Tier list alternative - Rate the characters! (experienced players only)

[greenblob]

Actually, the top Yoshi players are what count with tier lists. You're not going to make a tier list from matches played by a bunch of noobs, are you? Even if they're very good, if they're not the best, they don't count. So yes, SheerMadness' Yoshi is something that matters a lot when it comes to making a tier list. And most of Isai's characters matter a lot as well.

 

[Superstar]

But you're forgetting the main fact of life, er, Smash.

Everyone is biased towards their own characters, even moreso when they only have one.

 

[greenblob]

No, my argument is that you can't say "___ is just one person so he can't influence the tier list," when that person is clearly among the best of a certain character (or in the case of Isai, several characters). I wouldn't be surprised if Isai's playing influences 1/2 the tier list positions.

 

[Surri-Sama]

No, my argument is that you can't say "___ is just one person so he can't influence the tier list," when that person is clearly among the best of a certain character (or in the case of Isai, several characters). I wouldn't be surprised if Isai's playing influences 1/2 the tier list positions.

Actually I can say just that, and I did.

The whole point of the tier list is too see where chars stand vs the rest of the cast, using one Yoshi's performance to determine how good he is, is bias.

Simply for the fact that, things that seem to be true (Yoshi having a good recovery because Sheer is good and knows how to exploit PEOPLE well) really are not (even though Sheer is able to recover with Yoshi, this is only one persons in game experience, so whos to say its not Sheer that has a good recovery, NOT yoshi)

As foolish as that may sound its true, once you become more experienced in this game the better you get at everything, including general aspects of it, Teching, Cancelling, RECOVERING..or anything that really requires practise.

And the reason Isai may have had such an influence on the tier list is because he made things more obvious...

If Sheer thinks he can (or anyone for that matter) make Yoshi's attributes obviously better then I and the rest of the people here think they are, be my guest.

We can analyze and discuss it.

 

[greenblob]

If someone can recover well with Yoshi, I don't see how that would not affect Yoshi's tier position. Just because everyone can't recover with Yoshi doesn't mean Yoshi has a crappy recovery.

 

[Superstar]

But it biases Yoshi's recovery compared to OTHER character.

A tier list is not as black and white as a character being "good" or "bad". Isai can play an awesome Link if he tried [or at the very least, more awesome than mine. XD], does that make Link good? NO.

If you are a solo main and you're the best in that main, you're word is worth less than someone who's like 5th place for their char, but rather fluent with half the cast. Is that's what's happening now? I dunno, but it can be, so I'm speaking it as a counter point. Because of solo character bias. You could mean well, but you'll still be biased. Hell, I'M biased, I know Surri is biased, I know you're biased, I know everyone is biased. We could try as hard as we can to be neutral, but chances are, subconciously, our perceptions are being clouded. Solo character mains are just the most biased.

That's pretty much why commitees are made for this sort of thing. To try to filter out the bias.

I'm sure Sheer can make some points [I don't really know his status well, never heard of him before]. I'm just speaking in general, mostly. It just means that his sole word means nothing, like the sole word of many. Hell, I know outside of Samus is bottom and Pikachu is top, I mean nothing.

Eh, many can explain it better than I do and not have the holes, I presume. Bleh.

 

[AlexBarry]

But it biases Yoshi's recovery compared to OTHER character.

A tier list is not as black and white as a character being "good" or "bad". Isai can play an awesome Link if he tried [or at the very least, more awesome than mine. XD], does that make Link good? NO.

If you are a solo main and you're the best in that main, you're word is worth less than someone who's like 5th place for their char, but rather fluent with half the cast. Is that's what's happening now? I dunno, but it can be, so I'm speaking it as a counter point. Because of solo character bias. You could mean well, but you'll still be biased. Hell, I'M biased, I know Surri is biased, I know you're biased, I know everyone is biased. We could try as hard as we can to be neutral, but chances are, subconciously, our perceptions are being clouded. Solo character mains are just the most biased.

That's pretty much why commitees are made for this sort of thing. To try to filter out the bias.

I'm sure Sheer can make some points [I don't really know his status well, never heard of him before]. I'm just speaking in general, mostly. It just means that his sole word means nothing, like the sole word of many. Hell, I know outside of Samus is bottom and Pikachu is top, I mean nothing.

Eh, many can explain it better than I do and not have the holes, I presume. Bleh.

blah blah blah sigmund freud you are NOT
and if you've never heard of sheer you really shouldn't be posting

 

[greenblob]

A tier list is not as black and white as a character being "good" or "bad". Isai can play an awesome Link if he tried [or at the very least, more awesome than mine. XD], does that make Link good? NO.

