Tier list alternative - Rate the characters! (experienced players only)

[Superstar]

Yeah I messed up...

Low percents: Ness >>> Mario

Should be

Ness >> Mario.

[Wanted to put >>>> so hard].

Most of the combos Mario can do at low percents are easy to DI out. But Mario can still grab *****, maybe get an edgeguard, and fireball pressure [with cries of CHEAP from scrubs >_>].

Your Mario would own my Mario. Would prove nothing. [And Surri, let him, he makes me lol XD].

And debates of this kind suck because it's all theorysmash. <_< And apparently I hear the combo Mario can do at 0% [which is easy to DI since it uses the tip of drills] can be used to break shields, so...Ness no longer has that advantage, IF that's true. >_>

 

[greenblob]

How feasible is it to do a DJC fair/nair chain with Ness? I see it in TAS vids all the time and occasionally in training mode combo vids, but I've never seen it in an actual match (other than the three-hit nair/fair -> nair/fair/uair -> dair combo).

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

you do realize that this topic is not just about whos better between mario and ness just by comparing.

Lets see the matchups

Who does better vs the other characters?

 

[Superstar]

I haven't quite figured out the matchups yet, even though I main both. I need to play more.

Vs Kirby, I find I have an easier time with Ness due to priority
Vs Pika, Mario may have an easier time due to recovery.
Vs Link, both are good against him, different ways. Mario edgeguards better and has some "fire" against Link's projectiles, Ness throws Link farther. Comboing, eh, both same, cept Ness can combo earlier better. Probably Mario.
Vs DK, gotta give Mario mad props. If there's anyone Mario can easily combo, it's him. Easier to set up uairs->usmashes which **** anything. Pretty big target too. Ness seems to have an advantage, not as good as Mario.
Vs Jiggs, dunno
Vs Fox, Mario ***** his recovery the best, but Fox pushes the limits of "Mario can't combo early but Ness can". Mario can't really uair juggle him until 50%. 0.o Fast little bugger with a shine too. Ness can **** his recovery with dair too, just...not as good as Mario. More or less a dunno.
Vs Falcon, about the same as Fox, but dunno realy
Vs Mario/Ness, I find Ness better in this matchup. More priority, mostly. On both sides, I feel better using Ness, and feel worse using Mario. I don't consider magnet a plus unless Mario is recovering, and Mario can just save the fireballs. Once Ness is off though, he's ded.

Eh, overall, dunno. <_<

 

[greenblob]

Mario destroys Jiggs. Jiggs can combo Ness.

 

[Tigerb0mbz]

FFS why dont you seriously think about what you're saying

YOU are obviously a top pro player, so your Mario would seem better then 99/100 Ness' ANYWAYS

... >_>

I could say go play Isai's Link, it'd own your Mario, is link higher then Mario? ...no i dont think so

ahahhahaha i TAKES IT!!! SNIFFFFF

 

[Superstar]

Thank you for that shir. I was thinking of rest combos. I got out sometimes as Mario.

Luigi might do better on Mario though. He seems to do better against floaties [Ness is light, but not as floaty]. However, I almost never get to fight Luigis, only thing I know is as Luigi I like fighting Jiggs.

 

[Roche_CL]

ness is worst than mario -_-
mario's UpB is pawnage, i think only disjointed attacks (on ground) can hit him, i've tried on mario dittos doing Dsmash, but it gets me before i can hit him.
now look at ness UpB xP, nuff said xD

now, who do you think is better between kirby falcon and fox?
i think it would be kirby>fox>falcon
but there are so many good falcons, and not so many good kirby players, avarage number of good fox players

it's just my opinion, but.... i think falcon's recovery is better than fox's.
you can really follow fox untill it starts the animation of the UpB and then hit it with whatever and he's dead
it has more range and you can angle it, but it doesn't really matter because you are dead before that xD

now...many GOOD falcon's know the trick against tipical edgeguard, they trick you, doing it without sweetspoting the ledge, they do it so they surpass the edge and grabs you before you can Fsmash, i tend to mess up, maybe it's just me xDD, but it mess up my timing because i think they are going for the ledge. if you anticipate it for that and they go for the ledge, you mess up the edgeguard.
I know the recovery is horrible and stuff, it's nothing compared to other chars like mario and pika....but i think that fox is the easiest character to edgeguard, and thats a very important point , specially for stages like DreamLand, and matchups against people who depend on edgeguarding (like me xD)

 

[NixxxoN]

Vs Falcon, about the same as Fox, but dunno realy
Vs Mario/Ness, I find Ness better in this matchup. More priority, mostly. On both sides, I feel better using Ness, and feel worse using Mario. I don't consider magnet a plus unless Mario is recovering, and Mario can just save the fireballs. Once Ness is off though, he's ded.

