Theory: How to "easily" balance Melee

[Dragoon Fighter]

I am a horrible hacker so this is more of a theory rather than an actual project.

Anyway I think I thought of a way to make melee slightly more balanced with out changing to much. I think meteor smashes should be replaced with spikes, and hit stun increased to SSB64 levels.

The reason this will "Balance" the game is simple.

One: The Hit Stuns gives a lot more people Zero death combos. Even if the lowest tier had a zero death combo sure he/she will still suck, but he/she would be a lot more tournament viable than before.

Two: I hate meteor smashes when moving from SSB64 to Melee the fact a huge majority of spikes where removed was probably the one (of the three) changes I disliked the most. Now melee, in my opinion, made up for this flaw with in depth game play, power shielding, charging smash attacks, wavedashing, faster game play, and ect. It is my opinon that if meteor smashes where turned back into spikes that you would see many low-tier characters jump up into a slightly higher tier category.

Point Three: As you would of guess these changes are universal so as a result all the high tiers are buffed to. Now, if everyone can combo the other to death, then there is no 100-0 Match up (Unless Marth's stupid sword keeps him out of combo reach to that extreme.) This system of balance does not Nerf any of the high tiers, it upgrades them while trying to store character balance into melee.

Now this is just a theory. Think of it as a "what if this where" thread and do not take it to seriously. I would like constructive criticism however...

Just a thought: I think Fox would turn into a little monster in this setup now that I think about it. Oh, Well.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

everyone is to different in flaotiness and weight to 0 death. also everyone in the game can 0 death fox from just a grab. combos are the least of the problems everyone has their own problems. also the game over all is balnced enough so i can win even as kirby when they don't camp. melee is more balaced than brawl in everyway overall.

but some people I can seriously just sandbag and just spam moves without thinking. roy is terrible I swear you feel bad for him. and this is coming from me after playing against pichu as sheik and the pichu didn't know s***. but roy just CC anything that hits you and combo **** him.

 

[Zodiac]

Meteor smashes are more manageable than spike cause they can be canceled at any percent. having all spikes would break the game more. If the hitstun increased.... Again this game would be very broken.

this would not work, Falco's combo's would NEVER end, neither would falcons, or marths or jigg's or peach's or...any high tier character. the fact that low tiers still had bad moves and bad priority would them at even more of a disadvantage cause no one would ever let them use that increased hitstun.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I agree with the spikes idea, but think only lighter characters need more hitstun (a larger spread between heavy character's hitstun and light character's hitstun)

 

[MarioMariox2]

Looking at your post, this is basically a thread advertising Smash64. Not the there's anything wrong with it, it's just that the SSB64 section has been updated already.

 

[OkamiBW]

Instead of changing the physics, perhaps you could just change specific character's moves.

For example, you could change the following to make Pikachu a viable character:

-Give him a decent dash attack that doesn't leave him so laggy or at least can combo with it (like Fox's or Sheik's).
-Longer grab range
-Larger shield
-Usmash have the same properties of Fox (if a char is behind him, it hits them enough for him not to get punished)
-Dthrow have slightly more hitstun so he can combo out of it (like how Doc can Uthrow at first and then Dthrow)

Another example might be Kirby:

-Nair becomes 64 Nair
-Fair becomes 64 Fair
-Throws are inescapable (except maybe bthrow {off edge})
-Maybe even make his throws different so that he can combo out of them
-A better way to recover or something that gives him a mix up with recovery

If these characters became better, maybe you could fix some other things too like:
-Giving Sheik a decent Forward B or Down B
-Upping Nana's AI when she is not near Popo
-Giving Luigi a slight angle when he UpB's (like Marth)

And I would personally:
-Make all Peach's turnips the same one so that it's not as random (i.e. MacD's double bomb stitchface game against Axe {no offense, McCain, if you read this})
-Make Peach's Dsmash have strong hits for the first 3 hits and then the next 3 only do 4% or so
-64 gentlemans with Falcon
-Perhaps Rest not be a near guaranteed kill at 10%

 

[Iron Dragon]

Why "balance" Melee?

There's what...7-8 characters who are used a good amount?

That's a lot better than MvC2 can say, so I think we're pretty fairly balanced over here

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't play Melee to get 0 to death'd from one hit. That is what I expect when I play Smash 64.

/thread

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

I agree with the spikes idea, but think only lighter characters need more hitstun (a larger spread between heavy character's hitstun and light character's hitstun)

This is actually a really good point. I can agree with this.