If you happened to be the best at a certain character and he consistently beat you, then yes, that would say something about that particular matchup.

 

[Superstar]

blah blah blah sigmund freud you are NOT
and if you've never heard of sheer you really shouldn't be posting

I could say the same about you.

If you happened to be the best at a certain character and he consistently beat you, then yes, that would say something about that particular matchup.

...no, it doesn't. Having a hard time explaining why though, without speaking for someone else I dunno. Eh, I'll take a shot, since this is entertaining.

He's the best in the world for a reason. If I go by what Dylan says, he won't lose a set, but maybe a match, to Boom. If Isai uses a char that loses normally to a character Boom uses, but wins, does that mean that the char Isai used beats the one Boom used? It can give an implication, but on it's own, it's not really worth anything. Isai is just better than Boom, THAT'S why he won.

I don't think Boom and Isai are that far in skill for this example, but eh, I dunno. I only played Boom, and not his main, and my most recent had lag. I've never played Isai. But it's just an example.

If the best in each char were equally skilled, then I'd more or less agree [despite the bias on some degree that everyone has]. But, from what I see, that's not how it is.

EDIT: My final opinion, Sheer can give input, since from what I hear he's really good. He just can't singlehandidly decide Yoshi's position. I just really don't agree with your reasoning.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I will repeat this again....I play enough vs other people and my Yoshi is equal to sheer's
I have played multiple matches vs every character as Yoshi
Yoshi fails vs any character with either
A: great projectile play.....as in Fox's lasers, mario's fireballs, and moderately link's projectiles (very moderately)
B: Better Priority/disjointed hitboxes, as in Kirby and Pikachu (more kirby), I still lose to bad kirbys sometimes just do to their overpowered up tilt and aerials)
C: Great Grab: as in falconm Pikachu, mario's, and somewhat kirby, DK does not apply here since yoshi gets quicker kills on him and has better approach
D: Too difficult to combo chars, as in Jigglypuff, kirby and pikachu

For specifically falcon, Yoshi can easily 0 to death falcon but falcon has better approaches, falcon's aerials are better and falcon's throw gives off monster combos, take your pick

I'm going to give a bit of my opinion vs every character, + numbers means yoshi counters, - numbers means countered by that character

Pikachu -50
Kirby -70
Fox -20
Falcon even
Mario -5
Ness +30
Jigglypuff -10
Yoshi even
Luigi +10
DK + 40
Link even
Samus +30

 

[Surri-Sama]

If you happened to be the best at a certain character and he consistently beat you, then yes, that would say something about that particular matchup.

one person who plays yoshi to his best is not statistical data because your comparing a good yoshi players recovery to say an average falcons...

An awesome Yoshi players recovery will seem great compared to an average falcons recovery, but if you compared it to an awesome falcon players recovery, it suddenly doesn't look as great

 

[greenblob]

Well, that's what I'm saying. You only compare the top, not the overall. Who cares about how some random person recovers with Falcon or Yoshi? The only thing that matters are the best Falcon recoveries and the best Yoshi recoveries.

 

[Superstar]

But, like I said [repeat of point], that only works if the top for each char is equally skilled. 64 has a very small crowd, and it's not Brawl, so I don't see that happening. The bests Falcon might play Yoshi better than the best Yoshi if he tried, he just doesn't play Yoshi.

Is that this case? I dunno, I just find this fun.

 

[SheerMadness]

Ugh Korbeniki stop comparing your Yoshi to mine. It's not for you to decide if your Yoshi is worse, equal, or better. Get a bunch of people who've played both of us to say that your Yoshi is equal to mine or don't say it. I can go around saying my characters are equal to anyone too, but I don't.


In my opinion Yoshi has one of the better recoveries in the game. I should have said that to begin with because it's all opinion anyway.

 

[Zantetsu]

Hi I'm an elitist Yoshi main and I know everything about Yoshi.

Orly now?

 

[Coen]

Sorry for sounding like such an idiot, but why is Pikachu perfect? Never really gotten into this game (barely ever played it) and I've always wondered why Pikachu and Kirby are the best chars. Not that I disagree, but I would just like to know why they're top tier.

Anyone? ;_;

 

[infernovia]

broken utilt, broken juggles, broken edgeguarding, broken recovery, fsmash, broken uair/tail/aerials, broken usmash + thunder.