Eh, overall, dunno. <_<

Mario owns Ness and Falcon in matchups.
Do fireball spam on ness (prevent him from using down+b), grab him, throw him out, edgeguard, dead. Repeat
With falcon, its easier for mario to combo falcon than the reverse, and the fireball spam is hella annoying for falcon too.

 

[Superstar]

I admit fully to Mario owning Ness. >_< So easy for Mario to throw off and edgeguard, and Ness' combos of extreme **** don't work on Mario. More recently, I find it easier to be Mario in that matchup.

And I noticed that about Falcon, but both Falcon and Fox are easy for Ness to combo. Since Falcon is bad against floaties I hear, Mairo will do better against Falcon than Fox, while Ness is about the same versus both.

Also, after testing out combos, Ness' combos are different on every single character. I have to change up the moves to combo another character. 0.o Once I can combo better, this will mean that Ness is pretty difficult to use. Hell, the combos are different on Fox and Falcon alone [by one utilt and maybe another DJC uair, don't remember all the differences yet]. For some characters instead of 3x utilts, I need one utilt and multiple uairs. It's weird. But that might apply to other chars.

ness is worst than mario -_-
mario's UpB is pawnage, i think only disjointed attacks (on ground) can hit him, i've tried on mario dittos doing Dsmash, but it gets me before i can hit him.
now look at ness UpB xP, nuff said xD

WTF? Mario shouldn't be using UpB as an attack in the first place. I admit to it being better than Ness', but that's a HORRIBLE reason for Mario > Ness. I was thinking of making fun of the post saying it's awesome after a uair, but that's a disrespect.

On the bright side, us having tier debates speaks volumes about the game's balance.

Also, in my opinion is just a way of trying to avoid flamewars. Tharfore

it's just my opinion, but.... i think falcon's recovery is better than fox's.

They all get owned the same, but Fox's recovery is still > Falcon. More distance, more control, yar.

but i think that fox is the easiest character to edgeguard, and thats a very important point , specially for stages like DreamLand, and matchups against people who depend on edgeguarding (like me xD)

Nah, Link is. You don't even have to edgeguard him. Ness is also easier to edgeguard than Fox. The landing lag is so horrid.

 

[Roche_CL]

ness has no landing lagg if you point it downwards ¬¬, thats why i think his recovery isn't that bad, i've played good ness's and they know how to get on the stage, and you have to be cautios cause if you're hit by it you'll probably die at 50%+

i said mario's UpB was pawnage, i was referring that is almost the best recovery move (before pika's), it's priority is amazing

and i said that fox can be edgeguarded before he says "fire!" xD, so distance and more control isn't thaaat important, at least against character that can edgeguard well
if you say link...well, he won't be able to go and attack too far from the plataform.

link has worst recovery....but his UpB has nice range and priority, it's hard to edgeguard a good link (if the link is able to get to the plataform -_-), but if link is coming from below, then he is dead, cause the head is vulnerable, but that doesn't happen too much if the link is good, beacuse he knows that.

 

[NixxxoN]

ness has no landing lagg if you point it downwards ¬¬, thats why i think his recovery isn't that bad, i've played good ness's and they know how to get on the stage, and you have to be cautios cause if you're hit by it you'll probably die at 50%+

If ness uses the recovery downads and lands on stage, it means hes very close to the edge.... so all you have to do is stop him making the up+b (easy)

 

[Superstar]

Recovery isn't the only thing going into a character's performance. If it was, Link would be worse than Samus, and Fox/Falcon wouldn't be good. Sure, it's important, but not the only thing. Speaking of Mario's UpB though, I love spiking it. Mario's recovery isn't good JUST because of UpB, if he had no tornado or fireballs, and he Link's second jump, it'd be terrible.

and i said that fox can be edgeguarded before he says "fire!" xD, so distance and more control isn't thaaat important, at least against character that can edgeguard well

But, Falcon's is slower in travel. Both will get gimped regardless, but it is much easier to beat Falcon's than Fox's. And Fox's "Fire" doesn't take 2 minutes to perform, you can gimp him beforehand, but it's better than gimping Falcon before.

What Nixxon said. Only time UpB can be really done is pointing it upwards. Also, I know how to get on the ledge too...if the opponent sucks at edgeguarding. I fastall and grab the ledge. Someone good, however, won't let me do that.

