This is dead, look for the new matchup thread. Be sure to read the rules.

[Roxas1988]

In the words of all snake players **** MK!!!! Seriously....

 

[Roxas1988]

I love the mortar throw combo use it on diddys all the time. The only annoying things is those god**** nanner spammers. but for that we got the Nades Yeaaaa

 

[Acedude55]

IMO

Snake v.s IC's is alot closer then it's made out to be.

IC's can pressure like a *****, snake is bad under pressure. Like, really bad.

Nade camp, tilt and zip to the other side with dacus all you want. IC's have the right tools to stop it all.

 

[SuSa]

I would argue otherwise.

I believe Hylian is picking up Marth as a secondary for Snake, because his IC's just can't seem to beat a (platform) camping Snake.

Ground, it's fair game.

Add a platform? GG IC's.

 

[mikeray4]

IC's can use thier uair not to hit nades. IC's have a very good KO moves. IC's vs snake is not 60-40. its more like 55-45....IC's uair ***** everyone,plus thier fsmash is and amzing ko move

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Snake doesn't need platforms to beat ICs. The thing with Snake is that the "one grab and ur dead" actually applies to the ICs. Snake can just seperate them quickly with fthrow/bthrow and then **** nana with fsmash. Ally does it all the time and there's nothing ICs can do about it. On the other hand ICs can't 0-death grab Snake if he does it right.

Obviously in Snake's favour...at least 6/4

 

[Nic64]

The IC that isn't being thrown is still free to attack Snake, and the IC's can also chain grab Snake away from his grenades before they detonate, he is not completely immune to chain grabbing.

I still agree with 6:4 though because he separates them and keeps them apart so well.

 

[Infern Angelis]

Platforms arent as safe as people think, ICs can still chaingrab on a platform(however snake can counter this by just having a grenade)

All snake needs to do is always have a grenade or be around one, dont make any risky movies against ICs, because it can easily cost u a stock

 

[SuSa]

Anyone who thinks Snake doesn't need platforms needs to talk to Hylian.

IC's go a lot easier once everythings on level ground.

 

[Infern Angelis]

I have seen Ally be at like 140%, Lain at 0%, 1 stock each. Ally stood on the smashville platform and started camping. Ally brought it back and won the match. Platforms can indeed help alot against ICs, especially the one in SV

 

[Hylian]

Yes they really do. IC's just don't have the tools to deal with nades on platforms coupled with C4 and jumping. On even ground, snake still wins and has a great grab game against them, but IC's have a TON more options and that alone just makes it easier. I can get grabs against any snake on the ground. Platforms...never :/.

Nades are pretty easy to cg away from as well. Just Dthrow -> Dthrow -> running pivot grab. I took Razers snake to game 3 at hobo17 because he thought nades would stop my cging lol.

Snake is IC's hardest match-up period. 65-35 or 70-30 on a platformed stage.

 

[Berserker.]

The worst part is that most stages have platforms but what about Rainbow cruise?

 

[Infern Angelis]

RC is so bad against ICs, and well enough for snake. Snake can get easy kills in almost any portion of the stage, and the lack of edges is a killer for ICs

 

[UltimateRazer]

Yes they really do. IC's just don't have the tools to deal with nades on platforms coupled with C4 and jumping. On even ground, snake still wins and has a great grab game against them, but IC's have a TON more options and that alone just makes it easier. I can get grabs against any snake on the ground. Platforms...never :/.

Nades are pretty easy to cg away from as well. Just Dthrow -> Dthrow -> running pivot grab. I took Razers snake to game 3 at hobo17 because he thought nades would stop my cging lol.

Snake is IC's hardest match-up period. 65-35 or 70-30 on a platformed stage.

Yeah then nana ***** you on delphino lol. I posted my thought on this match up in a different thread.....I'll find it later.

Also Carl, be prepared for **** since you refuse to MM me.

Edit: Found it...just a quick description.

Basically have nades around you, avoid being grab, **** nana, back throw one of them are fight the other off. It isn't that hard since you can also run from them.

Grenades stop their blizards and stuff...they have to approach..blah blah.

60:40 or 65:35 snake.

 

[Berserker.]

It's also a counter to Olimar right? Because of his recovery?

 

[Infern Angelis]

It's also a counter to Olimar right? Because of his recovery?

Yes, good stage to CP Olimar in since he gets ***** when he is not on the ground, just careful since Olimar can also kill you pretty easily there too due to low ceilings and sides

 

[Greward]

Olimar's high priority moves

please change that lol (its on the matchup summary)

 

[Vorguen]

Nades are pretty easy to cg away from as well. Just Dthrow -> Dthrow -> running pivot grab. I took Razers snake to game 3 at hobo17 because he thought nades would stop my cging lol.

This is true lol. I played Hylian in HOBO 19 and I was like "oh yeah baby here's my nade this grab won't matter"

*gets chaingrabbed far away from the nade*

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Ignore, this. My friend was logged into my account. 6Mizu will be posting shortly.

 

[6Mizu]

Against OLIMAR try Norfair,Frigate, and maybe just MAYBE rainbow(even though it sounds lik a bad idea).