Ok in depth.

Utilt is disjointed I believe or has insane priority. Mostly beats all aerials and clanks with everything else (slight exaggeration). Also, insane combo potential.

Edgeguarding is broken with sooooo many tools. Mostly because his recovery is soooo good that he can do anything he wants out of the stage and recover back. Also, fsmash destroys like every recovery in the game. Except another pika.

Broken aerials. He has really nice aerials. Hard to beat, especially the tail.

Usmash is broken too with the fastest start up. And also, it uses his tail (more or less invulnerable). Thunder chase will kill at low percentage.

Plus, combos extremely well.

Final Edit: I think bthrow will kill 100% of the time (without obstruction) at 100%. BROKEN.

 

[greenblob]

But, like I said [repeat of point], that only works if the top for each char is equally skilled. 64 has a very small crowd, and it's not Brawl, so I don't see that happening. The bests Falcon might play Yoshi better than the best Yoshi if he tried, he just doesn't play Yoshi.

Is that this case? I dunno, I just find this fun.

That would mean that player is the best Falcon and the best Yoshi.

 

[Superstar]

Hmm, true, however, since he's not focused on Yoshi, he doesn't play Yoshi to his maximum potential. So if he DID play Yoshi, he'd represent Yoshi better.

Just head up and say there aren't that many chars anyways, so the better people will generally use a good portion of the cast. That's all I can think of as a real counter argument.

EDIT: At least for a second was bad. I edited it out. XD

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Orly now?

I don't know everything about Yoshi.

I have not even seen Sheer on recently

And really, for anyone who wants to check, I would be happy to play vs a few people right after Sheer or something like that to show something

But that is not the point.

Yoshi has a good recovery, the only characters I see better than yoshi's recovery are Luigi's, Mario;'s, Pikachu's, Kirby's, and Jigglypuff's.

 

[Zantetsu]

I don't know everything about Yoshi.

I have not even seen Sheer on recently

And really, for anyone who wants to check, I would be happy to play vs a few people right after Sheer or something like that to show something

But that is not the point.

Yoshi has a good recovery, the only characters I see better than yoshi's recovery are Luigi's, Mario;'s, Pikachu's, Kirby's, and Jigglypuff's.

Ignore that post. I have nothing bad on you koro. I just had 3 hours of sleep and was forcibly woken up so I was quite angry D:

 

[Surri-Sama]

See superstar, once i presented my counter points they went back to simply saying Yoshi has a good recovery :|

 

[Superstar]

Well, to be fair, you weren't really debating with Koro, buuut.

Yoshi has a good recovery, the only characters I see better than yoshi's recovery are Luigi's, Mario;'s, Pikachu's, Kirby's, and Jigglypuff's.

wat

I picked up Yoshi as a secondary, so I'm using him more. So I might as well give my 2 cents on his recovery.

It's kinda good. You get good distance, and it's like a thrust when you use it [unlike Fox's startup time and steady movement]. However, it's got that horrible horrible downside that once you're hit, you're screwed. It is possible to get around the edgeguard by stalling a bit and striking them as you come back, but that still doesn't beat the fact that it's horribly sketchy, and IF you mess up, you're dead. Meaning that although on the surface it's better than say Fox's recovery, at the very least Fox can reuse his third jump if he fails.

Haven't used Yoshi much yet though, and not against really good players, so I've never been able to test it fully. But so far, I like Ness' recovery MORE than Yoshi, because at the very least you can reuse your third jump, it gets good distance, and you're one hell of a projectile. Still not any good though, but at least you're not automatically screwed after a mistake.

Also, Yoshi's recovery beats Jiggs. Jiggs got bad range and crap vertical, so... And because her crappy final jumps, she's still got that "I'm screwed if I'm knocked away" going for her.

Yoshi ***** on the ground though. XD

 

[NixxxoN]

Yoshi's recovery ended up in mid tier in the recovery tier list thread.

 

[Superstar]

Note I'm not saying Fox's recovery is better than Yoshi. It isn't. It just doesn't have that sketchy downside. XD I noticed what I said can be taken to imply that Fox's recovery is better than Yoshi's.

Also, I like Ness on Kongo Jungle, I really do. XD

EDIT: Hmm, I'm actually unsure on Jiggs vs Yoshi. Jiggs has more distance, but Yoshi's recovery has more of a thrust...better play both of them more.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Well, to be fair, you weren't really debating with Koro, buuut.

You're right about what but, seeing as we where debating Yoshis recovery I simply assumed it was pointed towards that topic.