 

[Roche_CL]

If ness uses the recovery downads and lands on stage, it means hes very close to the edge.... so all you have to do is stop him making the up+b (easy)

ummm, ness recovery has a loooot of range.... i don't think he has to be near the stage....
and if you jump too early and follow him and wait till he starts with the pk thunder (like i would do against a fox) the problem there, is the spike that has a very big hitbox and priority, can even hit you by the side. So you have to wait till he starts the animation, and then if you are too late, you can be hit by the attack

i know both falcon and fox are almost screwd when they get out of the ledge.....
it just seem to me more difficult when edgeguarding falcons because of the weird priority and grab range of the UpB, sometimes, you aren't even near him and it grabs you -_-

i have had many matches against good foxs and falcons (fireblaster, s2j), and the change from DL to Hyrule is much more notorious for the foxes (since its more difficult to get them out of the plataform).

but indeed you're right, recovery isn't all when stating tiers....
but what advantages has fox over falcon, or falcon over fox?
fox has lasers
falcon has wider dash dance (im not very sure of that, but i think it is)
falcon has better combo starters
fox has jab->Usmash
falcon has easier 0->death combos

what do you think on matchups against top tiers?
i think falcon has worst time against kirby
and fox has worst time against pika

whats the conclusion then xD?
what makes one better than the other?

 

[NixxxoN]

ummm, ness recovery has a loooot of range.... i don't think he has to be near the stage....
and if you jump too early and follow him and wait till he starts with the pk thunder (like i would do against a fox) the problem there, is the spike that has a very big hitbox and priority, can even hit you by the side. So you have to wait till he starts the animation, and then if you are too late, you can be hit by the attack

watch this, it will be better than me doing a long explaination:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J2QA5-A31o

 

[Superstar]

falcon has better combo starters

On the contrary, I'd rather Fox's. Fair, nair, dair start combos, dtilt and utilt are awesome for continuing them [sometimes starters too]. Falcon has, well, grab and dair, maybe uair on airbone opponents. Might be a few more [dunno fair and nair], but that's not really a valid comparison.

Fox also, I hear, does better against floaties. They're about even overall, methinks.

lol, video proves point. Every Ness player should know that if your second jump isn't enough, you might as well put down the controller. I can recover against nubs and people who take a puff of weed every time I'm off the edge. Not much more than that.

 

[greenblob]

Falcon can grab or usmash from almost any aerial at low percents. He still gets ***** against floaties.
Fox>Falcon

 

[NixxxoN]

Falcon can grab or usmash from almost any aerial at low percents. He still gets ***** against floaties.
Fox>Falcon

I quite agree, although Falcon is easier to use and to do combos than Fox.

lol video proves point.

See in the vid Sima is a great Ness player but he gets ***** when trying to recovery by Red Mario, and with not really much effort from him

 

[Superstar]

Indeed, that's why I admit that vs Mario, Mario wins.

Against Fox/Falcon though, or others with bad recovery too, what goes around comes around. >:D

EDIT: Ness's grab isn't too shabby, see? FThrow also equals bthrow in damage and knockback, and it's good to begin with.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Vs Kirby, Mario approaches better than ness overall. Kirby's work by abusing their priority. What is the easiest way to prevent this? Projectiles, as in Fox's laser and mario's fireball. Ness can't approach Kirby well and Kirby's Up tilt over Ness's up tilt. Frankly, this is one of Ness's worst matchups

Vs Pika, I agree.

Vs Link, Mario is better at approaching while its easier for Ness to gimp. If anything Ness because Ness's throws and combos really help. Also, Link's boomerangs can help vs Fireballs. Both of them do well though.

Vs DK, I agree. Both of them do well

Vs Jiggs, Mario. Mario's Up Smash kills INSANELY quick and Jigglypuff has problems with Mario's Fireballs. This is one of Jigglypuff's worst matchups.

Vs Fox, not sure either. Probably Ness for the reason you gave.

Vs Falcon, Mario. It is incredibly easy for mario to gimp falcon. Ness needs top notch combos but Falcon has better range. Did I forget to mention that all Projectiles over Falcon and Ness doesn't have a good projectile.

For Samus, Samus actually does somewhat well vs Ness. Ness can't combo samus well. Mario is more even.

Vs: Mario
Vs: Ness,
overall, Mario has better matchups regardless of Ness's Combo ability. Mario can approach characters WAY too well and his up smash makes up for any other hinderance. Ness just doesn't have the range.

 

[Superstar]

Ness having no range is a load of bull crap. And Mario's usmash making up any other hindrance is a bold statement. It doesn't. Usmash is very good, awesome, but it doesn't make up for his flaws completely. I will agree though, it is <3.