 

[Berserker.]

Put him in places with not much ledges that's all

 

[The Cunning Weasel]

When will Lucario be rediscussed. He compliments my Snake and I could use some tips >_>;

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Olimar does fine against snake on rainbow cruise. We have a lot more places to run to with all the platforms around (in the bottom left section all the way until it gets to the pendulum, and the section without the walkoff is amazing for us and considering, well... we obviously can't get gimped and, as Infern said, kill you at much lower percents off the top. Landing an up smash on snake is difficult though, to be honest. Rainbow Cruise is bad for Olimar against characters that can chase him while he's getting back on his feet, moving from section to section. Otherwise the stage is actually... kinda good for us. Snake isn't as good at this as most characters, so RC actually becomes a good thing for Olimar due to the huge space and places to run to. The boat would definitely be the worst phase to face snake on, but even that wouldn't be too terrible, to be honest. Okay maybe it would.

And yeah, frigate's pretty good for you against Olimar. I suppose Norfair would be good as well, never really thought about that, tbh.

Olimar's high priority moves

 

[culexus・wau]

When will Lucario be rediscussed. He compliments my Snake and I could use some tips >_>;

Speaking of this.

Lucarios are discussing Snakes right now, if you wanna help be my guest

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=221578&page=124

 

[phi1ny3]

^Yes, please do.
We need your thoughts on the MUs, since we're rediscussing in more detail.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Toon Links are now rediscussing the Snake Matchup at our boards. Please contribute. Thanks .

 

[Berserker.]

How about if like out of no where, during the ascending, Olimar gets meteor smashed?
(Out of no where) Also there not much ledges. When Olimar sometimes might get sent upwards under a hard platform and he techs, he still might not be able to like grapple or recover and he'll fall unless a platform will save him -_- but it's a BAD for both of them that's what I know. But one question, why is the boat phase terrible for Olimar when Olimar is like campy like Snake?

 

[swordgard]

Anyone who thinks Snake doesn't need platforms needs to talk to Hylian.

IC's go a lot easier once everythings on level ground.

Lol , last i recall, ally doesnt need plats. Also, hylian has very strong opinions on alot of matchups without being able to back it up in tourney situation.


EDIT: Not saying hes necessarly wrong, just saying if hes so right all the time he should win moar.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

tips for fighting olimar

use grenades against oli you always want to cook them, never approach oli when you're at 0 without a grenade unless you like taking combo damage and if you do get grabbed at 0 after the first throw combo don't airdodge, jump out of the way, when you throw him off the stage and you know he's gonna recover plant a mine at the edge of the stage so he can't go past it then you'll get a free ledgehopped bair or dair.

i also know that if he needs to recover you can just stay on the ledge and take the hit even if you're at high percentage because i'm pretty sure with the right timing you can tech it and if you are bad at teching you can just pull a grenade shield drop it and pick it up then run to the ledge so that if he knocks you off the ledge and you are about to get stage spiked the grenade will blow you up.

they're little and may help only a little but i find these things to be match changers if i am behind lol because they can give you free stocks and damage, oh and if you predict that he's gonna whistle armor in the air nair him lol,

if you ever fight oli on ps one don't go near him on the windmill part ever, he will wreck you cuz he's stupid lol

 

[Eulss4]

hmmm, good stuff.

 

[MiniTroika]

Not meant to derail discussion, but any tips for Toon Link besides D-Throw tech chasing? All that works for me is throwing a grenade near him on the ground and one on the air and waiting for him to land after he airdodges :\

As for Olimar, I used to main him and I have experience with some crafty Snakes here in SoCal. Here's a few tips:

PIKMIN TOSS:
- If he camps and starts spamming Pikmin Toss, you can jab the pikmin away if you time it right. It won't kill them, it will either send them flying or they will fall to the ground (that animation where they fall, stand up and run back to Olimar). This can create an opening for a dash attack if it is unexpected.


LEDGE-GUARDING:
-At the ledge, Olimar is kinda screwed for recovery. You destroy his options from there:

1) He gets up -------- You can f-tilt him off the stage and back to the ledge
2) His get up attack is SLOOOOOOOW-----You're free to do anything to you; throwing him off the most preferred option.
3) He jumps-----Asta la vista baby. Snake's babies, Mortar and N-Air, will either hit him or force him to airdodge in which case you can punish easily with your range.
4) They will U-Air through the ledge to hit you away and to buy them some time. If you can time it right, you can run off when they let go of the ledge and B-Air to stage spike them. (Not recommended, but somewhat useful)

A word of caution: If Olimar tethers the ledge, his fast ledge attack is a lot easier to perform so be wary if you happen to be near the edge and he manages to tether the ledge.

WHEN OLIMAR IS TRYING TO RECOVER:
-Olimar's falling speed is a double-edged sword as it makes it a bit easier to recover towards the stage but makes his landing a pain the *** for him.

-Olimar's best option is to N-Air when he falls towards you on the stage. Just shield it and grab. You must be quick because if he whiffs it, he might be able to use a smash attack and push you away in your shield. But if you manage to get the grab, simply throw him off and repeat.

