Social The Zero Suit/Samus in Shorts Social

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I'm sad at the lack of mention of bair pressured.

Bair is fine.. as crossup. Setting up a straight up bair is more often than not transparent and easily reacted to. thats why nair is often better even if your back is turned to the opponent, it stops rolls meant to counter bair / wavebounce nB, and catches spotdodges way more often than bair ever will

Disagree with you on zss's oos options. They are amazing. Up b hits all the way to the ground and is a frame 4 oos option. Having jab, utilt, usmash, and even grab.

upB is an amazing option but is also risky in that u need to instantly recognize if upb will hit - i.e. a sheik spacing fair properly. if you do not recognize her spacing as punishable instantly, you will upb, hit maybe just the first hit or none at all, and eat a yung phat punish. a lot of chars have moves that toe the line more often than not. AND EVEN THEN you can hit an upb and not get the final hit and some chars can still punish you LOL

jab is a decent oos option except against the many low profilers on the roster ew
utilt is more of an anti-air, idk when ever i would use it oos tbh
usmash is a decent option if they REALLY ****ed up their spacing or if u predict them to jump after their aerial at which point why even consider it an oos option any more than jump zair lolol
grab is a decent oos option in very specific scenarios (read: moves with big shield pushback)

IAlso we can kill greninja because I feel Bair is our most important kill move and that still works.

finally i will be thoroughly impressed if you hit a bair on a competent greninja outside of a hard read LMAO. it gets beat by lasting hitboxes, or if greninja feels cheeky, fair disjoint beats it too. most greninja will just take the uair/usmash in the mixup (if that) rather than airdodge in such an obvious way that a character with a bair that stays out for a few frames can punish it consistently. in what scenario ever will you land a bair tbh? i know i get most of my bair kills by outtiming/outspacing other peoples aerials, good luck doing that against greninja esp since his body gets smaller for i.e. his nair too

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

also imo people should learn ledgedrop > jump+zair so that it hits crouchers all the way to like 1/3rd of the stage. its legit broken esp in combination with our upb reaching super far (and if hit setting up uair strings) even when edgegrabbing and sideBcancel+downb. we probs have the meanest ledgegame outside of customs villager lol

 

[Deleted member 189823]

her neutral is a combination between paralyer/nair/zair for walling/zoning. falling uairs for aerial approaches against some chars (utilt/usmash if you r grounded), and NOT CHALLENGING SHIELDS. (read: using defenive options (i.e. downb, rolls) to reset the situation)
see, you're right that nair is very punishable on shield safe for good spacing, thats why empty jumps are gdlk. If you see a shield as zss, you need to let it be. short hop > downB instead of aerial if they go for a shield approach - reset back to midrange and overwhelm. the trick is that you can never win a game purely with defensive options. eventually they are going to have to attack/grab, and that is where you beat them. that and because of ur godlike midrange game u can punish them trying to approach

you do have things you can do on shields. well spaced aerials, CROSSUP AERIALS have been the crutch of my pressure game (learning crossup nair with the backwards hitbox is gdlk cuz it punishes rolls too), ftilt, spaced dsmash, zair, charged paralyzers at range...

our oos is... decent. any character with a low profile dtilt can pretty much destroy our shield with dece spacing tho lol. think sheik, pikachu... outside of that, we have no lasting hitboxes to **** with spotdodges/rolls/airdodges, so that is a matter of requiring crazy on point tech skill to punish consistently throughout a day of playing.

see matter of fact is that zss struggles with defensive options (shield, invulnerabilities, low profile). learn to work around them rather than try to work through them and you're golden.

i think our worst mus are greninja (cant kill: his aerials have lasting hitboxes > cant really bair/fair // upb can be combo broken with substitute i think it is + he destroys our midrange with shurikens, has good offensive pressure with low profile and tilts), pikachu (a pika that doesnt use jolts and pressures with tilts), sheik (good fair spacing = unpunishable even with upb, low profile, hard to kill cuz lasting aerial hitboxes), and i can see the case for post-patch DK, with a bit of rage he kills with a grab from 70-80% - tho we win the neutral really hard.
outside of that, mus like capt falcon, ness, & mario are EXTREMELY swingy cuz while you generally win neutral, they kill so well (esp mario with roll usmash against short hops) and rage can change the outcome drastically.


just to come back to dair for a second, @Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ where do you find the info when dairs hitbox comes out? I just don't see why it'd have to be after those 4 frames of landing lag instead of occuring before that

You've given me such a different outlook on ZSS. See, having had always use characters that rely on solid ground game (Bowser, Yoshi, Ike, for example), that's usually my go-to. Being around shields, being inside one all the time, that's just what I've always done.