Instead of changing the physics, perhaps you could just change specific character's moves.

For example, you could change the following to make Pikachu a viable character:

-Give him a decent dash attack that doesn't leave him so laggy or at least can combo with it (like Fox's or Sheik's).
-Longer grab range
-Larger shield
-Usmash have the same properties of Fox (if a char is behind him, it hits them enough for him not to get punished)
-Dthrow have slightly more hitstun so he can combo out of it (like how Doc can Uthrow at first and then Dthrow)

Another example might be Kirby:

-Nair becomes 64 Nair
-Fair becomes 64 Fair
-Throws are inescapable (except maybe bthrow {off edge})
-Maybe even make his throws different so that he can combo out of them
-A better way to recover or something that gives him a mix up with recovery

If these characters became better, maybe you could fix some other things too like:
-Giving Sheik a decent Forward B or Down B
-Upping Nana's AI when she is not near Popo
-Giving Luigi a slight angle when he UpB's (like Marth)

And I would personally:
-Make all Peach's turnips the same one so that it's not as random (i.e. MacD's double bomb stitchface game against Axe {no offense, McCain, if you read this})
-Make Peach's Dsmash have strong hits for the first 3 hits and then the next 3 only do 4% or so
-64 gentlemans with Falcon
-Perhaps Rest not be a near guaranteed kill at 10%

This would most definitely work as a Superior way to balance melee. I was just trying to balance everyone with the least amount of changes. You are right however this would be a better method.

Looking at your post, this is basically a thread advertising Smash64. Not the there's anything wrong with it, it's just that the SSB64 section has been updated already.

Um, I can see why you would think that, but that is not my goal.

Meteor smashes are more manageable than spike cause they can be canceled at any percent. having all spikes would break the game more. If the hitstun increased.... Again this game would be very broken.

this would not work, Falco's combo's would NEVER end, neither would falcons, or marths or jigg's or peach's or...any high tier character. the fact that low tiers still had bad moves and bad priority would them at even more of a disadvantage cause no one would ever let them use that increased hitstun.

@Paragraph One: Smash64 has by most standards has the most balanced tier list out of the three smash games yet it has the very same things you clam would break melee, why would it break melee and not SSB64?

@Paragraph Two: I do see you point most low tiers will still be low tiers with, in my opinion, the ability to be tournament viable. Also yes Falcon and Falco would be really scary wouldn't they .

 

[X1-12]

Basically all characters CAN get 0-death on fox from 'just one grab' thats not what needs changing the balance the game, its the ease in which they can get a grab

 

[Grim Tuesday]

@Paragraph One: Smash64 has by most standards has the most balanced tier list out of the three smash games yet it has the very same things you clam would break melee, why would it break melee and not SSB64?

Smash 64 is the most balanced game because it has the fewest amount of characters.
Imagine if you took every character out of Smash 64 except for the 12 bottom characters (excluding Gengar Tier). That'd be quite balanced.

I see you didn't address my point though, which was pretty much: They are different games. Changing Melee to make it more Smash 64 like would alienate a large amount of players.

 

[1048576]

It's like balancing ping-pong by making the table, ball, and rackets larger. You just created a different game.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

you know that pichu/pikachu same sheik's d-throw pichu's a liitle better but then they do this super lagy flip right that takes twice as long to use another attack. it's more about blanceing each charcter a lot.

 

[Jim Morrison]

No, I hate 64 as it is.

 

[SSBMLahti]

Meleee is already balanced, and the perfect game. Don't change what isn't broken (Puff is an exception).

 

[Zone]

I just think finding what makes low tiers so horrid and fixing it.

GnW: shield for example

and giving some of the low tiers pointless moves... some useage.

Zelda's din's fire is too slow. I'd rather have it work liike it comes out. and you get control of zelda and it's just a slow moving fireball that detonates when you touch it, or execute another din's fire causing the first one to explode prematurely.

or how DK's Down+B isn't used much. Perhaps make it so it comes out alot faster.

 

[Bones0]

A combination of small changes is probably the best. Buffer shield sizes, jumping frames, startup and slowdown time on certain attacks, etc. I would also suggest making spikes into meteors and then simply change the timing so timing meteor cancels quickly enough to recover is difficult.