It's kinda good. You get good distance, and it's like a thrust when you use it [unlike Fox's startup time and steady movement].

You get a steady distance in an direction that's preset...giving you almost no real options.
(we are talking about his SECOND standard jump right?)

However, it's got that horrible horrible downside that once you're hit, you're screwed. It is possible to get around the edgeguard by stalling a bit and striking them as you come back, but that still doesn't beat the fact that it's horribly sketchy, and IF you mess up, you're dead. Meaning that although on the surface it's better than say Fox's recovery, at the very least Fox can reuse his third jump if he fails.

At least you counter your own debate with facts xP

and IF you mess up, you're dead

Not only if you mess up but, if your foe happens to have a longer range, higher priority attack, they can force this at low percents.

Also, Yoshi's recovery beats Jiggs. Jiggs got bad range and crap vertical, so... And because her crappy final jumps, she's still got that "I'm screwed if I'm knocked away" going for her.

Yoshi and Jiggly have the same recovery disadvantage, (if you pressure them, they can be forced into unrecoverable situations) but Jiggly has FAR more horizontal distance (with rising pounds) and plus pound can kind of be used to stop high priority attacks while you're recovering.


ALSO can you like to where this happened?

I am just saying its worse than jigglypuff's and its way to easily gimpable
at least luigi has a very long recovery, Samus has high priority, and DK has invincibility frames

 

[Superstar]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=198146&page=19

Page 19. Post 276. I just quoted it because it was a contradiction.

Eh, I meant it was kinda fast, so depending on the circumstance, you can stall the recovery and avoid the edgeguard. But, this can be done with any char [cept Fox/Ness, since Fox/Ness has that startup which lets the opponent prepare, and some others]. I haven't played enough Yoshi [**** its so hard to find matches these days], so meh, don't hold me to it.

Not only if you mess up but, if your foe happens to have a longer range, higher priority attack, they can force this at low percents.

So, this means Yoshi is more prone to counterpicks? If Yoshi has more range, his recovery is good, but if he has less, it's beyond horrible?

And when I said Jiggs recovery was better, AFTERWARDS, I managed to find some matches, where I used both Jiggs and Yoshi. Then I was unsure of my original statement, leading to that edit beforehand. Also, we were technically debating whether if one person does good does that affect the tiers.

And yes, I do believe Yoshi's recovery sucks. I just don't want to be black and white about it. Hell, I'm of the opinion that ANYTHING worse than Mario's sucks. XD

 

[Surri-Sama]

So, this means Yoshi is more prone to counterpicks? If Yoshi has more range, his recovery is good, but if he has less, it's beyond horrible?

Over 3/4 of the cast have a means fo pressuring Yoshis recovery, and dont blow what i said out of proportion, his recovery even minus the fact that you can gimp it, is nothing to be proud of, poor distance and its slow.

And when I said Jiggs recovery was better, AFTERWARDS, I managed to find some matches, where I used both Jiggs and Yoshi. Then I was unsure of my original statement, leading to that edit beforehand. Also, we were Originally debating whether if one person does good does that affect the tiers.

Things became more specific when Sheer questioned my statement about Yoshis recovery, then left you guys to defend it.

And yes, I do believe Yoshi's recovery sucks. I just don't want to be black and white about it. Hell, I'm of the opinion that ANYTHING worse than Mario's sucks. XD

Mario has one of the best so these are high standards xP

 

[Superstar]

Well, perhaps. I need to play Yoshi more to agree/disagree. Right now, if I tried, it'd be a "nuh uh" and "yuh uh" festival. But I do want to say:

and plus pound can kind of be used to stop high priority attacks while you're recovering.

Pound seems to have crap priority, but I think I'm comparing it to Melee. It never really seems to help, recovery is mostly "avoid the enemy", and I try to avoid using pound when I get close to the stage because it leaves me vulnerable, but I use it a lot when I'm far from the stage. I'd rather fastfall than pound.

Well, by originally, I meant latest. That was a stupid on my part.

Mario has one of the best so these are high standards xP

I think Mario in Melee sucks, and I main him. I have REAAAAAAALY high standards. XD

 

[Surri-Sama]

Well, by originally, I meant latest. That was a stupid on my part.

You said technically, i edit you're post xP

thats why its bold, italic and underlined

 

[Superstar]

Bah.

Jiggs pound priority still sucks.

 

[Coen]

Thanks for explaining infernovia

So Pikachu in SSB is more broken than any top tier char in Melee?