-As Olimar falls, he can't really afford to make a lot of risky moves that would make him require the second jump. As he's trying to make it back into the stage, set up explosives at the edge and use B-Air. It's long lasting hit box is sure to hit him if you time it right.

No need to repeat what others have said for the other edge guarding options

OLIMAR'S GRABS:
-They will be the bane of your existence. Obviously.
-It is possible to sidestep the grabs, but it really isn't worth it to try.

D-Throw:
-Jump out or else you can get set up for ugly combos at low percents. Some combos are:

D-Throw> F-smash > Re-grab
D-Throw> F-Air> Re-grab
D-Throw> U-Smash > U-Air x2 (Lovely combo I made that no one uses) (f.y.i it's a guaranteed 70% combo if the u-smash connects)

U-Throw:
-Olimar will only use this grab with Purple Pikmin. Everyone Know this already >:\
-As soon as the throw goes through, you're only chance for survival is to immediately perform your aerial as soon as you're let go along with other DI procedures and hope you live. (Though it is doubtful)

F-Throw or B-Throw:

-Now these two throws are more dangerous to your stock than D-Throw because they leave you in bad situations at any percent whereas D-Throw is only really good at lower percentages. Blue Pikmin have the strongest knockback and kill potential for this throw. Kills made by these throws are more likely as blue pikmin are much more common than purples and their grab doesn't break as easily (especially with that ******** range) They are also the fastest throws.

-If you get grabbed by a blue Pikmin, the likeliest throw is b-throw or f-throw. Olimainers will switch up to confuse you and mess up your DI. In this case, DI Up like you would the shuttle loop in the air to ensure that your DI will go through and not kill you if you guess incorrectly. Unfriendly DI FTL

HOW TO AVOID THE GRAB:
-Ok, not really, but there a few things to help you break out.

-Sometimes you can pull a `nade out and when they D-Throw, it will detonate it, effectively freeing you from the two foot menacing b@stard.

-If you're real close to Olimar and he's going for the grab, you can F-Tilt and it might go through. While Olimar grabs, he has no super armor, his pikmin do (WTH?) Abuse your range and it might hit him giving you some time to scram.


That's all I have to say on him.

 

[Berserker.]

CP brinstar since Olimar's dair is kind of useless due to the hazards and his recovery pretty much messes up there. Who spaces better, Olimar or Snake?

 

[MiniTroika]

CP brinstar since Olimar's dair is kind of useless due to the hazards and his recovery pretty much messes up there. Who spaces better, Olimar or Snake?

Olimar easily. If Olimar keeps spamming f-smash and grab, you're only real option is to use grenades.

Also, are you kidding me? Brinstar is a gamble. If he manages to control the stage, you're pretty much screwed. But it also works that way in your favor. Safer bets are Rainbow Cruise and Frigate. But even those two are alright for both parties. What does everyone think about Delfino?

 

[Berserker.]

Delfino I think it's bad, because of the water that well, Olimar can meteor smash you hard in water but so can you and Olimar has pretty good air games so it's pretty bad but there somethings good for Snake there probably and about brinstar, I was suppose to say frigrate

 

[OverLade]

That MK matchup description is pretty terrible.

 

[-Ran]

Haha, it is.

 

[napZzz]

That MK matchup description is pretty terrible.

this thing is so old.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

this thing is so old.

It is old, but some of the information hasn't changed I think.

Expect:
Up+B that can easily gimp Snake’s recovery and could easily cause a stock.
Quick aerials that can keep you locked into the air if not DI’d right
Quick speed that could disorient the Snake player.
Moves that can easily stab through Snake’s shield. Such as the down tilt.
Moves that can interrupt the Mortar Slide and punish the Snake player severely.
Large grab length.
An overall move set that can render Snake useless if not escaped.
Dash Grab to Down Throw to Short hop aerial chase.
Tornado spam which cannot be blocked easily. Be wary that once you learn to counter the tornado, the MK will not use it. Be prepared for short hopped aerials, tilts, and instantaneous smashes.

The thing I would change with expecting is change the whole pokey moves. From personal experience, I've never been poked through by MK against any of his moves except for Tornado (not even Dtilt :/) . And\ the tornado is easily solved by tilting up.

The other thing I would add is expect air camping, maybe even planking. The rest of that is pretty true still.

CPs just needs to add Halberd as stated, but more than likely it will be banned. Bans I think personal preference. I think any stage can be adapted to by Snake to counter MK. Really, the match-up is having MK chase you down as you try to defend on the go. Any stage can be used for that, you just have to change how you do it. Heck, I think JJ counters MK fairly well.

 

[Underload]

Just so you know, I don't go by time like most MU threads, I'll move on once once I get enough input for me to make a respectable summary. We're pretty much at that point.

Since RedHalberd complained about it, and I want his input, MK's up next. Go.

 

[OverLade]

Cool beans, I'd be happy to lay out some stuff.

For anyone who didnt know, I play a pretty mean snake myself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc3LkvERw0s

I'll post up some stuff tomorrow.