I put the most hilarious metaphor to describe my relation with ZSS as a character:

"ZSS is like that one girl you have little to nothing in common, but you just really want to make it work"

She's just super fun to use, and I really do feel like she packs a huge punch once you get in.

 

[Shaya]

So I just read this on the Sheik boards, but apparently Bouncing Fish can be used as a momentum cancel that can help Sheik live certain moves for around 5% longer in some cases.

Seeing as Flip Jump is faster start up (I believe), it's feasible we could get similar benefits. Anyone feel like checking that out? :3

 

[NickRiddle]

I've been doing it, it definitely helps.
The exact % I don't know though.

 

[Trifroze]

At 120%+ it helps by like 2%, bouncing fish I've heard is something like 4-5%.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Hey @ DeLux , saw your games from HYPE! GO, congrats on getting (tied) first. Your uAir usage throughout the tourney was amazing.

 

[DeLux]

Hey @ DeLux , saw your games from HYPE! GO, congrats on getting (tied) first. Your uAir usage throughout the tourney was amazing.

I moved to CA and haven't played in almost a month, minus one doubles tournament a few weeks ago. Gotta get back into it

 

[Tito Maas]

Hey guys, the Pit boards are discussing the ZSS matchup. Please come and contribute to our discussion; we'd like to have as much insight as possible!

http://smashboards.com/threads/batt...n-sheik-zero-suit-samus-pikachu.414936/page-2

 

[MoosyDoosy]

I literally cannot go on the ZSS forums without my parents looking at my screen suspiciously because of all the profile pictures.

 

[Shaya]

I literally cannot go on the ZSS forums without my parents looking at my screen suspiciously because of all the profile pictures.

I'm sorry for your loss
Haha, I can understand it though. There should never really be anything "bad" here though. ZSS boards are a based place to learn things though.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'm sorry for your loss
Haha, I can understand it though. There should never really be anything "bad" here though. ZSS boards are a based place to learn things though.

It's not Zelda board bad, that's a plus.

 

[Otterz]

I literally cannot go on the ZSS forums without my parents looking at my screen suspiciously because of all the profile pictures.

My bad~

 

[ぱみゅ]

Don't apologize for Jewelry Bonnie.

 

[Trifroze]

I'll bring in some balance

 

[Shaya]

Attack | DMG | ShieldStun | Fresh | Mod | Att | Diff | Hit Frame | Duration | Ending | AC Frame | Landing Lag | Full Action | Auto Cancel | Landing
Nair | 10 | 4 | *+ | 1 | 1 | -5 | 10 | 7 | 51 | 42 | 10 | [-36,-42] | [-28,-34] | -11
Forward Air1 | 5 | 2 | *+ | 1 | 0 | 0 | 6 | 2 | 46 | 38 | 16 | [-37,-38] | [-30,-31] | -14
Forward Air2 | 7 | 2 | | 1 | 0 | 0 | 16 | 2 | 46 | 38 | 16 | [-27,-28] | [-20,-21] | -14
Back Air | 12 | 4 | | 1 | 0 | 0 | 8 | 2 | 39 | 31 | 11 | [-26,-27] | [-19,-20] | -7
Up Air | 8 | 3 | | 1 | 0 | 0 | 6 | 7 | 33 | 25 | 9 | [-18,-24] | [-11,-17] | -6
Down Air1 | 6 | 2 | | 1 | 0 | 0 | 14 | 36 | 67 | 50 | 30 | [-16,-51] | [0,-35] | -28
Down Air2 | 5.5 | 2 | | 0.3 | 0 | 4 | 1 | 2 | 30 | | | [-22,-23] | |
Grab Air Sour | 3 | 1 | | 1 | 1 | -4 | 9 | 10 | 59 | 59 | 8 | [-44,-53] | [-45,-54] | -11
Grab Air Sweet | 6 | 2 | | 1 | 1 | -4 | 19 | 1 | 59 | 59 | 8 | [-42,-42] | [-43,-43] | -10

Obvious implicit applications:
Neutral Air - only landing; technically safer to land with the hitbox out covering low to the ground in front horizontally WITHOUT hitting shield than hitting shield. My anti-neutral nair rhetoric makes mathematical sense~

Forward Air - auto cancel on rising jump worthwhile, otherwise always landing. You want the second strike hitting in that shield pressure. It's not noticeably worse than Neutral Air in frame disadvantage. Similar combo potential to back air while stringing moves together in the air; with weaker knockback and sakurai angles, you should be looking for opportunities to string fairs together

Back Air - landing is most optimal in most cases but auto cancel is worth going for if you're retreating with it. ACing it for combo strings is awkward because it doesn't sit within our SHFF (24 frames) and regular SH (39 frames). Hopefully will figure out a visual indicator for this at some point, but in the mean time... probably just fast fall it.