What about Kirby? I'd really like to know why he outcasts everything except for Pika.

 

[XtACY]

pikachu doesnt deserve to get that much credit

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Thanks for explaining infernovia

So Pikachu in SSB is more broken than any top tier char in Melee?

What about Kirby? I'd really like to know why he outcasts everything except for Pika.

This is why kirby is so good
Up Tilt
Aerial Combos
Second best recovery (?) besides Pikachu

Kirby is the easiest character in the game to use
Kirby has way too much priority and has disjointed hitboxes on multiple useful moves
Kirby's up tilt is probably the most broken move in smash 64

The only reason why pikachu is higher is due to pikachu's omgwtf recovery. It is too easy for pikachu to chain off the edge while kirby needs to be careful since kirby's recovery is not as good.

I still believe fox is better than kirby since fox has better approaches, has the most annoying projectile in the gane, and has better kills

Kirby is better at gimping also than most characters (down air spike, back air off the edge, forward air first hit, others)

and for xTACY, watch Isai or any other top pikachu
Pikachu has probably 0 counters and the only actually good recovery in the game
You seem to have a brawl signature so:
Pikachu for recovery is like metaknight
Everyone else for recovery is a mario or Link

 

[XtACY]

This is why kirby is so good
Up Tilt
Aerial Combos
Second best recovery (?) besides Pikachu

Kirby is the easiest character in the game to use
Kirby has way too much priority and has disjointed hitboxes on multiple useful moves
Kirby's up tilt is probably the most broken move in smash 64

The only reason why pikachu is higher is due to pikachu's omgwtf recovery. It is too easy for pikachu to chain off the edge while kirby needs to be careful since kirby's recovery is not as good.

I still believe fox is better than kirby since fox has better approaches, has the most annoying projectile in the gane, and has better kills

Kirby is better at gimping also than most characters (down air spike, back air off the edge, forward air first hit, others)

and for xTACY, watch Isai or any other top pikachu
Pikachu has probably 0 counters and the only actually good recovery in the game
You seem to have a brawl signature so:
Pikachu for recovery is like metaknight
Everyone else for recovery is a mario or Link

it said pikachu was a 10. hes not perfect. im not saying he isnt bad but id say like a 9.0
kirby and ness is the way to go

 

[Superstar]

Pikachu beats Kirby and Ness.

OMGWTFBBQ recovery is the reason. From what i've seen, Fox has better combos than Pika, it's that Pika can even combo OFF the stage that makes him broken. He can go ALL the way to the blastline [which is farther than in Melee], and STILL make it back.

And Fox/Falcon beat Ness. I still <3 Ness though. I'm THIS close to making Ness my main, but Fox is more likely to get the spot...I need some heavy duty Mario practice.

 

[Daedatheus]

Pikachu can kill Fox, fairly heavy, by simply Dair-usmash-utiltx6-usmash-down+b. Tell me how that isn't broken.

Heh...Anyway in terms of recovery, Ness and Kirby are easy to gimp in comparison. Add to that the fact that Pika can sweetspot the ledge Brawl style (instant ledge grab out of up+b, no falling/waiting required, however minimal).

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

even samus can beat ness and samus sucks in smash 64

its one of the few characters besides jigglypuff which samus does well against
Ness has horrible gimpable recovery and its way to easily to throw gimp him.....I find it easier to gimp his recovery than Link or falcon's.....at least they have something going for them

 

[Superstar]

Actually...I find Link's recovery easier to gimp than Ness, simply because if your character has a good throw, you don't even NEED to off the stage edgeguard him. At the very most you can grab the ledge. At least Ness gets good distance to try [although he's so vulnerable once he tries...I <3 Kongo Jungle when I pick him].

Falcon's recovery is better though, I admit.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Pikachu can kill Fox, fairly heavy, by simply Dair-usmash-utiltx6-usmash-down+b. Tell me how that isn't broken.

Heh...Anyway in terms of recovery, Ness and Kirby are easy to gimp in comparison. Add to that the fact that Pika can sweetspot the ledge Brawl style (instant ledge grab out of up+b, no falling/waiting required, however minimal).

You can very easily DI out of that first combo you said.

how many people do you know who can consistently Sweet spot with pika?

I find it easier to gimp his recovery than Link or falcon's.....at least they have something going for them

What exactly does who have going for them?

(Remember just because YOU find them easier to recover with doesn't make it so...Link has a far worse recovery ...less distance same predictability, same with Falcon)