 

[GroovyGreenHat]

As for the whole spike and meteor thing, what bothers me the most is that some of the hardest meteors to land aren't spikes, yet some of the easiest to land are spikes. Spiking with Marth and Falco is easy. Landing YLink's meteor is not nearly as easy, and it's hard to edgeguard with it because it's too laggy to safely do off the edge. It only seems fair that, if you are skilled/lucky enough to land YLink's meteor, it shouldn't be cancelable.
YLink is just an example. Roy (dair and DED), G&W, DK's headbutt, Luigi (dair and taunt), and Link and Peach's dtilts are other meteors that rarely ever land, so it's only fair that they're the best ones.

 

[CloneHat]

Weren't you involved in Brawl+? Surely you realize balancing the cast is a lot more complicated than three easy steps.

A lot of the suggestions such as fixing blatant character flaws are a lot more manageable.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

t's more about small details. G&W vs L-cancels and a sheild he could totally pull a puff his air speed is amazing and his bair is longer an d more disjointed and with better rates of ffing controlhe'd be hard to get under. and nair would **** anyone above him.

he'd go up to like mid tier at at least under current metagame but with more discovered he'd rise even higher. just a few details would make G&W pretty good.

for pikachu if you gave him a sheild and grab range he'd be ******** as f*** I prossible you.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Sorry for not responding my computer broke so I am using a school computer. I will not be able to respond for about a week . Thank you for your understanding.

 

[Oracle]

While melee isn't balanced, ssb64 is not the best model to use for a balanced game :/

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

While melee isn't balanced, ssb64 is not the best model to use for a balanced game :/

Maybe, I was looking for a simple and effective model. I am sure there is a better method but I can almost guarantee you that it would be a lot more complicated.

A combination of small changes is probably the best. Buffer shield sizes, jumping frames, startup and slowdown time on certain attacks, etc. I would also suggest making spikes into meteors and then simply change the timing so timing meteor cancels quickly enough to recover is difficult.

I can agree to this.

Smash 64 is the most balanced game because it has the fewest amount of characters.
Imagine if you took every character out of Smash 64 except for the 12 bottom characters (excluding Gengar Tier). That'd be quite balanced.

I think you mean melee right if I took 12 characters out of smash bros 64 I would have zero characters. If I took melee and picked the original twelve from the previous game and put them into a new game with the same physics and move set Kirby would still suck and purin would still be god tier. Further more physics has a huge impact on character balance even more then the number of characters (Though you are right that does have a huge impact as well.) For example let us take SSB64 Pikachu and SSBB Metaknight...

They both have the following...

Insane Edge Guarding
Near Impossible to Edge Guard
and importantly NO BAD MATCH UPS AT ALL! THERE IS NOT A SINGLE MATCH UP THAT IS BAD FOR SSB64 PIKACHU HE WINS BY INCREDIBILITY NOTICEABLE PERCENT. Same with SSB64 Metaknight.

Now most people can agree that metaknight is insanely powerful and many people wish him banned. Now no one that I know of believes we should ban SSB64 Pikachu. Why is that?

I see you didn't address my point though, which was pretty much: They are different games. Changing Melee to make it more Smash 64 like would alienate a large amount of players.

I did not realize that you were trying to make that point. This is just theorizing IF this where to actually happen I would think of it being more like Brawl+, No one is going to force you to play it nor will it ever replace melee's tournaments, at most it will in probability if it did ever become something, would be a side event at tournaments.

Sorry for not responding I have had computer troubles as of late.

 

[Laijin]

In other words, more people should play 64 huh

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

In other words, more people should play 64 huh

What? No, people should play which smash game they like. I am just trying to theorize on an easy way to balance melee I.E. balance it with the least changes.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

Melee is probably 72% Balanced with the rest being exploits and whatnot.
If there was a way to tweak Pichu's stats into a balanced character (putting him into at least Mid Tier) while keeping his gimmick around (self-damage) that would be awesome.

Probably goes something like this:
-Increased Grab Range
-Increased Jab Range
*Idea from Pichu PSA hack - Down Taunt makes you recover 5%
-Increased Hitstun
-Retains all self-damaging moves (or maybe exclude Quick Attack if you want)
-Decrease UpSmash Knockback? (balancing something kinda overpowered)
-Add a little weight (or maybe not)

I love playing all three games but I'm the type that likes all of it being balanced
64/Melee/ex-Brawl/Brawl+ and soon Project:M (not advertising btw xD)

 

[Wretched]

Okay, lemme just say:
Melee is unbalanced?

 

[gm jack]

Fox's tournament viability vs Pichu's. Your call.

 

[Wretched]

It matter if you're anther.

 

[Laijin]

Pichu is viable.
Its just people have not unlocked his full potential yet.
duhhh.

