%, but from what I've seen it's so telegraphed its not worth going for unless the opponent hugs up.
EDIT: Fox's recovery is no pretty peach neither. And you support Fox for second, so...
New:
Compared to the original, I agree more with the new one. Although, I think Mario has more points than Yoshi. Better projectile, better recovery [by a lot] and by extension better at ****** recoveries [Yoshi has fair but he can't go too far], better at grabbing [better grabs too I think], harder to combo methinks [dunno =/ DJC sounds like a good counterargument, but requires combo going bad]. No DJC though, Yoshi is better at comboing from 0% than Mario, but Mario has an easy time bringing up the % to suitable range [w/ better grabs and fireballs].
Mario CAN combo from 0%, but from what I've seen it's so telegraphed its not worth going for unless the opponent hugs up.
EDIT: Fox's recovery is no pretty peach neither. And you support Fox for second, so...
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
Good points...dont bother reading what Matt says xP
Pikachu - 10
Kirby - 9.25
Falcon - 9
Fox - 8.75
Ness - 8.5
Mario - 8.25
Yoshi - 8
Jigglypuff - 7.75
DK - 7.5
Luigi - 6
Link - 5.75
Samus - 4.75
Superstar
Smash Champion
And you switched Falcon w/ Kirby, tharfore I agree mucho more w/ List. :D
About how much Fox's recovery sucks, I like to grab ***** him, and throw him off. If I get him at a downwards angle, I like to dair at the tip where the stage ends to knock him down. Knockback is weak, so he'll up-B again. Then to be a ****, I dair again.
Booyah, Dair, Booyah, Dair, Booyah, Dair, Booyah, Dair, Booyah, Dair, Booyah, Dair....
I think I once went 10 times doing that. Usually makes it back because I mess up sometime though. If I cared enough to kill him though, after the first or second dair [where Fox will directly below the ledge] I could run off and bair, edgehog [be easier w/ controller than KB though], or run off, reverse fireball to stun him, edgehog, drop off and nair. Never tried the last one though, looks like it'd work.
EDIT: I'm serious, looking at all the uairs I'd have to be able to do w/ second jumping, I should REALLY buy a controller, or get the NRage plugin, set some mods, and find some way to be able to Smash [difficult w/ that plugin]. Eh, I was going to save for a GFX card, but after finding out its unupgradeable, might as well buy a controller instead.
About how much Fox's recovery sucks, I like to grab ***** him, and throw him off. If I get him at a downwards angle, I like to dair at the tip where the stage ends to knock him down. Knockback is weak, so he'll up-B again. Then to be a ****, I dair again.
Booyah, Dair, Booyah, Dair, Booyah, Dair, Booyah, Dair, Booyah, Dair, Booyah, Dair....
I think I once went 10 times doing that. Usually makes it back because I mess up sometime though. If I cared enough to kill him though, after the first or second dair [where Fox will directly below the ledge] I could run off and bair, edgehog [be easier w/ controller than KB though], or run off, reverse fireball to stun him, edgehog, drop off and nair. Never tried the last one though, looks like it'd work.
EDIT: I'm serious, looking at all the uairs I'd have to be able to do w/ second jumping, I should REALLY buy a controller, or get the NRage plugin, set some mods, and find some way to be able to Smash [difficult w/ that plugin]. Eh, I was going to save for a GFX card, but after finding out its unupgradeable, might as well buy a controller instead.
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
There are little tricks some people do with Fox's Third jump to throw people off though.
Personally instead of coming in on a diagonal, I would Firefox upwards (9/10 they will attack THINKING your going to go straight for the edge) then while they suffer attack delay you can fall towards the edge
When i played Ybombb he did something like this with Yoshi, and it worked :o
Superstar
Smash Champion
Well, I'm talking about when they're downwards, which is after one successful edgeguard but it didn't kill them. Depending on how I hit them, I might force them below the edge, where they have no choice but up.
And I edited. You say KB works > controller [cause of DI], but for Mario, doesn't quite look that way. I have to be able to uair at any time w/o double jumping.
And I edited. You say KB works > controller [cause of DI], but for Mario, doesn't quite look that way.
I have to be able to uair at any time w/o double jumping.
Superstar
Smash Champion
But Captrain Flacon's recovery is much more risky to intercept. I'd rather be hit by Foxine's booyah than Falcon's manly hug of death. Since the manly hug means death if you're caught [but you shouldn't be].
Not to mention, any advantage Fox's Up-B is stopped by the startup. Gives me time to prepare or get to the ledge before he recovers.
They both suck.
Not to mention, any advantage Fox's Up-B is stopped by the startup. Gives me time to prepare or get to the ledge before he recovers.
They both suck.
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
Yeah they both suck, but Fox's is still better.
infernovia
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2008
- Messages
- 675
How is falcon's that more difficult to gimp? Just go out there and throw a high priority aerial. Or dair if you got him cornered.