Up Air - has our most variation of timing within our jump over any other move. Our SH Rising FF Uair auto cancels. However; staying in the air after hitting someone with an up air will rival the speed one can get in another aerial while auto cancelling. If you hit with the backside of up air, staying in the air will always be better. If you hit with the front side ACing into a full hop uair will be faster but the windows which follow ups will come naturally here are small. Auto cancel up air is optimal air dodge frame trap, which will be forcing an air dodge at a height that they can land without lag, but you'll be some 15 frames ahead of them in the process. Another point is that rising up air can hit standing targets on the ground, even more so if they're shielding (as it extends hurtbox stuff), another tick to it's dynamic abilities. Fast Fall Up Air is our safest move on shield and is easier to space ON SHIELD than people give it credit for (SH FF uair well spaced will tap a shielding pikachu safely); this realisation that it isn't easy to hit grounded opponents but if they're shielding it's significantly easier and if we're well space landing up air and it does whiff we're not suffering much lag. Spacing moves assuming hurtbox extensions from shielding or attacks is generally the smartest way to play and keep yourself safe.

Down Air - oh yay our safest aerial on shield guys, best spam it.!!! If people could figure out the height ZSS has to be to auto cancel dair naturally I'd say we're in business, but otherwise I think you'll only be getting that if you try down airing in knockback momentum and stall. Either way, for a landing hitbox aerial, this is one of the safest in the game. It can be done 1 frame before you would otherwise touch the ground and give you the full dair in it's glory... as a vertical stall it's not very dynamic but it's a vertical stall nevertheless, it can be used.

Zair - yeah you want to land with it guys.

 

[Trifroze]

I'd like to point out / add that nair and bair on shield can't be punished by anything in the game because of their range and low landing lag, but especially nair needs to be well spaced for that if you want to avoid something like Sheik's dash attack. Not to say you should never worry about hitting shield with them since the opponent can dash in, shield and slide closer to you depending on their (lack of) traction while you're SHFFing to making it hard to predict when they're going to do that and thus how far they'll slide, but since whiffing nair completely is also very safe (don't have to go through that massive electric hitlag) it doesn't really matter as long as you'd rather space it too far than too close to them.

It's a shame nair doesn't autocancel. Using it out of a rising shorthop and then retreating is really good for stuffing out your opponent's aerial approaches without risking a trade like you do with fair, and it outranges sword characters (probably all of them and all their options except Shulk). If only you didn't have to go through those 10 frames of landing lag every time.

 

[Probalo]

Hey guys, I just started playing Zero Suit recently, and I really love playing her! Expect to see me around here

 

[David Viran]

Congrats to @Nairo for winning umbre fat. You played well. Maybe even too well.

 

[PEACE7]

Any of you guys play online and willing to help me gain some mu exp?

 

[Peahnuts]

So just hopped off from reading the last 10-15 or so pages of the competitive impressions thread, and I now have a strong annoyance for the Smash 4 community. And if the balance team is thinking anything remotely similar to the community (such as the Diddy outcry), R.I.P. our character - and my interest in this game.

 

[David Viran]

The worst nerf possible imo is a bair nerf. I will cry if it happens. I love that move.

 

[Peahnuts]

The worst nerf possible imo is a bair nerf. I will cry if it happens. I love that move.

If they nerf flip kick or boost kick, the only reliable kill move becomes bair. If they touch bair, then they remove the arguably safest kill move for a character that is already deemed high risk (for high reward).

I still stand by how ZSS and Mario serve as two of the best examples of well designed characters that don't need to be touched. (at least in Smash 4)

 

[Otterz]

Isn't ZSS widely considered the most balanced Top/High Tier? There's absolutely no need to change her, for better or for worse.

 

[Trifroze]

ZSS has gone unnoticed since 1.0.4 despite having success in Japan with all the same tools we saw in Umebura anniversary. The development team certainly doesn't pay attention to the viability impressions topic here, and while there may be nerfs I doubt it'll be anything that's not justifiable. If they ultimately decide to do something like add endlag or landing lag on her combo/setup tools or nerf bair damage to ~10% though then I sure hope they compensate for it by at least fixing up b linking and RCO lag, bair sourspot deadzone and side b in general.