Just ask Insane Crazy Guy. He has all the answers.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Fox's tournament viability vs Pichu's. Your call.

This can be said for, like, any fg ever.

Honda's viability vs Makoto's

Mk's viability vs Ganon's

Yun's viability vs Sean's

Akuma's viability vs birdie's

O.Sagat's viability vs Cammy's

Lord Raptor's viability vs Anakaris'

Bang's viability vs Rachel's

Eddie's viability vs Johnny's

etc.

 

[Laijin]

uhh...Johnny is pretty ****ing viable.
ggs.

 

[Steelia]

While meteors-to-spikes would benefit one or two characters, like Mario and Mewtwo......... Ganondorf... with a spike? Broooooke. He'll jump a tier or two with that alone. XD

Change up some of the CHARACTERS, not the entirety of gameplay. Change up the gameplay, it will effect EVERY-one. Change up ONE character's mobility/attack/defense strategies... you're onto something. So long as they improve, then people will benefit.
Or, you just change up how the highest tier'd characters work, dumb them down a little (I hear PAL's pretty infamous for that), and... that might work, too. Piss off a lot of people, but it WOULD benefit the lower tiers.

 

[ETWIST51294]

uhh...Johnny is pretty ****ing viable.
ggs.

Yes he is but how many tournies do you see Johnny win??? He never wins tournies. Eddie still destroys him in terms a viability same with testament.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

While meteors-to-spikes would benefit one or two characters, like Mario and Mewtwo......... Ganondorf... with a spike? Broooooke. He'll jump a tier or two with that alone. XD

Ganondorf already has a spike.

The low tiers that I was thinking of when I made that recommendation was Kirby and Roy. I know Roy already has one Spike and two meteor smashes however if Roy had 3 Spikes he might have a little better time finishing his opponent.

Also Mewtwo with spike would be awesome XD.

Change up some of the CHARACTERS, not the entirety of gameplay. Change up the gameplay, it will effect EVERY-one. Change up ONE character's mobility/attack/defense strategies... you're onto something. So long as they improve, then people will benefit.

You are right this would be a better method.

Or, you just change up how the highest tier'd characters work, dumb them down a little (I hear PAL's pretty infamous for that), and... that might work, too. Piss off a lot of people, but it WOULD benefit the lower tiers.

I disagree with nerfing people for the same reason that PAL is infamous, what should be done is upgrading the low tiers to equal the high tiers.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Ganondorf already has a spike.

No he doesn't. That's a meteor. Please don't say I'm wrong. I've had this discussion before and it ended up with me asking kage.

 

[TheGoat]

Increasing hit lag would be an incredibly stupid idea, just no. There is enough hitlag as it is.

In my opinion, the gameplay itself does not need to be changed; it's terrific. Rather, characters need to be nerfed/buffed, and only a couple glitches fixed (IC's infinite, ghost hits)

I think it would be nice to get the very low characters at least to a viable level. For example, bowser. Reduce lag on all of his aerials, decrease the lag on his upsmash and make it stronger (pika stronger than bowser WTF), and change his fire breath somehow so that it can be a really good projectile. Give his nair a bigger hitbox, make it faster to start up, and give it more knock back. Oh and give his uthrow some serious chaingrab viability.
Already, bowser would be at least playable. We've seen gimpyfish and others try so hard with bowser, but there really isn't much charactes like him and kirby can do.

Take a look at doctor mario. Yes he is pretty low on the tier list, but take a look at, say, Shroomed. He does very well in local tournaments, because doc is at least very viable. I think if all characters could at least be at that level, ssbm would be perfect.
Also minor buffs to non top/upper tier characters would be cool

As for nerfs; only a few not to screw up the metagame of characters that has been evolving for years.
I.e., nerf fox's upsmash and upair, increase the lag one perhaps one of marth's moves, and maybe something small for shiek.

I think if we could do that ssbm would last a lot longer. Of course there is the problem of distributing such a modification. Still, nice to think of it.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

No he doesn't. That's a meteor. Please don't say I'm wrong. I've had this discussion before and it ended up with me asking kage.

Oh, my bad (I am no ganon expert). I am wrong.

 

[P.C. Jona]

ban every character except for captain falcon

it would be incredibly balanced, entertaining

and the game wouldnt be gay anymore

sounds like a good idea to me

 

[X1-12]

No he doesn't. That's a meteor. Please don't say I'm wrong. I've had this discussion before and it ended up with me asking kage.

You are talking about down+B right?