Vs Kirby, Kirby can pretty much block all of Mario's projectiles [with his insane hitboxes]. And trying to combo Kirby with Mario is risking death [if you can though, go for it, but starting up the combo is a bit of a pain]. At least Ness' priority makes the task easier. I still don't like fighting Korby with either though.

Rest, I agree. Especially Samus. And Jiggs. And Mario beats Ness 1v1 [his approach and edgeguarding = too good].

And, overall matchups don't mean too much when it comes to overall performance. Against the top half of the cast though, yeah. Bringing in Pokemon, who cares how Tyrannitar does against Pikachu, when it ***** most everything else? [That will go over most people's heads, but just know, Pikachu beats TTar 1v1 with brick break, but dies to Scizors Bullet Punch]

 

[MattNF]

Ness SUKS he's only decent against fastfallers cause of his utilt and uair bullcrap

EDIT: I have nothing of value to add to this thread, lulz

 

[greenblob]

Can this be done in a regular match?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5BaT8C6VAM

It doesn't seem all that complicated, and I think I've seen similar combos in non-TAS combo videos, but I've never actually seen it in a match.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Can this be done in a regular match?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5BaT8C6VAM

It doesn't seem all that complicated, and I think I've seen similar combos in non-TAS combo videos, but I've never actually seen it in a match.

Ive seen Sima do this...or at least something much like this....Nair works too

 

[NixxxoN]

Can this be done in a regular match?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5BaT8C6VAM

It doesn't seem all that complicated, and I think I've seen similar combos in non-TAS combo videos, but I've never actually seen it in a match.

Here it goes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8eKrDIAySQ

But I'm pretty sure that in the Japanese Version Ness is easier to handle.

 

[B Link]

Here it goes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8eKrDIAySQ

But I'm pretty sure that in the Japanese Version Ness is easier to handle.

i think it's not about ness being easier to hanlde, but the fact that there is alot less DI

 

[greenblob]

Well, then it looks like Ness has a reliable 0%-to-death combo on every character.
But I'm wondering why I never see this. All I see are your generic dair tech-chases and uair/utilt juggles.

 

[Superstar]

Sima has done something similar I think, but not the same. But doing that in a real match, especially online...you need to be some kind of beast. If I could do that, I'd win plenty more matches.

EDIT: Checking vid cause I was too stupid to watch it before posting. Wait for Edit.

EDIT 2: Seen it before, what I saw. Not the same.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Well, then it looks like Ness has a reliable 0%-to-death combo on every character.
But I'm wondering why I never see this. All I see are your generic dair tech-chases and uair/utilt juggles.

No one has a good Ness really...

The people with "good ness's" that you see online, are just people who play a VERY defensive game...

plus as stated playing a good offensive ness online is **** near impossible

 

[NixxxoN]

i think it's not about ness being easier to hanlde, but the fact that there is alot less DI

Sure that there's less DI, but also being Ness easier to handle and to do combos. I've tried him on the Japanese version and it seems easier for me

And Sima has the best Ness i've ever seen, wonder if he plays online

 

[craiigg]

lol there are more offensive ness' that spam DJC than defensive ness' what are you talking about

 

[Surri-Sama]

lol there are more offensive ness' that spam DJC than defensive ness' what are you talking about

lulz, waiting for someone to approach you while you spam is defensive >_<

 

[greenblob]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpxhmXWZkm8
There's one at 1:45.

 

[Gammelnorsk]

i like donger konger

 

[Fireblaster]

Maybe Ness is just a defensive character? I mean, that's what happens when you can't approach safely, right? You have to play defensive and smart.

 

[NixxxoN]

I think Ness is able to do both offensive and defensive. But in my case i have a hard time doing a good offense with him. Fast and consistent DJC spam is tiring lol

 

[Surri-Sama]

Maybe Ness is just a defensive character? I mean, that's what happens when you can't approach safely, right? You have to play defensive and smart.

I've been saying this for a while but people look at it and say "Ness is teh sux"

>_>

LEARN TO PLAY HIM

If people played Yoshi as they do most chars Yoshi would suck too...

 

[Superstar]

Spacing bairs is teh secks with Ness. :3

I don't mind defensive chars, my GGXX main is a defensive character. STUN EDGE STUN EDGE STUN EDGE!

 

[greenblob]

I dunno, I see people spamming DJC dair all the time, and that's all it takes to set up one of those combos.

 

[Daedatheus]

Spacing bairs is teh secks with Ness. :3

DJC allows for some really strange and unpredictable aerial movement, eg the backwards long horizontal jumps you can do with bairs and whatnot as an approach, flying horizontally across the flat parts of levels with your legs sticking out. Generally though I'd agree that Ness is best-suited to defense, and the combos he can initiate from a defensive stance are great.