Then again we don't know if a balance patch will even happen and whether there will be time to take Umebura FAT into account. It didn't look like Sheik's domination in EVO and CEO made it to 1.1.0.

 

[Shaya]

If Up Air and Back Air were 1 frame faster start up (with their current animations), Forward Smash adjusted to hit grounded low height characters better, and maybe down tilt being more worthwhile I would take A HELL of a lot of nerfs otherwise. Straight power behind her is great and we have a dynamic and well balanced kit overall, but I would take easier use of some of our tools (that take skill for a player to implement) over stuff that gets easy/instant QQ like down b or boost kick (although none of it was even remotely "crazy" from my perspective... heh).

I don't think the impressions thread went crazy for 15 pages... did we?

 

[NeoSeth]

I will say, I do have those irrational (But are they?) fears of the nerfhammer. In a way, ZSS does make the game for me; I can't imagine I will enjoy the game at the competitive level if she is nerfed.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I watched Shockwave 48 tonight and saw Dakpo ledge trumping to follow with nair when his opponents rolled. I got curious and I checked that out.

Ledge roll for Sheik is 49 frames long, with the last 16 being vulnerable. ZSS must hold the ledge for a minimum of 20 frames (though... isn't grab via tether shorter? I'll check it or something later). If she can get to her foe in 20 frames or less, the neutral air is guaranteed.

Also, I wonder if just standing from the ledge is undervalued right now. ZSS' climb is 34 frames long with ONE vulnerable frame at the end. That's kinda rad. Though in fairness, the position you get isn't great, so there's that.

 

[Shaya]

1. Very very old Tuen, lol
2. Our minimum hold is 15 frames IIRC. If we don't ledge snap and have a jump we can tether cancel jump nair on stage even faster I think
3. Most characters are similar and from what I heard there's a buffering issue with it? Either way everyone's already been playing a game that involves ledge get ups being super safe and needing to be punished for almost a year. Now ledge drop stuff for us in general is where we're under explored (beyond just trump set ups).

How about the ledge trapping power of charging a paralyzer on a read/habit observation of people's usual ledge get up times, react to the getting up by releasing said paralyzer.
Result: can cover both ledge roll on, get up and attack before they can act likely very close to guaranteed hit. If they get up into shield in time we have a solid frame advantage on them too.

There's an optimal position for this required, and feinting people by dashing forward and doing a reverse wavebounce grounded paralyzer to move "back" into where they would roll into is a pretty hilarious hyper-effective bait.
Edge guarding was likely my strongest aspect in Brawl; I'm roughly considering whether or not a play style that involves "camping" near the ledge ALA M2K in Melee would be something I could master and lame-out with ZSS.

 

[Kuber]

Just a quick reminder, that we recently created a Zero Suit Discord group (~50 members already in there).
We have created a vast match-up database that needs filling, also a #data_and_tech channel, where we collect all important tech data on ZSS. Check it out, it's a neat place to share, collect and discuss data!
Just click here to try it out, it runs in your browser (click here for desktop app download) -> https://discord.gg/0X4MTAUCvFEWCfvw

It also has a slick mobile app - I ditched the janky Skype app for that.
Also free teamspeak-like voice chat.

(The link is also in the skype group title, this is not some rogue operation)

 

[PEACE7]

Shaya you main ZSS now???? Never thought i would see the day where you would leave Marth.

 

[Shaya]

Marth mains are forever.

ZSS was the most complementary character to Marth (has Falco traits too: my other smash character) I could find upon WiiU release. Instant synergy and not long after, heaps of enjoyment.
Marth is a lot stronger now than back then (imo was a bottom 5 character), but he's by no means top tier.

 

[RandomGuySheep]

Ya'll ready for the nerf or what?

 

[David Viran]

Nerfs where? You talking about the balance patch that hasn't even been confirmed and on a character who they haven't touched in almost a year?

 

[NickRiddle]

Nerf her to the ground
Just give me back Brawl d-smash
plz&ty

 

[Zelbur]

Yeah, since buffs are kinda out of the question, I don't want them to touch her.

 

[Probalo]

Zero Suit is one of the few characters in Smash 4 who I feel has been balanced since the base version. Hopefully she doesn't get nerfed.

 

[RandomGuySheep]

The time to main Sheik is now. That's all i'm sayin'

 

[miniada]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...gsybibaaYwQ4rLLZg&sig2=sbpdgkrpoSad-iCQDT3y6g we are discussing zss and would love your input

 

[David Viran]

THERE WAS A CHANGE IN THE SHIELD STUN FORMULA INCREASING IT! We need to find out how much this affects our safety on shield.